proposed new theory on understanding narcissists

[SilverLining]

I'll take a stab at rewording it.

A model is proposed which does not address the origin of Nism  but explains what keeps the N process going.  The N is in a constant desperate process of creating and maintaining a "self".  (Perhaps this is because they didn't have enough affirmation or support as children).  So as adults they constantly need to get affirmation and support from others.  At the same time these others have been defined by the narcissist as inferior, and the N lacks the sensitivity to constructively draw the needed affirmation from others.  This creates  an explosive paradoxical situation in which the N needs others, but operates in a way which insures that their needs don't get met. When others don't meet their needs, the N retreats further into the "grandiose" self conception as a defense.   And so they get more and more crazy, obnoxious and hard to take until the system falls apart. 

[michael]

 

I'll take a stab at rewording it.

A model is proposed which does not address the origin of Nism  but explains what keeps the N process going.  The N is in a constant desperate process of creating and maintaining a "self".  (Perhaps this is because they didn't have enough affirmation or support as children).  So as adults they constantly need to get affirmation and support from others.  At the same time these others have been defined by the narcissist as inferior, and the N lacks the sensitivity to constructively draw the needed affirmation from others.  This creates  an explosive paradoxical situation in which the N needs others, but operates in a way which insures that their needs don't get met. When others don't meet their needs, the N retreats further into the "grandiose" self conception as a defense.   And so they get more and more crazy, obnoxious and hard to take until the system falls apart. 

in terms from the above paste about ..the system falls apart...
as all that is not consistent and only what is consistent is that which is according to the creators will
to consider the needs of others before one's own
all not consistent falls apart...
but that may take many lifetimes
and in the meantime it can temporarily strengthen a person in the world apparently thruout their whole life sometimes
and it fall apart for them after death perhaps as perhaps in psalm 73
but in the meantime back on earth and the havoc they started is maintained by evil entities
that gained power by way of the havoc the narcissist helped in breaking down others hopes...
of course if one were truly centered in the spirit their hopes could not be broken down

[michael]

We propose a dynamic self-regulatory processing model of narcissism and review supporting evidence. The model casts narcissism in terms of motivated self-construction, in that the narcissist's self is shaped by the dynamic interaction of cognitive and affective intrapersonal processes and interpersonal self-regulatory strategies that are played out in the social arena. A grandiose yet vulnerable self-concept appears to underlie the chronic goal of obtaining continuous external self-affirmation. Because narcissists are insensitive to others' concerns and social constraints and view others as inferior, their self-regulatory efforts often are counterproductive and ultimately prevent the positive feedback that they seek-thus undermining the self they are trying to create and maintain. We draw connections between this model and other processing models in personality and employ these models to further elucidate the construct of narcissism. Reconceptualizing narcissism as a self-regulatory processing system promises to resolve many of its apparent paradoxes, because by understanding how narcissistic cognition, affect, and motivation interrelate, their internal subjective logic and coherence come into focus.

SO NOW..HMMM.... IT SAYS ..CHRONIC GOAL OF OBTAINING CONTINUOUS EXTERNAL SELF-AFFIRMATION...i kind of wonder ifn i were to buy the article it might say an issue to help the narcissist is to see that they dont recognize fully the nature of their need for external self-affirmation and quite often to the contrary that they feel rather what they seek is not self affirmation as they assume a false sureness about their worth but rather what they think is disturbing is when others dont appreciate them for their great worth..welll duh , i guess tho that tho the pasted abstract pretty much says that when it speaks of the narcissists...grandiose yet vulnerable self-concept...now why are narcissists so insenstive ot others' concerns and view them as inferior to their own concerns...I THINK THIS MIGHT VARY... IN SOME CASES CAUSE THE ASSUME THAT THERE CONCERN FOR OTHERS IS WONDERFUL OR EXCEPTIONAL BUT DO NOT RECOGNIZE THAT ANY CHALLENGE TO IT TRIGGERS IN THEM A FEAR OF BEING OVERWHELMED BY THEIR OWN SELF DOUBT AND RATHER THAN FACE THAT THEY BECOME SKILLED IN CHOOSING THOSE WHO THEY CAN MANIPUTLATE THRU THE OTHERS SELF DOUBT SO AS NOT HAVE TO FACE THEIR OWN SELF DOUBT ....i spoke of a variaiton PERHAPS SUCH AS WHAT THE NARCISSIST CAN DO ON THE LARGER SCALE OF LIFE IS SO IMPORTANT THAT WHAT OTHERS THINK IS NOT IMPORTANT AND COMES FROM BEING INFERIOR AND NOT ONLY INFERIOR BUT WOULD IMPEDE THE GREATER SCHEME OF THINGS AS THE NARCISSIST SEES IT AND THUS  A PLAN OF BEST WAY TO HANDLE DAMAGE CONTROL IS CHOSEN WHERE PERHAPS ONE MUST HIDE THAT IS THEIR INTENTIONS TILL THEY HAVE THE POWER TO DISPOSE OF THEM.....the first type is more the nature of a narcissist and the later more the nature of a malignant narcissist or psychopath.......

[michael]

We propose a dynamic self-regulatory processing model of narcissism and review supporting evidence. The model casts narcissism in terms of motivated self-construction, in that the narcissist's self is shaped by the dynamic interaction of cognitive and affective intrapersonal processes and interpersonal self-regulatory strategies that are played out in the social arena. A grandiose yet vulnerable self-concept appears to underlie the chronic goal of obtaining continuous external self-affirmation. Because narcissists are insensitive to others' concerns and social constraints and view others as inferior, their self-regulatory efforts often are counterproductive and ultimately prevent the positive feedback that they seek-thus undermining the self they are trying to create and maintain. We draw connections between this model and other processing models in personality and employ these models to further elucidate the construct of narcissism. Reconceptualizing narcissism as a self-regulatory processing system promises to resolve many of its apparent paradoxes, because by understanding how narcissistic cognition, affect, and motivation interrelate, their internal subjective logic and coherence come into focus.

SO NOW..HMMM.... IT SAYS ..CHRONIC GOAL OF OBTAINING CONTINUOUS EXTERNAL SELF-AFFIRMATION...i kind of wonder ifn i were to buy the article it might say an issue to help the narcissist is to see that they dont recognize fully the nature of their need for external self-affirmation and quite often to the contrary that they feel rather what they seek is not self affirmation as they assume a false sureness about their worth but rather what they think is disturbing is when others dont appreciate them for their great worth..welll duh , i guess tho that tho the pasted abstract pretty much says that when it speaks of the narcissists...grandiose yet vulnerable self-concept...now why are narcissists so insenstive ot others' concerns and view them as inferior to their own concerns...I THINK THIS MIGHT VARY... IN SOME CASES CAUSE THE ASSUME THAT THERE CONCERN FOR OTHERS IS WONDERFUL OR EXCEPTIONAL BUT DO NOT RECOGNIZE THAT ANY CHALLENGE TO IT TRIGGERS IN THEM A FEAR OF BEING OVERWHELMED BY THEIR OWN SELF DOUBT AND RATHER THAN FACE THAT THEY BECOME SKILLED IN CHOOSING THOSE WHO THEY CAN MANIPUTLATE THRU THE OTHERS SELF DOUBT SO AS NOT HAVE TO FACE THEIR OWN SELF DOUBT ....i spoke of a variaiton PERHAPS SUCH AS WHAT THE NARCISSIST CAN DO ON THE LARGER SCALE OF LIFE IS SO IMPORTANT THAT WHAT OTHERS THINK IS NOT IMPORTANT AND COMES FROM BEING INFERIOR AND NOT ONLY INFERIOR BUT WOULD IMPEDE THE GREATER SCHEME OF THINGS AS THE NARCISSIST SEES IT AND THUS  A PLAN OF BEST WAY TO HANDLE DAMAGE CONTROL IS CHOSEN WHERE PERHAPS ONE MUST HIDE THAT IS THEIR INTENTIONS TILL THEY HAVE THE POWER TO DISPOSE OF THEM.....the first type is more the nature of a narcissist and the later more the nature of a malignant narcissist or psychopath.......

HMMM THIS PUTS ME IN MIND OF WHAT I KIND OF RECALL AS 2 DIFFERENT CHILDHOOD EXPERINCES THAT BE ONES THAT CAN SPAWN NARCISSISTS..
THAT ARE KIND OF POLAR OPPOSITES..
one where they are expected to be the wonderful golden boy or girl and thus they fear losing their good standing by doubting that they
are not the golden boy or girl.. thus they evade issues of self doubt...

and then the polar opposite where the parents heap abuse and doubt of the goodness on the child
and as a means of survival and strength they bounce off the parents negative image they make of the child
by the child assuming that all efforts to cause them self doubt are efforts to destroy them
and that in fact they do have abiliities and powers that seem to gain recognition and success...

in both cases a kind of success drive by a kind of elimination self doubt is key here

i suspect the golden boy type tends more towards narcissism
and the latter towards malignant narcissism aka psychopathy

[Confounded]

In reading on the subject I have noted that N has a strong hereditary component.  Thus, I am reluctant to focus on the environment too any great degree. This has been borne out by my personal experience. 

After receiving the diagnosis of "N tendencies" for my H, and having continued problems with his periodic fits of insistence that he is always right (huh?) and anger, I called his mother, looking for explanations and suggestions.  She advised, bottom line, that his father was the same way.  She said that she "ignored" his dad, who "had some very strong ideas," and "once he got going there was no point in talking to him."

I am very interested in any article that can explain what the internal experience is like for the N.  The way that thought process works, I cannot figure out. 

I find myself thinking, "Well, if I'm wrong, and somebody corrects me, then they actually help me. They leave me better than they found me.  However, if someone functioning as an N refuses to see or admit when he's wrong, then he's wrong twice.  He's wrong once in the issue at hand, and again in his refusal to accept that he is mistaken.  Why don't they feel embarrassed?  It's like the Emperor's new clothes.  He's naked for God's sake!" 

I think it's pretty sad.  Sometimes he seems to be posing (e.g., saying that he's always right) simply to aggravate me, and at other times, he seems to actually believe it.  I don't think that he talks to himself internally.  Maybe everybody has an internal dialog, although I have the impression that he may not (hmmm... is there something to this?).  Anyway, if he did have an internal dialog, I think it might sound like this at times, "It's okay.  I'm not wrong.  She's wrong.  I'm not wrong.  She needs to stop saying that I'm wrong.  I'm NOT wrong.  I"M NOT WRONG!  GRRRR!!!"  But then at other times, he can now joke about it, saying, "Oh sure. I'm never wrong.  Never.  (smile)"  It seems like he goes into a delusional state at times, and at other times he is somehow aware that he can become delusional.

In the end, since he hardly pays any attention to anything that is not directly related to his getting his needs met, he knows very little about many things that go on in his immediate vicinity.  Thus, he often has little information with which to operate, and he makes numerous mistakes.  We wants none of these mentioned.  If I tell him that he didn't do something as we had discussed previously, he gets furious. 

What ends up happening feels very odd.  I start thinking that maybe I'm an N because I'm the one finding fault.  But then I think, "I'm just trying to get him to act normal and remember what we discuss."  I suppose that if I worry that I might be an N, when I become annoyed by his chronic  inability to focus on anything outside his own priorities, then I'm probably not an N.  But this talk of needing affirmation (I am more motivated by kudos than $), wanting to do things right (not pretend, actually do it right), and thinking that lots of other people can't cut it (I prefer to deal with other professionals, people who think and speak quickly), sounds like me.  Except that I'm willing to do the work to get the kudos, and if I screw up I definitely want to know about it.  So I just keep coming back the difference between genuine self-confidence and some kind of defensive false confidence, unable to be real, for fear of some horrible outcome.  I don't know what that horrible outcome could be.  Seems like it would be worse to look like an idiot insisting that one is right, when clearly has no clue.

If anybody knows, or has a source that explains, what the inner thoughts are in the N state of mind, I would really appreciate more info on this. 

[michael]

In reading on the subject I have noted that N has a strong hereditary component.  Thus, I am reluctant to focus on the environment too any great degree. This has been borne out by my personal experience. 

After receiving the diagnosis of "N tendencies" for my H, and having continued problems with his periodic fits of insistence that he is always right (huh?) and anger, I called his mother, looking for explanations and suggestions.  She advised, bottom line, that his father was the same way.  She said that she "ignored" his dad, who "had some very strong ideas," and "once he got going there was no point in talking to him."

I am very interested in any article that can explain what the internal experience is like for the N.  The way that thought process works, I cannot figure out. 

I find myself thinking, "Well, if I'm wrong, and somebody corrects me, then they actually help me. They leave me better than they found me.  However, if someone functioning as an N refuses to see or admit when he's wrong, then he's wrong twice.  He's wrong once in the issue at hand, and again in his refusal to accept that he is mistaken.  Why don't they feel embarrassed?  It's like the Emperor's new clothes.  He's naked for God's sake!" 

I think it's pretty sad.  Sometimes he seems to be posing (e.g., saying that he's always right) simply to aggravate me, and at other times, he seems to actually believe it.  I don't think that he talks to himself internally.  Maybe everybody has an internal dialog, although I have the impression that he may not (hmmm... is there something to this?).  Anyway, if he did have an internal dialog, I think it might sound like this at times, "It's okay.  I'm not wrong.  She's wrong.  I'm not wrong.  She needs to stop saying that I'm wrong.  I'm NOT wrong.  I"M NOT WRONG!  GRRRR!!!"  But then at other times, he can now joke about it, saying, "Oh sure. I'm never wrong.  Never.  (smile)"  It seems like he goes into a delusional state at times, and at other times he is somehow aware that he can become delusional.

In the end, since he hardly pays any attention to anything that is not directly related to his getting his needs met, he knows very little about many things that go on in his immediate vicinity.  Thus, he often has little information with which to operate, and he makes numerous mistakes.  We wants none of these mentioned.  If I tell him that he didn't do something as we had discussed previously, he gets furious. 

What ends up happening feels very odd.  I start thinking that maybe I'm an N because I'm the one finding fault.  But then I think, "I'm just trying to get him to act normal and remember what we discuss."  I suppose that if I worry that I might be an N, when I become annoyed by his chronic  inability to focus on anything outside his own priorities, then I'm probably not an N.  But this talk of needing affirmation (I am more motivated by kudos than $), wanting to do things right (not pretend, actually do it right), and thinking that lots of other people can't cut it (I prefer to deal with other professionals, people who think and speak quickly), sounds like me.  Except that I'm willing to do the work to get the kudos, and if I screw up I definitely want to know about it.  So I just keep coming back the difference between genuine self-confidence and some kind of defensive false confidence, unable to be real, for fear of some horrible outcome.  I don't know what that horrible outcome could be.  Seems like it would be worse to look like an idiot insisting that one is right, when clearly has no clue.

If anybody knows, or has a source that explains, what the inner thoughts are in the N state of mind, I would really appreciate more info on this. 

AN ASPECT THAT FOR ME CONNECTS THE THREADS OF ENVIRONMENT AND HEREDITY...IS REINCARNATION....THAT THUS ONE DOES NOT CONTRADICT THE OTHER ..U C?

[MICHAEL]

I'll take a stab at rewording it.

A model is proposed which does not address the origin of Nism  but explains what keeps the N process going.  The N is in a constant desperate process of creating and maintaining a "self".  (Perhaps this is because they didn't have enough affirmation or support as children).  So as adults they constantly need to get affirmation and support from others.  At the same time these others have been defined by the narcissist as inferior, and the N lacks the sensitivity to constructively draw the needed affirmation from others.  This creates  an explosive paradoxical situation in which the N needs others, but operates in a way which insures that their needs don't get met. When others don't meet their needs, the N retreats further into the "grandiose" self conception as a defense.   And so they get more and more crazy, obnoxious and hard to take until the system falls apart. 

DEAR JR MEMBER ,
A RATHER NICE REWORDING BUT A BETTER ONE IS MINE.... OOPS IS MY NARCISSISM SHOWING....JUST KIDDING

SINCERELY, A GUEST

[MICHAEL]

IN TERMS OF HEREDITARY ASPECTS...
SOMEONE BY NAME OF BENIS PROPOSED 3 HERITARY TRAITS
TO EXPLAIN PERSONALITY TYPES..
NARCISSISTIC
PERFECTIONIST
AGGRESSIVE..
THUS THE NPA THEORY..
THEN A MISALOV GRUNDMANN SUGGESTED A FOURTH TRAIT..
WHICH HE CALLED T  
This new trait may be linked to a non cooperative behavior and its strongest expression is present in 4,7 and 8 enneagram types. This trait is completely absent in 1,2 and 5 enneagram types.
WHAT HE IS REFFERING TO ENNEGRAM WISE IS A PERSONALITY TYPOLOGY SYSTEM
WHERE GENERALLY NARCISSISTS AND PSYCHOPATHS ARE TYPE 3 OF 9 TYPES...

THO BENIS THE ORIGINATOR OF NPA THEORY DOES NOT FEEL THAT GRUNDMANN THEORY
FITS IN WELL..
I THINK IT DOES AND IS WORTH CONSIDERING
THERE IS NOT MUCH ONLINE ON THE GRUNDMANN VERSION THAT I CAN FIND
BUT HERE IS A LINK TO IT
http://www.mip.ups-tlse.fr/~grundman/NPTA.html

ALL RIGHTY NOW FOR A SPECIFIC ASPECT THAT KIND OF INTRIGUES ME
IN TERMS OF SYMMETRY IN A SYSTEM AND WHAT DISTURBS SYMMETRY ..PART OF THE PATTERN THAT I WILL NOT GET INTO NOW BUT PART OF THE BREAK UP OF SYMMETRY INVOLVES I THINK HOW TYPE 3 ENDS UP AS THE ONLY ONE OF THE 9 TYPES HAVING ALL 4 TRAITS....
ANYWAYS MORE LATER ON THIS MAYBE
ONCE I COGITATE MORE ON HOW THIS MIGHT CONNECT TO THE SELF REGULATORY ISSUE
WHICH I KIND OF SUSPECT IT MIGHT

[CB123]

Confounded,

I almost lost your post in the middle of all the CAPS in Michael's extended posts.  Can you repost in a new thread?  I think your question is a good one and I suspect that others may have overlooked it as well.

CB