What my ex N taught me about custody court

[mudpuppy]

Sheeva,

I'm sorry for what has happened to you and I also believe if you do not give up you will prevail. Perseverance pays off; it's a test of our character. And you are correct that if you go into court unarmed against an N you will regret it. Have you contacted the Legal Services Corporation? I believe it is a Federal program and might not be hindered by the diference in jurisdictions. I don't know for sure, having never used it, but you might look into it.

CB,

He is using the court system, and my reluctance to fight with him, as a way to continue to exert control over me.  Set up a court date and then cancel.  Make a settlement proposal and then refuse to sign.

Gee why does that sound familiar? They see reasonableness and compromise on the part of their "enemies" as weakness. They cannot be induced into being reasonable in return, they must be bludgeoned into it. I subscribe to a magazine which claims to be represented by the law firm Solitary, Poor, Nasty, Brutish and Short. I hope you find the equivalent in your area and they impart a little bludgeoning on your behalf.

mum,

Good to hear from you again.

Money is like anything else....it's just energy and pretty much a collective illusion.I don't really see the "money" in and out of my hands....it's just numbers.

I bought some groceries the other day and at the checkout line they would take neither the handful of energy I offered nor the post-it with all the numbers I scribbled on it. Could you tell me where you shop?
If your lawyer takes energy credits as well it's no wonder you don't mind how much it cost to get the a**hole out of your life.

mud

[mum]

Mud, Mud, Mud, ever so literal Mud. Very funny. Hope "reality" is going well for you.
My attorney's work was paid with lots of "energy", and I was happy to do it! She navigated the courts for me, and she was not perfect. And she was the second attorney I tried, CB. My first attorneys did not quite "get" how to deal with the nastiness my ex and his attorney dished out. Wishing you all the best.

 It can be "won" but mostly by changing how you "play". That all starts in your head.
That's one of the many benefits of focusing on yourself....you cannot count on anything but crazy from N's, but you can keep strong and focused on YOUR goal and keep that feeling that it's right around the corner. I was embroiled in my court battle for so long, that when I finally prevailed I was shocked. They do give up eventually. And the courts do prefer parents who are not crazy/angry. So I would advise anyone in this situation to find ways to let go of the negative energy and anger these N's stir up in us. (however justified it is).
Much love to all.

Mum

[Brigid]

Sheeva,
I am concerned about your son's inability to even talk to you on a regular basis.  Is there anyone with whom he spends time away from your ex, i.e., day care provider, school, neighbor friend, who you could recruit to be your ally, and provide a safe place for your son to talk to you?  I think it is so important that you get strength from each other during this time away from one another.  You need to hear that he is doing OK and he needs to hear that you still love him and will be working your way back into his life.

I was fortunate in my own divorce situation that my xnh was not nasty and manipulating about the kids and they were older (15 and 18) at the time anyway. I needed a good attorney to protect me financially as he had lied about and hidden assets while carrying on an affair.  But if it hadn't been for my therapist, who diagnosed my x as n, and his help and guidance during a devastating time of my life, I'm sure my ex would have been able to take great advantage of me as well.

I'm so sorry for your situation and my heart aches for your little boy and for you who cannot be with him.  My children are my life and if they were taken away from me, my heart would be shattered into a million pieces.

I agree with what the others have said about finding help from legal aid and from an abused women's shelter.  I have been associated with one in my hometown and they can be very helpful in many ways to women with absolutely no resources.  I would also recommend finding a divorce support group.  These are often offered by churches, local community groups, hospitals, etc.  They can be a big help in working through the anger, giving you a shoulder to lean on, finding others in a similar situation, and also for providing additional resources that can help with the legal and psychological issues.  You said you are in school studying to be an RN.  Your college probably has some counseling services which you could take advantage of.  I strongly urge you to find any way possible to get some help to process all your pain right now.  It is not anything someone should have to do alone.

Hugs,

Brigid

[Sheeeva]

There is something to be said for magical thinking. It can sometimes get you through the tough times, but there is no substitute to for reality. I have to face things as they are and learn to deal with them. There is no way for me to get an attorney, unless one reads about this on the internet and contacts me with a miracle of an offer. Some people have the luxury of living in bubble and others do not. Some of you claim to have attorneys, and that is so wonderful for you, you have found a way to pay for them, too, that is even greater... I am not in that kind of a situation. I left with nothing but my kids and the clothes on our backs, I did not even have my own car when I left. I felt a sense of freedom that I had not had in years, but that was short lived as fighting for my child set in. He gets so much attention from his friends and family over the whole situation, that he may never let him go. Our child is a great source of attention for him and his ego. He now gets to play all kinds of new and exciting roles in his ever lasting search for self validation. I am bound under to court order to let my child go to him, the small town court played a huge role in the shredding ripping and destruction of my family. I used to have fantasies of walking into the court house and blowing my brains all over the judge because of what they were allowing my ex to do to the kids and me. I used to be happy. I used to have joy. That is all gone now as year three of court battle is underway. I have no money, nothing. The only thing I have is this RN program. And the bleak outlook of working for an attorney when i am done, as in every penny I earn will go to an attorney for many many years, I have no doubt that my ex will fulfill his promise of 18 years of court battle, and I need money to protect my children from him, as in this particular family court the parent with the most money wins. I tried calling my son all week last week during the court ordered times, but as usual my ex had the phone off the hook, so this week I did not even try. It is just the Ns way of hurting me even more. He has found a powerful tool. All the positive thinking in the world has not and will not make a difference. I totally thought that I would be able to get an attorney somehow, but I could not. ATTORNEYS ARE NOT OBLIGATED TO TAKE CIVIL CASES FOR FREE. THERE IS NO LAW THAT SAYS THEY HAVE TO. I spent TWO years working on this for at least 40 hours per week, trying to figure out how to get an attorney and how to file papers in a court case that I was dragged into. STOP TELLING ME THAT I CAN GET ONE WITHOUT MONEY. I am not dealing with a normal person either. It took him two years to get custody, and I am sure that if I had it reversed, he would not stop until he found another judge who would give him the same outcome. As long as I fight him, it gives him a reason to live, it gives his ego fuel. I have to let him think he has won for now, while I slowly work on my ability to change things. He just got custody last month, that is why it is so hard for me emotionally right now. I know that if I had an attorney for an appeal I would win,(I had a restraining order, 14 police reports, and a mediators report that said I should have full legal and physical custody, and my son had always lived with me, and he has a brother who lives with me) I lost for the SOLE reason of no attorney.

[mum]

I am sorry for your pain, Sheeva. And I am sorry if my responses seemed invalidating, it was not my intention.
Mum

[Margo]

There is no way for me to get an attorney, unless one reads about this on the internet and contacts me with a miracle of an offer. Some people have the luxury of living in bubble and others do not. Some of you claim to have attorneys, and that is so wonderful for you, you have found a way to pay for them, too, that is even greater... I am not in that kind of a situation. I left with nothing but my kids and the clothes on our backs, I did not even have my own car when I left. I felt a sense of freedom that I had not had in years, but that was short lived as fighting for my child set in. He gets so much attention from his friends and family over the whole situation, that he may never let him go. Our child is a great source of attention for him and his ego. He now gets to play all kinds of new and exciting roles in his ever lasting search for self validation. I am bound under to court order to let my child go to him, the small town court played a huge role in the shredding ripping and destruction of my family. I used to have fantasies of walking into the court house and blowing my brains all over the judge because of what they were allowing my ex to do to the kids and me. I used to be happy. I used to have joy. That is all gone now as year three of court battle is underway. I have no money, nothing. The only thing I have is this RN program. And the bleak outlook of working for an attorney when i am done, as in every penny I earn will go to an attorney for many many years, I have no doubt that my ex will fulfill his promise of 18 years of court battle, and I need money to protect my children from him, as in this particular family court the parent with the most money wins. I tried calling my son all week last week during the court ordered times, but as usual my ex had the phone off the hook, so this week I did not even try. It is just the Ns way of hurting me even more. He has found a powerful tool. All the positive thinking in the world has not and will not make a difference. I totally thought that I would be able to get an attorney somehow, but I could not. ATTORNEYS ARE NOT OBLIGATED TO TAKE CIVIL CASES FOR FREE. THERE IS NO LAW THAT SAYS THEY HAVE TO. I spent TWO years working on this for at least 40 hours per week, trying to figure out how to get an attorney and how to file papers in a court case that I was dragged into. STOP TELLING ME THAT I CAN GET ONE WITHOUT MONEY. I am not dealing with a normal person either. It took him two years to get custody, and I am sure that if I had it reversed, he would not stop until he found another judge who would give him the same outcome. As long as I fight him, it gives him a reason to live, it gives his ego fuel. I have to let him think he has won for now, while I slowly work on my ability to change things. He just got custody last month, that is why it is so hard for me emotionally right now. I know that if I had an attorney for an appeal I would win,(I had a restraining order, 14 police reports, and a mediators report that said I should have full legal and physical custody, and my son had always lived with me, and he has a brother who lives with me) I lost for the SOLE reason of no attorney.

If your ex has money.... then part of that money was YOUR money.  All the money he earned during the marriage.... half of that was yours. I don't understand why he has so much and you got nothing.  Beleieve me.... I'm not accusing you of exaggerating.... I'm simply trying to discern what went wrong so that others don't let that happen to them, if they can help it.  (read that as me) 

What happened that you left with a small child, as primary caretaker, and got no temporary support or money for an attorney?  If you weren't working.... the court usually orders money for an attorney from the husband?  If I'm wrong..... please correct me.  Especially when dealing with wealthy people..... there seemed to be no reason why your husband wouldn't have had to pay for your counsel? 

Also.... how did he get custody of your child?  It's almost unheard of here for a parent who never cared for their child to get full custody like that.  Here in Atlanta GA, anyway.  We don't even have joint custody here unless both parents agree to it. 

Also..... what happened to your first child's father?  Is he around, helping... hurting you?  How are you living on your own and did you not get any support?

[Sheeeva]

i never married him. he was not my husband so I did not get half of his money. Sorry this is so unbelievable for some of you to fathom, but it is true, I never ever thought in a million years that they courts operated the way they did. If you have any experience with an abuser then you might be able to imagine some of it anyway. He is the stealthy kind. The sneaky one who hits only when there are no people around that he knows, or behind closed doors. He is a N, so he always modified my thoughts after evey fight, saying "why are you so sad" " I didn't do anything to you , you need to take some medication for your depression" The funny think was, I never did take any "medication" for my "depression" and I would agree with him to get him to leave me alone. I am so terrified of him that I shake when I know that I am going to have to see him. I had to get up in court and endure a four day trial with his attorney and him attacking me every word they said. He was so elated it showed in his face every time he looked at me. I was reduced to less than human by all the accusations him and his sick mother and sister flung at me. Funny thing was I only saw his mother twice in the four years of our sick relationship, and his sister once, but both of these women got up and testified that I was a crazy bitch who would kill her own children. I was shocked. I love my kids. I am a honor student and a RN student. I love people, and I am very sensitive and kind. I have always tried to raise my children the best I know how. I kept his abuse secrets way to long, and when I finally broke free of his mind control, it was to late. Nobody would believe me, well one judge believed me, and gave me a restraining order that stopped him from trying to physically intimidate me too much anymore, or at least made him more sneaky about it. I am very ignorant of the laws, and do not know how to navigate a complex legal system against a lying and sneaky attorney who will do any dirty lawyer trick in the book to help his client have the advantage, a lawyer with a track record of 100% wins in family law. You think every client he has had is innocent? This attorney brags to take on cases where the person has been accused of child molestation and defends those people too, and he wins EVERY time. That is how the unbelievable comes true. SO IF YOU WANT TO TELL ME TO GET AN ATTORNEY OR DON'T BELIEVE ME STOP POSTING IN THIS THREAD, I DON'T NEED YOUR CLOSED MINDED OPINIONS

What I do need is good advice from people who know about narcissism, and can give me good advice on what to do to get him to take his radar off me, and get tactics to use on him(not the courts) to eventually get my child into a safer life. People who know that every interaction with a N is dangerous and the cold calculating SOB is making plans with every word uttered. People who know that he does not want custody to give child better life, but to hurt me and continue to get reaction out of me. People who know that the N live in their own little worlds of their choosing, and have good advice to give on the subject of dealing with them. My whole story up to now is a world of the N's choosing. I would have never choose to live in this manner. I would have done everything to avoid court, but when your dealing with a N, there is no input that does not jive with their plans. This was his plan. This is my life. I want my life back.

[Gaining Strength]

Sheeva - I believe you word for word.  I think what you are up against is so unbearable that even many of us who have experienced great hardship in dealing with Ns can only begin to get.  The hardships of dealing with systems that cannot or will not help the innocent is too much for many of us to bear. 

I have been through some absolute insane shenanigans in the legal system in trying to deal with my husband's will.  They are just as insane as what you describe but the object is not over my child.  I went to several different attorneys and each time was told that the attorney who was handling the case could not do what he was doing - but he did and then no one else would help me  - except one who charged me $5000 for telling me that I had to give half of my husband's property to his adult son even though the will suggested otherwise.  She went on to tell me that my husband's son was shipping out to Iraq and when I told her that he hadnot even finished his ROTC requirements and had a long history of exaggerating and lieing she clearly did not believe me.  That is such an insignificant piece of it because I cannot discuss the parts that are painful because no one will believe me so I get what you are trying to say and I get what you are up against.

I hear that you need someone here to listen and to believe - not to offer more suggestions of things already tried or that won't make inroads into the nightmarish experience you have been living.  It is not really closed mindedness - it is the inability to imagine that there is no real answer to the insanity you have lived with.  But I have seen much in life that echos such insanity - the broad class of examples that I think of often are those folks who are in prison for crimes they did not commit - some of them on death row.  Now that is as insane as anything else.

My heart is with you.  On another thread you really had started figuring out some very good things.  Keep your mind and your heart on your work towards your degree.  Keep documenting your attempts to call - date, time and what happens on the phone.  Write letters to your son or a journal so that when you do get to see him later you  can show him how much love you have had for him..

Later tonight I have a story that is as Kafkaesque a situation as you are describing concerning my probate experience - but again it does not involve anything as precious as your son.  My heart is with you.  Your situation is unbearable.  But you do so clearly understand that the more you fight the more the child's father enjoys tormenting you.  My sister in law is being much like that right now with my brother and their 15 year old son.  She wanted the divorce and now that my brother has gotten engaged to a kind loving person my sister in law will do anything to make life difficult for her son who loves being with his father and step-mother to be. 

I am thinking of you - Gaining Strength

[mum]

Sheeva,
Look, I don't know you but I would like to help. You also don't know me, as I was on the board a long time ago, when I was battling my ex over my children. But I am honestly not trying to belittle your experience or baby you either. I think you are an honest, competent, intellegent woman who is currently in N-hell. I screw up sometimes, and I apologize for adding any salt to an unbearable wound.
I re-read something I wrote to you and I understand, now, why you might have been offended. It's so clear now, and I really am sorry. I can be pretty clumsy sometimes.
When I said the courts give preference to "parents who are not crazy/angry", I did not mean you were crazy. God, no.
I was speaking from my own experience. My ex made me feel crazy and I was extremely angry and it all worked against me, that's all I was saying. A horrid catch 22, to be sure.  A mediator told me that my anger was sabotaging me, legally. She "got" who he was, understood he was a raging, abusive, horrible N, but she knew custody court, and she was right (in my case). I blistered from that for a long time. But my anger and pain poisoned everything in my life during that time and in retrospect, she was dead on about what happened. That may or may not be what's going on for you. I know that.

And that is what I meant by changing the way you play the game.That IS how I dealt with fighting an N is custody court. N's feed off of our (justifiable) anger at thier hands. They know how to hurt us and take great pleasure in doing so. In my case, the more I hurt, the more power he felt and the more out of control I looked. They way N's work is truly evil. Family courts are loaded with N's...on and off the bench, and it seems like a crap shoot to me, how judges rule.

And I know it sounds like I am talking from some other world, but I have been at the depths of the ocean, held down by an abusive N, while he dangled my children to taunt me. I am so sorry that  I lost touch with that when I wrote.

My "real"  experience with dealing with an N, is just what I wrote you. It is not everyone's way, but it was how I turned it around....in the real, physical world. Disconnecting from that "reality" (of hell) that was his making and making my own reality, turned out to work for me. Turns out the unrealistic stuff were the lies he tricked me into believing about my life.

I have nothing but admiration and compassion for you and your difficulties right now. I want you to get your life back, too. It's only because I got mine back that I believe others can, too.

It's ok with me if you reject my akward way of trying to say I care. I still hope you find your way out.

I was able to find some help through  a website, and you might too. It's
www.thelizlibrary.org
A long time ago, when I felt I had nothing to lose, I contacted the moderator of the website (a lawyer). She put me in contact with someone in my city who she thought could help. It turns out I got some help from another source at the very same time for my appeal, but I was amazed at how helpful they were. It's just an idea, but maybe you could look into it?

Best of luck to you. With much love,
Mum

[Margo]

i never married him. he was not my husband so I did not get half of his money. Sorry this is so unbelievable for some of you to fathom, but it is true, I never ever thought in a million years that they courts operated the way they did. If you have any experience with an abuser then you might be able to imagine some of it anyway. He is the stealthy kind. The sneaky one who hits only when there are no people around that he knows, or behind closed doors. He is a N, so he always modified my thoughts after evey fight, saying "why are you so sad" " I didn't do anything to you , you need to take some medication for your depression" The funny think was, I never did take any "medication" for my "depression" and I would agree with him to get him to leave me alone. I am so terrified of him that I shake when I know that I am going to have to see him. I had to get up in court and endure a four day trial with his attorney and him attacking me every word they said. He was so elated it showed in his face every time he looked at me. I was reduced to less than human by all the accusations him and his sick mother and sister flung at me. Funny thing was I only saw his mother twice in the four years of our sick relationship, and his sister once, but both of these women got up and testified that I was a crazy bitch who would kill her own children. I was shocked. I love my kids. I am a honor student and a RN student. I love people, and I am very sensitive and kind. I have always tried to raise my children the best I know how. I kept his abuse secrets way to long, and when I finally broke free of his mind control, it was to late. Nobody would believe me, well one judge believed me, and gave me a restraining order that stopped him from trying to physically intimidate me too much anymore, or at least made him more sneaky about it. I am very ignorant of the laws, and do not know how to navigate a complex legal system against a lying and sneaky attorney who will do any dirty lawyer trick in the book to help his client have the advantage, a lawyer with a track record of 100% wins in family law. You think every client he has had is innocent? This attorney brags to take on cases where the person has been accused of child molestation and defends those people too, and he wins EVERY time. That is how the unbelievable comes true. SO IF YOU WANT TO TELL ME TO GET AN ATTORNEY OR DON'T BELIEVE ME STOP POSTING IN THIS THREAD, I DON'T NEED YOUR CLOSED MINDED OPINIONS

What I do need is good advice from people who know about narcissism, and can give me good advice on what to do to get him to take his radar off me, and get tactics to use on him(not the courts) to eventually get my child into a safer life. People who know that every interaction with a N is dangerous and the cold calculating SOB is making plans with every word uttered. People who know that he does not want custody to give child better life, but to hurt me and continue to get reaction out of me. People who know that the N live in their own little worlds of their choosing, and have good advice to give on the subject of dealing with them. My whole story up to now is a world of the N's choosing. I would have never choose to live in this manner. I would have done everything to avoid court, but when your dealing with a N, there is no input that does not jive with their plans. This was his plan. This is my life. I want my life back.

I don't doubt you've been tortured unfairly by a lying manipulative N.  I did not, however, realize you didn't have this custody dispute in divorce court.  It may have been mentioned but..... I missed it.  Sometimes people ask for clarity on a message board so they can learn too.  It's part of the process and since I'm in divorce court at this time, with children, you can understand my need for clarity, yes?

Please try to stay focused on the things that will help you.  Documenting your N's behavior with regard to visitation rights he's trampling.  Document document document.  The system won't stand behind him if he's waving his fanny at it too.  Get your education and remain in contact with your child.  Research the laws youself on the computer.  It's your job to keep from becoming overwhelmed..... and that comes with practice and information.   I found this board through another site you may find helpful as follows:  http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_is_the_difference_between_narcissistic_personality_disorder_and_borderline_personality_disorder

I hope you find your power.  I hope you're able to focus your energy on getting some justice and sanity for you and your child.  Get some therapy.  Take information where you can find it and start journaling.  No one here wishes anything but healing and restoration.  It isn't over..... till it's over.  Your child is young and he needs you calm, steady and consistently.  Don't miss any more visitations.  Keep looking for ways to bolster your position.  He's going to make mistakes and you should position yourself to take advantage of them.  Good luck, Margo

[to the top]

Just bringing this to the top for the person who was curious about what it could be like going to court with an N, Good luck!