who is the real N?

[sjkravill]

Suddenly, I have the horrible feeling that the real N here is me, not my husband.
I read that keeping feelings and thoughts from a spouse is a form of abuse. I have been keeping my feelings for months from my husband because I didn't feel emotionally safe in sharing them with him.
Keeping my feelings upsets him. His cycles of inappropriate behavior intensify...

Before, when I told him everything, I always felt disrespected and he never understood that there was a problem in our relationship, as much as I begged him to understand... because he had all of the power.
But now, that I don't give up my power (my feelings) he says that I am controling him. I am causing his moodswings. Now, he senses a problem in our relationship.

He begged me to talk, and I finally did. Very gently, I told him how I had been feeling. At first he seemed sweet, receptive, and apologetic. Then, after a while he told me he was not about to take all the responsibility for the problems in our marriage. I needed to understand his feelings. He told me that I am not giving him the same respect that I ask of him. He says I need to initiate more in every part of the relationship, that I am putting all of the responsibility on him. He says that he has been changing and improving just for me, because he would never want to hurt me. I don't know what I think about that.

I started to think that maybe, now, I am the N. Am I being abusive by not telling him how I feel? by not taking equal responsibility for fixing the relationship? I verbally acknowledge his improvements as I notice them, and I actively show concern and affection for him. But that is not sufficient, I am being told. He says I am expecting perfection, I am only remembering the bad times, etc. Maybe I am expecting too much... The converstaion became so taxing and confusing, I felt exhausted and began to cry. I was sorry for having said anything at all.

I am afraid that if I start initiating again, the pattern will reverse again. I am afraid if I share my feelings again, they will be unimportant and wrong again. If I pursue, he will withdraw. I hope that my trust will come back intuitively as he does change, but who knows? In the mean time, am I escalating his behavior by claiming the power to with-hold my feelings?
What a delicate balance of power.

It is my position that when one person has been abused, that person no longer shares equal responsibility in "fixing" the relationship. The abuser must take responsibility and make changes. My position is, "yes, I allowed this abuse to take place, but I am not going to anymore." I don't want to pour myself empty into a container with holes in it. However, I could be misreading him. He could have changed, and I haven't noticed it or trusted it yet.

I have ordered some books on emotional abuse... while I am waiting, can anyone else identify with this story? Any wisdom to share?

[clj_writes]

It is my position that when one person has been abused, that person no longer shares equal responsibility in "fixing" the relationship. The abuser must take responsibility and make changes. My position is, "yes, I allowed this abuse to take place, but I am not going to anymore." I don't want to pour myself empty into a container with holes in it.

BRAVO!!!  I'm sure others will be able to give you better advice on this than I but I must say it sounds like he wants to sow self-doubt in you.  Be strong, trust yourself, and don't be tricked by this!

[write]

He could have changed, and I haven't noticed it or trusted it yet.


read that back to yourself.
How could he have changed when you still feel the same abusiveness from him, and suspicion of his motives.

What has he done to change? Read books, learned about himself, worked on his behaviour, been to therapy? Change is painstakingly difficult, he would have to make a considerable effort. Unlikely you wouldn't notice that.

You're not responisble for his mood swings, nor is it necessary in a  marriage or relationship to give yourself over to another beyond a point you feel comfortable.Where did you read that keeping your own feelings was a form of abuse? what nonsense- every healthy person keeps some parts of themselves for themselves.

And more importantly- to be healthy you need to be able to trust and value yourself irrespective of what others tell you.

Take care of yourself.

[tokyojim2001]

I heard a simple thing to remember when one worries about being the N himself:

If you are seriously considering the possibility, you are probably not an N; they would not ask that question of themselves.

[Wildflower]

The converstaion became so taxing and confusing, I felt exhausted and began to cry. I was sorry for having said anything at all.

I can tell from your writing that you’re in a very tight, claustrophobic  place, and you may be having trouble finding any space to think.  Being with an N is extremely disorienting, and as you’ve seen in other posts, the blame is always shifted back to the non-N.     I know that gets very confusing when you find yourself saying that he's the N.  But maybe it would find another point of comparison.

Is there anywhere you can go to get some fresh air?  Stay with a friend?  Even go out for dinner with a friend?  Even if you can’t in the near future, can you think about how you interact with others, friends?

If you can do any of these things, then maybe you can watch/listen to yourself and be reminded that you know how to act with people who aren’t trying to break you down.  It’s just a thought.

Hang in there.

Wildflower

[rosencrantz]

I don't think you've ever said anything to alert my 'N' antenna  

And if you're feeling confused right now, you can't possibly be an 'N'.  Ns don't 'do' confusion!!!  

When somebody else 'defines' you and it doesn't 'fit' your reality, you get confused if you try to make it fit.

Define yourself and then stick with your appraisal of who you are, what you intend and where you are going. And then repeat ad infinitum.  

Don't seek different ways of saying it on the basis that 'perhaps' the other person hasn't understood (or to avoid conflict).  Say it, know it and be it.

But in doing so, be aware that you are shaking their definition of who you are and they'll fight you and look for cracks in your armour.  Give an inch and they take a mile.

It's a tough one if you decide to stay in the relationship.  I can't stay intact around an N unless I get really tough on the outside to keep them out and keep reminding them of who I 'really' am - that is exhausting and you'll get worn down sooner or later.  

How can anyone survive constant contact with an N??!  Impossible.  Will they change? Unlikely.  The appearance of change is used to manipulate you into thinking its safe to relax your guard.  Then, Zap!  The pain and confusion cycle starts all over again.

R

[Gingerpeach]

Dear Sjkravill,

Yes, I can identify with your story.  You are not an N.  An N would never ask for help on this board, nor would an N be concerned and worried that he might be an N.  Partners of Ns often think that they are Ns because having lived with them, we start to act like them and think like them in order to survive.

You said,  

"I read that keeping feelings and thoughts from a spouse is a form of abuse."  

Yes, this can be abuse if you are keeping things from him in order to hurt him, trick him, or keep him confused. The fact is, you are doing this in order to protect yourself because when you do reveal yourself,

you said, " I didn't feel emotionally safe in sharing them with him…. when I told him everything, I always felt disrespected."

This is typical N behavior.  They will take what you say in confidence and with all sincerity and then use it against you later….somehow….even if it sounds like love and concern. You have seen this happen, and so, you have learned to protect yourself by not revealing.

I am struck by how many times you used the word "power in describing these latest interactions.  Good for you that you recognize this!!!  So much of what occurs with Ns has to do with power and control.  And believe me, it has nothing to do with you having any of it!!  His accusing you of controlling him is pure projection, which is one of N's  favorite mechanisms.  Whenever he accuses you of anything, it means that HE is doing it to YOU.  

When you said,  "The conversation became so taxing and confusing, I felt exhausted and began to cry. I was sorry for having said anything at all,"  

I wanted to wrap you up in a nice soft blanket and take you away to a safe place.  I have been through this many times. It is very, very painful and is never resolved.

This is another way that Ns operate.  They try to confuse you.  They do something that is called "word salad" which is slightly changing the order of words or slightly changing the shades of the meaning of the words in order to confuse you or make them appear more right or make you appear ignorant or stupid or wrong.  Non-Ns spend much time and energy trying to figure this out.  What EXACTLY was it that I said, he said….?  And you never will, because it is designed only to throw you off balance, not for honest communication. When you are off balance or confused or exhausted and crying, then the N has the control…..get it?

In some of your previous posts you expressed doubt that your husband is an N because he was so nice so much of the time.  I understand that very well. My NH was extremely nice much of the time.  They will go to great lengths to keep you there.  Remember, they do not want to lose you.  They want to control you.  If they can get away with being mean or careless, they will behave that way.  If you will not put up with that, then they will be nicer.  When you are about to walk out the door, they will be sweeter than sickening and I believe you mentioned that too.  And you didn't trust that either.

"What a delicate balance of power, " you said.  

Yes….it will always be like that.  Push. Pull.  That is what it is like with an N.  Always.  There is always some sort of power game afoot.  It is exhausting.  It is debilitating.  It is unhealthy.  

And…..guess what?  The rest of the world is not like that!!   There are actually people out there that do not do that.  People that really just want to share, to enjoy being with you, that do not want to control or capture you.  

It is just a matter of recognizing that you are not willing to stay in a life that depletes you, that hurts you.

" I don't want to pour myself empty into a container with holes in it, " you said.  

I used to say the same sort of thing……"he's a bottomless well…..it is never enough."  And it never was, nor will it ever be.  

You said that you were waiting for some books to arrive.  In the meantime, here is a URL for an article on "Dealing With Manipulative People."   It was a real eye-opener for me.  My NH used to use ALL of these "techniques."   As I wouldn't always fall for all of them all of the time, he used to go from one to the other, like going down a checklist until he found the one that worked.

It was actually scary reading that article because I almost wondered if he had read it and memorized it years ago. A sort of "Narcissist 'How To' Guide."  Now, when I have to deal with him, I sometimes keep that article handy so I can pinpoint exactly what he is doing that is making me feel so  uncomfortable.  Here is the website:

http://www.rickross.com/reference/brainwashing/brainwashing11.html

Sjkravill, trust yourself.  If you are feeling like something is not right…..it isn't right.  It has been a year since I left my NH.  Just now am I starting to feel like I am back in my body again.  I am feeling free of the "fog."  Trust how YOU feel.

[Anonymous]

*deep sigh*  thank you all so much for be reflecting with me, for validating my experience, for giving me your wisdom. ..

my H just took me in his arms, stroked my hair and told me how much he loves me, how wonderful I am... how when we drive to Atlanta next weekend for the Cubs game, we should get a room with a jacuzzi tub....
I felt my stomach tighten.  I was feeling uncomfortable with his perfectly loving touch.  I thought, "if he tries to unhook my braw I will jump out of my skin." Then,"he is not going to do that, he knows I don't want that, why am I so anxious?" The last thing on earth I want is a room with a jacuzzi tub so that I can feel guilty for resisting while the reformed sinner tries to rekindle the sexual relationship.  Or worse, I'll give in.  
I started to feel so guilty for feeling so repulsed, so on edge.  I felt guilty, thinking "I may never feel comfortable with my husband again, no matter what he does to win me back."  I thought this marriage is going to come undone, and it's going to be my fault.  

Then... I said I had to do some work.  I came out and read your posts (and the VERY helpful URL on manipulation).  What a mixture of sickness and relief.  Relief that I am not going INSANE or becoming an N.... for that I am SO greatful!  And sickness, because well, this kind of truth really will make one sick.  No matter what, I will be the one to blame, I am irrational, crazy, mean spirited, you name it....  He will be the one who loves  me so dearly and just wants ME to be happy (puke!)  You all know the story so well.  This is so insidious, so subtle.  Thank you for helping me so many times already, thank you! thank you! thank you! I can never express how much your stories help me.  They all resonated so deeply.

I decoded another one of his lies today...  The other night he told me that I am the only person who has "made him want to be a better man."  As I thought about that, I remembered several stories he had told me from his growing up where he'd had a "touch stone" sort of moment with his insensitivity and promised himself that he would change.  The odd thing with him is that he innoculates me with a tiny bit of truth so that I believe his lies.  I believe he is self aware and until much later when I realize his good intentions are all in his mind.  Alas, he is not in touch with his selfish intentions.  
He has questioned me about having an affair twice... Some people have suggested that he is projecting.  I dare not ask...  It can't be true.  

Sometimes I feel like I am dying inside, being crushed, but I can't point to why. I still have plenty of moments when I think "this is somehow all in my head"  I am really not being emotionally abused....  I am so awful for thinking that it's true.  Am I going completely insane?!  He has stopped playing the obviously sadistic games at my request....  maybe he has moved to less obvious games.
I wonder if he would be abusive to a stronger person...  maybe I am just not strong enough to be his wife. I will have more time to think about it in about 3 weeks when the semester is over.

[sjkravill]

ahh!  I forgot to log in... that was me (sjkravill)  incase it doesn't appear.

[Wildflower]

I wonder if he would be abusive to a stronger person... maybe I am just not strong enough to be his wife. I will have more time to think about it in about 3 weeks when the semester is over.

The short answer is no, it really doesn't matter how strong you are.  It simply doesn't matter WHO you are.

I was telling one of my closest friends about my recent 'discoveries' about my mother treating me like her N mother.  I was so, so paranoid and felt so guilty - like I might as well be wearing a red sign on my head that said "I'm the messed up one torturing my poor parents with crazy accusations and theories."  All this stuff really is so unbelievable,  insidious and sickening sometimes.   But he surprised me.   Someone who's not completely immersed in N literature was able to see how, by being strong for my mother (and in my own life), she might be confusing me with her mother - who was strong in a different way: strong and powerful - too powerful to resist being crushed.  She couldn't tell the difference, and he saw this immediately.     I didn't      

What I'm trying to say is that if you were strong, you'd be beaten down in a different way.  So don't even think about worrying that you don't have the right personality to deal with this situation.   There just isn't one.

Wildflower

[write]

I wonder if he would be abusive to a stronger person... maybe I am just not strong enough to be his wife.

I don't think strength comes into it. In fact it was probably your strong capable qualities which attracted him. A narcissist is generally looking for someone who'll take care of anything and everything they might need!

No doubt he was charming and trying hard to please before you were married.

Part of you is probably reeling at the realisation of who he really is, and the loss of that dream.

With a narcissist you're damned if you do or if you don't- he wants someone to accept him but the very fact you do devalues you in his eyes because he knows himself as worthless, so you must be flawed...he wants someone who is important and talented but your every achievement will be an insult and a wound to him so he must constantly devalue it...and on and on, it's a continual projection to support his false self and avoid at all costs confronting his real self.

If you met one ideal he'd just shift ground to something else.

I see now with my h that he has transference, and many of the acting out episodes with me he was really engaged with his ( deceased ) mother. The rage and pain was about her not me.
i used to wonder what i had done to trigger such outbursts.

It's him who has the major problems, not you.
I like this quote: you didn't break him, you can't fix him.

Start looking after yourself.

[pandora]

Hi Sjkravill,

How are you doing?  

I also went through a panic about "maybe I am the N!".  Sometimes it's easier to believe that the problem is US, rather than really see that we are being abused.  

Of course you aren't going to be emotionally open if you don't feel safe.  And if your H is really abusive, even if it is very subtle, it just adds to the abuse for him to expect this!   The question is WHY you don't feel safe - is it because of him and the way he treats you, or is it
due to other issues that have more to do with you?  

However, even if you do have issues with trust, etc. - and who doesn't - it is no excuse for his being abusive.  My H tried to tell me that my reactions to his behavior were all due to my own "unresolved family issues" - and I'm sure I have a few - but the truth is that the main thing I was reacting to was his crappy treatment.  So don't let your H gaslight you this way!

I found that reading books on verbal/emotional abuse and talking to other people, who were observers of my marriage, helped me see the truth.  It was truly devastating to realize that someone who had promised to love me was in fact beating me down.  I came pretty quickly to an intellectual understanding of what was happening, but dealing with it emotionally - well, that will take a lot longer.  

It sounds like you are right in the middle of this draining and painful
struggle.  I am so sorry that you have to go through this.  

After your semester ends, can you get away - visit a friend on your own, etc. - for a few days?  You may find that being apart from your H will give you clarity.  

Hang in there!  It can be very painful, but the truth really will set you free!

Pandora

[Gingerpeach]

Hi Sjkravill,

I am hearing all of your pain as you describe how frightened you are of thinking that you are going insane and thinking that this is all in your head.

I am sorry for your pain but, this is a perfectly normal response to living with an N.  This is the healthy, sane part of you speaking out. Ns try to convince us, by means subtle and otherwise, that they are right no matter what they do and if you disagree with that, then YOU are wrong or are sick in the head.  The fact that you are in such turmoil means that the healthy part is fighting back very hard !  It's painful, but it's OKAY !  It means that you are alive in there, that the N has not "won," that you still DO have your sanity.

Look at it this way, if you actually bought whatever it is that the N is trying to sell you, you wouldn't mind so much, it would all be okay.  You wouldn't think you are crazy because you would agree with all of it.  It would feel normal.  Since it doesn't feel normal.....you are NOTcrazy !!

When I first started investigating Narcissism, I read that and although I understood what they were saying, it took nearly two years for me to internalize it, to really believe it and then to act upon it.  

When someone that you love and trust completely has you convinced that they mean well and love you too and wouldn't hurt you for the world, it's very difficult to believe otherwise. And since they are nice and loving half the time, it's just not obvious that they are hurting you.  And, on some level, I question whether Ns really INTEND harm, even though they inflict massive quantities of it.

I think that to a great extent, well, for some Ns anyway, they just CAN'T behave any other way.  The reasons they behave the way they do are rooted so primitively,  they would have to learn to eat and breathe differently too.  This is why it is so difficult, if not impossible,  for them to change.  

And, this is also where accepting that it is impossible for them to change, is so hard for non-Ns.  For me, I had to get all those physical symptoms, nearly to the point of non-function, before I could realize that it was poisonous, truly toxic for me to remain, and if I stayed, I was just committing a slow form of suicide.  I decided that I would rather live.

So, when you  

"wonder if he would be abusive to a stronger person... maybe I am just not strong enough to be his wife,"  

that's just not true.  Think how strong you must be that your self is fighting this so hard, so constantly.   A weak person woud have accepted all of it without question.  It is precisely your strength that is causing you this anguish.  Your strong, healthy self is fighting tooth and nail to stay alive and not be run over by the N bulldozer.

Like some of the others were saying, Ns just don't bother with weak people.  The reward isn't big enough for them.  They want validation from someone who "counts," someone powerful, someone smart.  And, unfortunately for Ns, if their significant other is strong enough and smart enough, they eventually will leave them.  It's a Catch 22 of sorts, which is why there never seems to be a win-win in any of these relationships.  Someone always loses. When I decided that it wasn't going to be me, was the day I decided to leave.

I smiled when I read of your "decoding one of his lies."  My NH told me the same thing....that I made him want to be a better person.  Same exact words !!  Now I know that THAT is a BIG RED FLAG !!  Hmmmm...... if that's true, then what kind of person ARE YOU NOW .....?

So Sjkravill, I send you positive thoughts and lots of concentration to get through the end of the semester.  I know that you will do fine because you are really very strong and very smart.  Would you be questioning any of this if you were not?  And I will chime in with the others and ask if you have somewhere to go for a breather (by yourself) when school is over?  All of this N battling is very tiring, among other things that is.....

[kelly8893]

Take everyones advice!!! I know it is alot to take in but they are all right !!! Being with an N 24-7 is horribly taxing on a healthy or someone trying to be normal persons. They are really really really good at getting your defenses down and then they start the whole cycle over again. They can't help themselves and they never if ever, rarely change and if they do you would know!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  I wish I had more hope but that is just the way it is with an N.

Get out and mingle with other friends and take time for yourself, you will find that you are a great person and other people want to be with you and get to know you!! I was in a relationship with an N for 8 years and I am finding out that their world is not the same as our world. I like our world much better than theirs. Have a great weekend and get out and enjoy life!!
Kelly

[Anonymous]

Again, I write tonight with immense gratitude for your compassionate, insightful posts.  

Indeed, I understand this behavior pattern intellectually, but I have SUCH a difficult time believing it with my heart, or really understanding the implications.  I don't know what or how long that will take. I still slip into and out of denile.

Last night he was on the topic of sex and intimacy, and asking what we should do to "fix" our relationship.  It felt like a trap (because I have answered his questions SO many times) This time I was able to be completely honest in suggesting a temporary separation.  I desparately need a safe space in which to heal, gather strength and insight.  It seems that I just cannot process things clearly when I am near him so much of the time. I explained that I have a deeply emotional/contemplative spirit, and it was important for me to have time and space to process the events of my life.

He said that he would not handle a separation well.  He said this would make him physically and emotionally sick...  It was out of the question. He said If I wanted a temporary separation, I might as well just leave him for good.  Besides we are not at a point where we need to be considering separation. There is so much else we can try, he said (he said that same thing when I begged him to go to counseling with me a year ago). Then he requested that I never mention separation again. (I guess now I know that he would not use the time to be introspective!)
This was followed by professions of his love for me, and promises to do ANYTHING to make things better between us... (apparently not separate temporarily even if it is for the sake of my/our health, and apparently not call a marriage counselor which he offered to do weeks ago when he suggested it... apparently not read and discuss any of the marriage books laying around the house...) Then there were his accusations of my expectations being too high, and questions about how much I really love him, and the expectation things are not going to be perfect and that not having sex only makes them worse.  Then came the disclaimer that his accusations were not really meant to be accusations, but instead just an expression of his feelings.

All of this was done very sweetly, and very sincerely by him.  I used as much reflective listening/accountability as I could muster.  This time I noticed the lack of evidence in his promises... I noticed him pushing his adgenda, without truly respecting my needs, even though he claimed to do just that.  Thanks in part to your help.  My coping skills come and go with this.  He seems to get to me late at night, when I am not thinking clearly anyway, when I have other work to do, when he knows I am too exhausted to deal with him.  I am not sure if this is intentional.  I tell him that I am exhausted, but he keeps pursuing his adgenda, and I feel obligated to put issues of marriage first.  

So, now I have no garuntee of enough safe space to contemplate, because I am not ready to leave the relationship completely.  I am going to try to get home with my family and friends for a couple of weeks this summer.  I am taking the summer off school/work.  So, maybe I will travel around and catch up with long distance friendships.  I have also been looking on-line at the possibility of taking a couple of days at a retreat center of some sort in the mean time.  I do have a therapist, but I think she may be getting tierd of telling me I am in an abusive relationship.

Thank you all... ever so much.  I really can't tell you how much your support, and the sharing of your experiences have given me encouragement, wisdom and strength.

Peace, sjkravill

(drats! I forgot to log in again!!!)