Normal N behavior?

[el]

I am pretty sure that my mother is a N but am confused about it as well.  I am new to this so excuse my ignorance on the subject.  I have just ordered a couple of books and have started researching the subject extensively.  I was physically, emotionally, verbally, (believe it or not, even to some extent sexually!) abused by her during my entire growing up years.  She continues the abuse to this day (verbal, emotional).  But, I come from a family of 8 other siblings and one thing that she would do and continues to do is pit us against the other.  Some of us were abused and some were not.  This is one of the maddening aspects of this.  Not that I would want anyone else in my family to receive the same treatment as me but it adds to her "crazy making" of me.  When I try to talk about why, after a N episode,   "I just can't talk to my mother right now" to one of my siblings, some of them "just don't get it" as it does not happen to them.  I have one sister in particular who my mother favors.  She has two children who my mother considers "hers" (not kidding, she even had the oldest calling her mommy for a while.  My sister just shrugged it off as "crazy mom acting silly").  Is this a N trait?  Can someone still be N but treat some people fine and pinpoint who they will attack, gaining the support from those that are not attacked i.e. my mother will tell a non abused sibling that  "el is so mean to me" after she instigates to no end and I finally say one thing to stand up for myself.  Whatever it is that I say is used against me in her campaign to smear me.  But another siblling can say/ do the same thing and she ignores it or laughs or whatever.  Really, am I going crazy here?  Is this normal N behavior?

[Philski60]

Hi El,

Welcome to this wonderful resource.  I am fairly new to this too and really identified to what you described in this post.  What I'm finding out is if it looks like a duck, acts like a duck, and smells like a duck, it very likely is one.  

Researching NPD is how I have been getting greater understanding of what I've grown up with most of my life with a father who is classic.  I still love the man yet must, for my own welfare create healthy boundaries with him.  Easier said than done but getting easier as time goes on.  

Good luck in your own research.  This is a site that for me has been a powerful place to come for acceptance, understanding, and knowledge.  

Philski

[rosencrantz]

There's a whole process to go through but, I think, el, that one day you may be able to find a similar perspective to that of your sister.

That doesn't mean that your mom doesn't 'do' the things to you that she does do - but it's about personality and just generally 'who we are' in relation to each other.

Just knowing that doesn't lighten the load, and it doesn't save you from a challenging process of discovery, but it may help to know that it's just possible to find a better 'space' in relation to her (even if it means staying away).

It also doesn't mean that your siblings aren't denying the pain of some of the stuff your mother has done in the past but if they've found a way of handling it and it doesn't cause pain for them (edited - I had written 'her' in error) in the present, then I guess that's all that matters for them.

Oh, and yes - setting brothers and sisters off against each other is very 'N'!!  And manipulating you until you 'bite' is another.  The only answer is not to get hooked in (easier said than done and requires lots of practice!!!)

There's a good chance that she's treating you like someone from her own past, sees that person in you - any idea who that might be???
R

[el]

Philski,  thanks for the warm welcome!  It's so nice to have found this board.   The more I read about it, there is no doubt that both my MIL and BIL are N's.  Full blown, textbook cases.  And my own mother looks more and more that way.  I've been trying to figure her out for over 30 years.  

rosencrantz, Thank you for your post as well!  Very interesting perspective.  

"Oh, and yes - setting brothers and sisters off against each other is very 'N'!! And manipulating you until you 'bite' is another. "  I did not know these were N traits.  I'm still confused about something, though.  Some of my siblings weren't abused at all.  I and my oldest sister got the brunt of it.  Also she is extremely personable to people outside of the family.  Can N's totally put on a different face for different people to the point that noone would believe what she did to me if I told them.  They would seriously think I were making it up.  For the entire time I lived in my parents house she tried to "snuff me out".  That's how it felt.  That whenever I had the slightest amount of self esteem start to bud she would attack me until I was a nothing again.  But she wasn't like this to the other kids.  Is it still N ?

"There's a good chance that she's treating you like someone from her own past, sees that person in you - any idea who that might be??? "  Wow, it's funny you should say this because my therapist said the exact same thing!  I know that I look like her probably more than anyone else in the family does but that my personality is very different.  I've been trying to figure out who it could be that I remind her of.  I've always been shy and she's as outgoing as it gets.  In fact, it was my shyness and perceived "weakness" that she pounced on.  Constantly saying how un-shy the other kids were and how it was bad to be shy.  Yet, whenever I asserted myself, I was shot down (through beatings, verbal abuse, etc.) Is this a N trait as well?  To squash a child's personality/spirit?    -E

[Survivor]

Hi El,

Welcome to the board.  You are NOT crazy, but I can relate to how you feel since I was also the target one for my Nmother.  I was told this by a  counselor:

A WITNESS TO ABUSE IS A VICTIM OF ABUSE

It was always hard for me to fathom that my sister (who was treated much kinder than I was) could possibly be a "victim" from watching me get the brunt of everything.  However, years later, I can see that she also suffered from just being a bystander to the abuse.

Hope this helps!  

Survivor

[Wildflower]

Hi el,

Welcome!!!

Can someone still be N but treat some people fine and pinpoint who they will attack, gaining the support from those that are not attacked i.e. my mother will tell a non abused sibling that "el is so mean to me" after she instigates to no end and I finally say one thing to stand up for myself.

Part of what make an N an N is that they simply can’t help being an N.  In other words, I don’t think it’s possible for them to abuse one person and not another.  I do think it’s possible that they get different needs satisfied from different people/personalities, though.  My mother had two brothers, and they were all treated radically differently on the surface, but they all suffered deeply.  I’m not that close to the oldest brother, so I can’t speak for him, but I know that the younger brother was idolized – practically a substitute husband – by my grandmother, whereas my mother was mercilessly beaten down.

I’m just suggesting that you may not be able to see how they were hurt, and it may be that they can’t either, if it was subtle enough.  Or even if there weren't punches (physical or emotional) involved.  Hope that helps.

Good luck in your reading.  This can be pretty scary stuff sometimes, but there are plenty of good people here to help sort out the ickier issues.

Wildflower

[rosencrantz]

Can N's totally put on a different face for different people to the point that noone would believe what she did to me if I told them

Yes!!!

It was learning that the feeling/thought 'nobody would believe me' is central to this issue that set me on the trail!!

Lots more 'yes' answers for you!!

I suggest taking time to read past posts - it will be worth the investment of time.  You'll find your experience reflected here time and again.
R

[write]

the narcissist is looking for particular attention to boost the false self.

They are not interested in real intimacy but that is where they suck people in- making them believe that a real connection is taking place. Except they are pretending and don't care about you, only about the way they are reflected by you.

They can't care- their own anguish and inner turmoil and the search for people & situations to bolster the projected self which is all they can bear of themselves takes up all their energy.

It's not personal, they will treat anyone who will feed their narcissism the same.

But it feels doubly hurtful to realise the n has yet again swung things round to them and especially that special moments between you meant nothing to them.

A narcissist won't even squirm when you confront them and try to tell them how they made you feel. They will simply analyse very critically what you are saying and feeling, or they will try to turn things back to them, or they will walk away ( and most likely have forgotten it next time you meet )

[write]

It's not personal, they will treat anyone who will feed their narcissism the same.

to expand on that: as you and others point out there is some reason why you particularly are a target to give narcissistic attention.
Are you the brightest, the prettiest, the most like a significant person to them?
A narcissist wants the best narcissistic attention, from the source closest to their ideal.

[el]

Survivor,  thanks for the welcome!  You are absolutely right.  A witness to abuse is also a victim.  My entire family is "messed up" by my N mother even though we were all treated much differently.  

Wildflower, thanks for the reply.  Something you said really cautht my attention:  
"Part of what make an N an N is that they simply can’t help being an N. In other words, I don’t think it’s possible for them to abuse one person and not another."    

I've literally spent hours reading these threads (mostly while my kids were sleeping).  But for whatever reason, the reasoning of a N still is just beyond my grasp.  Are you saying that a N is compelled to hurt people?  Or is it just to extract supply?  Are all N's sadistic?  I know that this was not what you were saying exactly (I'm not trying to put words in your mouth) but your response really made me think about this.

rosencrantz,  
"It was learning that the feeling/thought 'nobody would believe me' is central to this issue that set me on the trail!! "  

I am SO glad that you posted this because I have felt this same way all of my life!

"I suggest taking time to read past posts - it will be worth the investment of time. You'll find your experience reflected here time and again. "

I took your advice and have spent hours reading.  Very enlightening!

Guest,

"as you and others point out there is some reason why you particularly are a target to give narcissistic attention."
I think that I give them the most undivided attention or something.  I'm not too sure.  Definately lots to ponder though.  Thank you! -E

[Wildflower]

Hi el,

Glad you're finding the posts helpful!!  

But for whatever reason, the reasoning of a N still is just beyond my grasp.

Don’t feel bad if it takes you a while to really feel like you’re starting to get your head around the thinking of an N because there's some difficult stuff to grapple with here.  So take your time and go easy on yourself (leave the N’s to do the beating up).  Many people here seem to have an instinctive sense that something is/was wrong, but aren’t able to really put a finger on the source of the problem because:

- N behavior is often impossible to believe

- N’s are very good at ‘tricking’ people (they have to be in order to keep people in their supply spheres)

- it’s painful to realize that you are nothing to an N, especially one you have tried to love or from whom you needed love

- these ideas are offensive to people who are able to care for others

- victim’s of N’s often feel a deep sense of shame for having failed the N, for having been taken advantage of by the N…I know there are others, but the power of shame is a new topic for me

These are just a few reasons I’m aware of, and maybe others have more to offer.  This isn't meant to be discouraging, by the way - just offering short cuts if I can.

On the subject of taking time, though, you may want to give your H some time, too, because he may be facing some of the same difficulties coming to terms with and finding better ways of dealing with his N family (sorry if someone else has already said that on the My Story thread).  Maybe you guys could even work on them together.

Are you saying that a N is compelled to hurt people? Or is it just to extract supply? Are all N's sadistic?

I think Jacmac made a lot of valuable points in answer to this question, to which I just want to add this: They simply can’t see outside themselves.  Period.  They can’t ‘know’ anyone else except in relation to their own needs.  

To give a funny and straight-forward example, my grandmother used to tell me what my favorite foods were, and oddly enough, they were always what she happened to be serving that night.  I distinctly remember the night I learned that peas were my favorite food.   When I politely suggested that they weren’t, thinking maybe she’d gotten me confused with someone else (another big N thing), she helped me realize that I just didn’t remember that peas were my favorite.    

Substitute peas with emotions and you’ve got a pretty scary dynamic – especially when it comes to children who are dependent on N’s.

Hope this helps.

Stay strong   ,
Wildflower

[el123]

Jacmac,

Wow.  So much to think about. I really appreciate your post.  It explained what had been confusing to me about N's yesterday.  

" I think if an N really, really feels a high degree of self-loathing, s/he will not believe in anyway that a person can truly love him (her) so they will believe that you are lying (that you are acting, as they are). They will view all your motivations as suspect, which actually in their mind, justifies some of their behavior towards you."

It's sad.  Maybe this is one of the reason we put up with them in love situations.  We instinctively feel that they are hurting.  That's how I felt about my mother, at least.   I knew that she comes from a place of  deep pain and always as a child thought that I could love the pain away.  But it's been over thirty years and I'm still dealing with her abuse!  I've finally gotten to the point of accepting that she will not change.

"The more they hate their inner selves, the more sadistic they will be in an attempt to keep anyone from finding out, which is really ironic, because it is their capacity to hurt others without remorse which really gives them away"

Reading this gave me the creeps.  It's so scary to know that this is how they are.

"I remember telling an N I was involved, with who was complaining that I actually was hurting him by bringing up how he hurt me: "
"But that is how a human being is supposed to feel. Most human beings who hurt others feel bad when they do."

My MIL does this all the time!  She can do whatever she wants to people but God forbid if someone brings it up!  Thanks so much for your reply.
 
Wildflower, Thanks for your reply.  It's very comforting to know that there are others in the same situation as I am, that I'm not alone.  Not that I would want it for anyone, of course but it's hard when noone else seemed to get it.  I couldn't even get it.  That's why I am so glad that I found this site.  I can't stop reading the posts.  

"victim’s of N’s often feel a deep sense of shame for having failed the N, for having been taken advantage of by the N"

This is me.  I've always felt that there was something wrong with me.  That I wasn't good enough (although I never got into any trouble), smart enough (even though I was practically a straight A student), pretty enough (people tell me I'm attractive), etc.  It's so liberating to finally feel like maybe it was never about me to begin with.  Then that quickly changes to sadness "hey, it never was about me…"  I'm going through some deep emotions now.  

"On the subject of taking time, though, you may want to give your H some time, too, because he may be facing some of the same difficulties coming to terms with and finding better ways of dealing with his N family"  

 Yes, that's what I'm doing now.  I have much more compassion for his past behaviours now.  I know how insidious the grasp of a N can be.  And both his brother and mother are full blown classic N's.  He's working on boundary issues.  He's really trying so I have to hand it to him.  Two days ago he told his N mother that he needed a break from talking to her for a while as he was attempting to piece back his marriage.  She went through the same "I sacrificed my life for you" deal and then hung up on him.  He was very civil to her on the phone (I was standing next to him).  She had no reason to hang up.  Then yesterday, she called him (this is the DAY after he told her not to call, as he needed a break from her) at work.  He didn't pick up the phone when he saw that it was her number.  She left a message trying to make him feel bad about what he said the other day.  The fact that he did not call her back was a big step for him.  He's sticking to his boundaries with her!

" I distinctly remember the night I learned that peas were my favorite food.  When I politely suggested that they weren’t, thinking maybe she’d gotten me confused with someone else (another big N thing), she helped me realize that I just didn’t remember that peas were my favorite. "

Sounds like you are describing my mother!  Take care, -E.

[rosencrantz]

Then yesterday, she called him (this is the DAY after he told her not to call, as he needed a break from her) at work

Boy, have I been there!!!  She'll fight and spite him for it, so he needs to be prepared.  Mine had herself committed to hospital after a suicide threat in exactly those circumstances.  But she showed her true colours to the world in the process.  And it was the start of my freedom!!!  
R

[seeker]

Hi El,

I must applaud you and your H on the progress you are making.    Go, nonNs, go!  

The phone calls reminded me of my situation with N and husband.  I had approached N's H before, wanting to work it out, talk about why the relationship between our families was evaporating at the hands of his N wife.  He couldn't hear it.  Not until other members of our family all took giant steps backward, leaving him alone to deal with N by himself.  

Then he came to talk.  Boy, what a disappointment.  He still didn't care about how I might be feeling.  How all this was affecting everyone.  His agenda was to get people back on their "side".  Then, it was strange.  It was as though he started taking playing cards out of his pocket to see which line would "work" on me.  Almost like a guy going down the barstools with pickup lines to see which one would make him "lucky".    

He started with Poor me.  And I would respond "yes, poor you.  hope things get better [without me]".  Okay, that didn't work.  Next line: Poor her.  "Yes, poor her.  I don't understand.  She needs to 'win'. OK, she wins."  Hmm.  Big bad parents. "That is between you and them.  Good luck."  OK, big sigh, the final card. Our poor children. "I like your kids.  They are not the issue.  N's behavior is. I wish them the best [without me]."

So I guess my point is, the more your husband can see that his mother and brother are simply playing games to rope him in to do their bidding, he can think objectively about it and not feel so bad.  It really is cause and effect.  Say no, expect static.  Remember to reward his efforts (nice dinner, perhaps?).  It isn't easy.  

Way to go, and good luck keeping the drawbridge up!   Seeker

[el123]

Rosencrantz,  I cannot believe that your MIL committed herself to a hospital after a suicide threat!  Actually, on second thought, I can believe it!  My MIL has been threatening suicide for as long as my H can remember (and never attempted even once).  She uses it as a power tool.  It's really twisted.  It seems like we have similar MIL's.  Thanks for the reply.

Seeker,  I'm inspired by your ability to set and keep boundaries with your N's husband.  I am starting out on the road to keep boundaries with my MIL, brother and mother (all N's!!!).  It's hard for me but I'm doing it.

So I guess my point is, the more your husband can see that his mother and brother are simply playing games to rope him in to do their bidding, he can think objectively about it and not feel so bad. It really is cause and effect. Say no, expect static. Remember to reward his efforts (nice dinner, perhaps?). It isn't easy."  

Yes, I'm glad you said that instead of what a $%#@ my H is (and how I was thinking before I found this board and info on N's).  I've been very proud of him for what he's doing.   A nice dinner is a good idea actually (He loves when I cook just for him and not "family friendly" stuff).  Thanks for the reply!   -El