Author Topic: Thank you re: Mother's Day and a question  (Read 1424 times)

Motherless

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Thank you re: Mother's Day and a question
« on: May 17, 2007, 02:51:14 PM »
Firstly, I'd like to thank everyone who helped me make it through Mother's Day.
I made it MY day or Freedom Day as mountainspring called it.

One of the joys in my/our life is our 200 year old home. We bought it 13 years ago knowing it was going to be a long haul. Talk about a money pit. We never, never had the time to work on it as I was always running to my Nmother's home over the weekend which was an hour away. (Yes, I allowed myself to be trapped.)

I spent last Sunday stripping horrid old wallpaper off of equally horrid horsehair plaster walls... this probably doesn't all sound glamorous or appealing to many people but it was a big triumph for me. Every vestige of what was in that house is gone now! I spent years looking at that crummy room knowing that all my free and not-so-free time was being invested into someone who would never give me anything back. It was a cleansing experience to stand back, all covered in paste and grime and look at those clean walls. The house is now becoming more and more of me - such a good feeling. You all know what it's like to be beaten down by an N.... I feel so good about having "a voice" now, even it is as something as simple as making my house "mine".

Anyway, enough of me for the moment..I have a question.

I read somewhere that a person becomes an N because of the way they were treated as a child. I have read also that the person who abused them were either N's themselves or suffered from schizophrenia.
Has anyone else heard or read accounts about this or have had first hand experience with it?

Now that my head is back on somewhat straight (not seeing her for two years helps) I'm trying to understand why my Nmother became the monster that she is.




JanetLG

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Re: Thank you re: Mother's Day and a question
« Reply #1 on: May 17, 2007, 04:21:41 PM »
Motherless,

I don't know if I can give you a definitive answer, but I can give you an interesting example or two.

My NMum was born in 1937, just before WW2. She was the third in the family, and was the 'baby' for 8 years, until her sister came along in 1945. No-one told her that her mum was pregnant, and just before the baby arrived, my mum was 'sent away' to relatives for 2 months. So when she came back, it was a shock to see this pretty baby (cute, blonde, curly hair - just like I was as a baby) taking HER place.

I have recently started tracing my family history, and I've found out that my Mum's mum (the one who had the baby in 1945) had been the first of 10 children. Her own mother had made a pact with *her* mother, that she was only allowed to leave home and get married if she promised to 'hand over' the first female child she had, in order for it to be a SERVANT to her own grandmother. My Nan happened to be the first girl child, so she was the one given away. Do you see a pattern here? There are bitter, evil women in my family, going back (at least) to the 1850's. It goes through the generations like a virus. Each mother is evil to at least one of her daughters, and the daughter takes it out on her own daughter. I'm pretty sure that one of my Mum's sisters is an N, and my sister DEFINITELY is.

While I was doing my family history reserach, I made contact through a website with someone who knew a lot about my family, but it turned out that she only wanted me to give her information, rather than share it both ways. She wanted *me* to be the one to pay for birth certificates, etc, and then copy the information for her, and look things up all the time. She turned out to be my Mum's long-lost cousin. Creepy!

I have read somewhere, that there are lots of women in their 40's and 50's dealing with Nparents just now, because WW2 was so traumatic for many people, that they took it out on their children (i.e.us). Don't know how valid that is, though.

Janet

Hopalong

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Re: Thank you re: Mother's Day and a question
« Reply #2 on: May 17, 2007, 06:34:37 PM »
Hi Mless,
What a joy to live in an oooold house. I envy you. (Not the work, but the atmosphere...)
And what a good question.

Janet, I'm sort of in shock...my Nmother was the oldest of 8. She describes her own mother as a downtrodden saint, and they were poor (so she became a nanny, memorized the etiquette books, became beyond a proper lady, married "well" and never looked back--iow, no worse snob than a formerly-poor snob). To your point...being supplanted by 7 other children might have been a shock. Also, my mother's father was a preacher, so she was first, the preacher's adored first child, then a co-mother with her exhausted mother, all the while keeping up the appearances so dear to tiny midwest evangelical churches. Later, a sister died at age 12, and her mother grieved so intensely my mother called it "morbid" (and she's allergic to funerals to this day). The kicker, I think the main cause, of her Nishness, was also likely to be that her father, the preacher, abused his daughters sexually (and was likely an N himself). She maintains he only "tried it with me once and I said, 'stop it, stop it or I'll tell mother'" and she has another story that she "saved" her sisters from the abuse by doing so, and remembers him on his knees in the parlor, anguishing with guilt. But I don't know how much of that might be self-protective revisionist history. Her middle sister's daughter told me it went on and on with her mother, my aunt, who was severely depressed her whole life. So...I think being the oldest is an interesting thing. My Nbrother was. My Nmother was. My Nex2 was.

Hmmm. I'm sure there's no hard-and-fast thing, but maybe there's a twisted sibling rivalry in some Ns, worse than the normal first-child jealousy of a newcomer? Fascinating thought.

Thanks to you both.

Hops
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."

mountainspring

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Re: Thank you re: Mother's Day and a question
« Reply #3 on: May 17, 2007, 08:12:25 PM »
Hi Motherless,

I’m glad you enjoyed your Freedom day!!  The why question is a loaded question.  I’ve asked it enough to make myself crazy and still ask it.  What I have to remind myself is the why doesn’t change anything and try to concentrate on what is and accepting that what is can’t be changed.  I think I’ll be reminding myself over and over on Memorial day weekend because I will be visiting my Grandmother, and I’m very excited about seeing her but dread the 5 days because I will be around my mother too, and I’m real triggered by her.   It’ll be practice, practice practice in taking things with a grain of salt.  I think I’ll have probably emptied a salt box by the time I leave!

My mother’s mother was very distant and cold, and my mothers father was very stern when her mother was in room, and a cut up when she left the room.  I know my mother’s childhood was a very unhappy one, but her sister doesn’t seem to be like my mother, and her brothers seem to be okay too.   I’m not sure if my mother was the scapegoat growing up.  I know her family was very poor and she had to wear my aunts hand me downs growing up.  Her clothes never fit. This may be the reason she’s so image conscious, but I don’t think her childhood explains it all.   I remember one time she was calling my sister in for dinner, and she was loud and mean as she was calling her in, and a neighbor heard her and asked her why she was so mean to her kids.  My mother came in and sobbed to my father about what the neighbor said and went on and on that she would ‘spread’ this around the neighborhood.  She never apologized to my sister.  It makes no sense.

I’m glad you spent the day fixing up your house.  It sounds like you had a lot of fun making it yours!  It must be neat living in a 200 year old house!

MS

spyralle

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Re: Thank you re: Mother's Day and a question
« Reply #4 on: May 18, 2007, 04:28:51 AM »
Hi all,

Just wanted to throw my mother into the mix because a lot of the stuff written here resonates with me...

My mother came from a family of seven...  She often describes herself as the seventh child of a seventh child though I only knew of two sisters and a brother..  My mother idlolised her mother.  When  you said Hops about the 'downtrodden saint', That is exactly how my mum describes her own mother.  She smiles fondly when she remembers the fact that when her mother could not be found, she would usually be sitting by a dead person somewhere in the street!!!!  My mother's father is a mysterious character.  I only found out his name a couple of years ago...  He seems to be a silet character who lurks about in the shadows of her memories...  My uncle is the only family member left.  My mother has not spoken to him since I was a child.. 

Oh and apparently because I am so bad...  I was the cause of both my aunties deaths...

Motherless, I admire you taking on an old house.  I live in one myself and the work has been endless.  It's nice to see that it is giving you joy xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Spyralle x

Hopalong

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Re: Thank you re: Mother's Day and a question
« Reply #5 on: May 18, 2007, 10:43:40 AM »
Hi MS,
But it makes perfect sense...
Quote
My mother came in and sobbed to my father about what the neighbor said and went on and on that she would ‘spread’ this around the neighborhood.  She never apologized to my sister.  It makes no sense.
Ns are alllllllll about image protection. So your sister's feelings were irrelevant. It was only the humiliation of having her public image affected that anguished your mother.  :(  Her anguish was quite real. But she wasn't able to perceive or care about your sister's. Aarrggh.

Hi Spy! Really nice to hear you.
Offed your aunties. My bountiful butt.

Grrrr.

Hops
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."

Motherless

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Re: Thank you re: Mother's Day and a question
« Reply #6 on: May 18, 2007, 02:44:03 PM »
I read all of your replies and every single one of them had a common thread as to how my family operated.

My mother was born in 1922 to immigrant parents who came from Ruthenia (now the present day Ukraine)... it's sort of between the Transylvanian and Carpathian mountains. I fact I found really neat but was abhorrent to my mother, who Anglicized her last name when she went to business school in Boston. She had an older sister who was born in 1919. Nana and Gram-pa settled in a very WASP community in Massachusetts, not a good choice. My mother ALWAYS wanted to be white-bread... and wanted nothing to do with her ethnic background. She was ashamed of who she was and wanted no association with it all.

My aunt was the darling of the family, outgoing, talented (concert pianist), tons of boyfriends, and very smart. From what my mother told me, she was an afterthought and not wanted. My grandmother told her that when she was pregnant with her she tried to abort her with hot mustard baths. My grandmother would beat my mother when she was a child for no reason or the tiniest infraction. I have a feeling something very bad happened between my grandmother and my grandfather. Never found out what though. In 1940, when my mother was a senior in HS my aunt contracted tuberculosis. She died later on that year a the age of 21. Pretty tragic.
I can imagine that there were many words as to, "how come it wasn't you" to my mother. Plus the grieving process afterwards took on an Eastern European flavor, like going to the cemetery and wailing over the gravesite. I can't imagine how the locals perceived that behavior.

Now, all of the information that I know was told to me by my mother. In some cases I can see definite spin doctoring, now knowing how she would lie to gardner sympathy from anyone who would listen. Some information has some truth to it.

My grandmother was pretty good me growing up but she always had a "edge". In the end she had to be institutionalized in a straight jacket. Totally went off her rocker. She was in a nursing home for 12 years, dying at the age of 96. I think in that 12 years, my mother only visited her 12 times. My Dad would go and so would I. When she died she never put anything in the paper, and my husband and I had to make all the arrangements. It was if my grandmother never existed.

Even weirder was that when my mother had my sister in 1946... (yes, after my dad came back from Europe and WWII) she named her after her dead sister. (pressure I think from my grandparents) I was born 8 years later. Everyone always looked at my sister as some kind of reincarnation of my dead aunt. Me, I was paralleled with my mother plus coupled with the fact that we looked identical. People on the street would know who I was, even if they didn't know me, but knew my mother. Creepy! A connection that I would rather not had, especially when I look in the mirror.

My sister is a N.... always was. She was not allowed to be in the same room with me alone when I was in a crib. Not hard to figure out that she was green with envy and jealous of me showing up after she had the limelight for seven-eight years. She was just like that little girl in the movie "The Bad Seed".
She would torture me, lock me in cupboards, burn me, blackmail me, etc. Except one day when she was supposed to be watching me (I was 4 or 5) ... she dragged me downstairs and tied me to lolly column in the basement. She knotted a rope and started hitting me in the head with it. My Dad came home unexpectedly and caught her. I think he would have killed my sister if my mother hadn't walked in the door. To this day I don't know what happened with my parents and that situation.
What I do know is that my father hated her from that point on.
I slept with one eye open after that until my sister left in 1971... and I haven't seen her since.

Looking back, I can remember my mother developing into an N - probably from around the time I was in grade school. There are specific memories of her being controlling, manipulative, along with using her famous "rejection" tool. She really liked that one, and used it on me frequently.

So, you can see there is what I would consider insanity in my family. Crazy grandmother, Nmother, Nsister, etc. I might look like my mother but don't have the same gene pool personality wise. Fortunately I take after my father and his family.
You can see why I asked the question about how an N develops into what they are.  Comparing my story to others out there really helps me understand how things got so out of hand.

As far as living in an old house...well, let's just say it's a brandnew experience everytime you do something to it. You'll never know what you'll find underneath when you scratch the surface!

JanetLG

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Re: Thank you re: Mother's Day and a question
« Reply #7 on: May 18, 2007, 04:47:16 PM »
Dear Motherless,

Ouch! Your post really struck a chord with me. The hatred your NSister felt for you reminds me of my own sister, but I think yours was much more extreme than mine. What a thing to have lived through - you're in my thoughts, you really are.

In my family, I have several female relatives with what I think of as having N traits (don't necessarily know if it's 'proper' NPD or not) - my Mum definitely, also my sister, then my mum's younger sister, their mother, their grandmother, possible their great grandmother....the list just goes on.

My Dad's side of the family has a couple of incidences of depression. My Mum always used to harp on about that to him, saying 'you've got madness on YOUR side of the family!' but never acknowledge anything wrong with her side.

I looked like my mum when I was younger, and I hated it (I've grown to look more like my Dad, now, fortunately). I think I drew her bitter comments about  my looks more because I reminded her of herself whenever she looked at me. But my behaviour was more like that of my Dad. As an adult, she often used to say 'You're just like your father!', but I used to get my own back by saying 'Thank you', which used to drive her up the wall. It was the highest insult for her, to compare me to a  man (which she did frequently).

Janet

mountainspring

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Re: Thank you re: Mother's Day and a question
« Reply #8 on: May 18, 2007, 08:24:53 PM »
Hi Hops...

Quote
But it makes perfect sense...

Yes it does... ugh

MS