Forgiveness

[isittoolate]

Hi CB,

As I post these articles which I have written to my daughter and hear her honest replies, I feel more and more forgiveness on both sides.

Eventually iit will come if I don't blow it.

We live 2000 miles aprt, but we are still mother and daughter. and if the words of forgiveness come forward, then the ACTION of forgiveness must follow--but what do we do with the the geographical distance?????

I am the disabled one who cannot travel-- She and the kids would have to fly out here--and really it is just her and me. THe kids would have to stay alone, ---18 and 15.
Time will tell

We are not quite ready for that!

Love
Izzy

[mudpuppy]

We all know how N's are created.

I don't.

mud

[isittoolate]

Well mud, you must have an idea. I do because I have heard about the childhood of a little boy turned to a grown up N.

I also have read so many posts from others, about the childhood of their Ns, that we are sure, alomg with scienrtists, the N-isn begins in early childhood from either of the following 2 reasons

1.) being given too much and always being the Golden Boy who could never do wrong
2.) being physically and verbally abused so badly that he could see no reason why he would have a good life and set out to ruin the lives of others.

That make any sense?

Izzy

[Margo]

Forgiveness..... as I understand it and relate to it..... can be as simple as letting go.

If someone is requesting forgiveness, however...... that's a different matter. 

I once read the Jewish requirements for forgiveness and embraced them as rational and accepted them.

1) The person asking forgiveness should state what they've done, how their actions affected the other person, why they did what they did, how they're going to avoid doing it in the future and finally, and most importantly.... NOT do it again. 

I believe that if a person asks for forgiveness the right way 9 times.... and does not receive it.... the person refusing to forgive is committing a sin.  Don't quote me exactly but this is what I took from the information.  Margo

[mudpuppy]

Izzy,

Well mud, you must have an idea.

I suspect some are created the way you describe or at least the treatment you describe may contribute to the formation of
Ns. However others seem not to have had excessive 'Golden Boy' treatment, overt or covert abuse or parental neglect. A lot of these people seem to come from relatively happy homes. So, no I can't really say I have any idea what creates a lot of Ns.

That make any sense?

Sure. However lots of things that make sense aren't actually true. Maybe the things you mention create all Ns or maybe some fraction of them of either lesser or greater size. Or maybe they just sound plausible so we assume they are. I put very little stock in what psychology has to say about either the origin or the cure for many disorders. I do however think it is highly valuable in the diagnosis and description of mental illness.

mud

[Portia]

Izzy

Eventually iit will come if I don't blow it.

I read your other threads. Me, I think 'failure' becomes the result only when one of you is dead. Until then, there is always opportunity for things to change. ?

We live 2000 miles aprt, but we are still mother and daughter. and if the words of forgiveness come forward, then the ACTION of forgiveness must follow--but what do we do with the the geographical distance?????

Is there an action of forgiveness? If forgiveness is in my heart and another's heart, it is there. To know that we are understood and loved - that can happen without physical proximity i think. At least, i think I've experienced that. What is in the heart (or head) to me is bigger than distance. Maybe that helps, maybe not!


Michael,
you've lost me I'm afraid. i don't understand but no worries there. I often don't understand.


Mud,
read your post page 2 and it pretty much makes sense to me, as i see it. Is it okay for a non-Christian to attempt to emulate Christ? Without believing in God as such? Pondering. Rhetorical question really. Wondering where a lack of faith in this sense, but a willingness to understand and agree with some/most of the ideas, places a non-believer. Wondering why the difference is such a big difference (which it seems to be?) and does it have to be? Ha - in other words - can we decide to change the rules? Now I'm making my own head hurt.

Michael and Mud,
PMS - I don't know which was meant. PMS also means a bus company to me but I thought it meant PMs. (hey......I can have pre, post and mid menstrual tension!)

[mudpuppy]

Is it okay for a non-Christian to attempt to emulate Christ? Without believing in God as such?

Certainly, but I'm not sure why anyone would want to do it without a belief that He was your salvation. It entails being routinely kicked in the head when attempting to love your enemy. It's considerably more pleasant to adopt the 'eat, drink and be merry for tomorrow we die' attitude if you do not believe.

Ha - in other words - can we decide to change the rules?

If you believe the rules to be manmade you are certainly entitled to change them, subject to the imposition of other people's own version of the rules of course. The problem arises upon our inevitable visit to Shakespeare's 'undiscovered country' wherein I believe we will find that the rules were immutably written before we existed and they were explained to us fully in the here and now as was who the author is, but most of us chose to write our own version anyway.

mud

[Hopalong]

Hi Mud,
I have retained Christian ethics although not the belief system or semantics.

It is a core truth for me that Do Unto Others is the point. Other vocabulary for me that fits is compassion.
(Meaning that in a very athletic way...)

So whether or not I believe Christ is my salvation (I don't find the formula constructive) I believe I am, or more likely many others are, "as good as" fine Christians, whether or not they accept the belief statements.

I know it's a club you can't join without joining it, but I think some'd be happy to have me come to the picnics, if they didn't have those membership rules that meant they weren't allowed to accept me.

Convolutedly,
Hops

[Portia]

Thanks Mud. Why would anyone want to? For the love of humanity maybe, for thinking that we don't have to choose to destroy ourselves, for thinking that there is something worthwhile about us, for a feeling (not a thought) of belonging to all. Yes i can see it would be more pleasant to eat drink and be merry (and sometimes I do!) but.......you know....I said to my H the other day, in future, maybe not too far away, people will say: they knew what was happening and they didn't stop it, they allowed the carnage to continue. It's not easy I know, to stop people wanting to kill each other, to grab land etc...but being merry to me is always in the knowledge that someone somewhere is not able to be merry, as it were. Okay, splurging my stuff on here isn't helping any, but it's only my thoughts and feelings I'm yakking about - I ain't solving any problems and I don't pretend to.

Loving my enemy.......does that have to be active (so you get kicked in the head), or can it be passive? I might love my enemy.....from a great distance. If I don't understand the meaning of loving my enemy, I promise it's true ignorance on my part.

The thing is....I don't do any of this thinking because of an external pull, i do it well, because I want to. I want to just because I want to, not because of anything else. (Death doesn't come into it for me.) Ah - maybe there is something in the idea that I'm not exactly looking for salvation? i don't think I am. Hmmm. Maybe there's a clue for me. As always, thanks for helping me work out the grey matter....

[michael]

A NOT SO FINE TOOTH COMB ---- GOING OVER SOME OF POSTS IN THIS THREAD...

FROM POST BY MUD...

« Reply #25 on: May 18, 2007, 01:09:48 PM .... I think the argument is made that Christ is referring to Christians when he uses the terms "brother" and "when they repent" because of the whole counsel of the bible. We are told later by Paul that Christians are to hold accountable other Christians but that we are not to judge the world. Elsewhere Christ tells us to bless, not curse, those who spitefully use us. We are told to turn the other cheek to our enemies, not rebuke them. If they thirst we are to give them a drink of water.
It seems clear to me that Christians have an obligation to forgive unconditionally, as Portia put it, those who they do not know to be Christians. Likewise they have an obligation to correct and exhort to righteousness those Christians who have sinned against them.
As His followers Christians are to do their best not to bring shame or disrepute to Christ. A non Christian's sin brings no disrepute to Christ, but a Christian's does. That is why we are to forgive the former and correct the latter.

YES IN THAT PASSAGE THE CONTEXT THE REFERENCE IS AS  TO FELLOW CHRISTIANS....BUT SOME ASPECTS I THINK CAN BE STRETCHED TO A WIDER CONTEST AS I SUGGESTED THAT WHEN A NON CHRISTIAN COMMITS A CERTAIN KIND OF SIN THAT THE APPROBRIATE ACTION CAN BE REBUKE.... JESUS CERTAINLY POINTED OUT OTHERS HYPOCRISY IN WHAT I THINK WAS A KIND OF REBUKE....AND PERHAPS A LARGER PART OF WHY CRUCIFICTION OF JESUS WAS SOUGHT BY LEADERS AND ELDERS OF THE JEWS..... PERHAPS A FURTHER STUDY OF THE GREEK WORD TRANSLATED AS REBUKE  IN LUKE MIGHT HELP AT SOME...THE POINT...  there seems to be maybe an assumption made that non christians are not aware of their choice of evil and tnus should be automatically forgiven.... which i am not so sure is correct....surely tho as jesus said tis true if the case truely be..forgive them for they know not what they do.... but that to me is not the nature a type of sin jesus speaks of in luke 12... where that kind of sin has the consequences of being caste among unbelievers and the body being torn asunder...and i do not think believers there refers just to christians rather non believers in the golden rule....that allows self justification for knowing one is doing evil to another and thinks one can get away with it successfully for self aggrandizement ....something narcissists and pyschopaths seem to be into....
but on different levels...

now as to a portia post

Re: Forgiveness
« Reply #13 on: May 18, 2007, 08:06:08 AM  .... Forgiveness is unconditional. i don't think it's linked to boundaries. I can forgive someone but still be wary of them and maintain my boundaries. Forgiveness seems to involve a lack of investment, a lack of caring about how the other person relates to you/oneself.

i think one is not as effective as one could be if one is not clear of boundaries of different types...
and as jesus suggests in some cases .... readiness to forgive should be always there but not given in some cases if the other does not repent as that could make one guilty in a way of enabling bad behaviour and in a way is what narcissists and pscyopaths seek is a trick to coopt your energy and integrity as that can make it easier for them to manipulate others for their own self aggrandizement at your expense tho they might think that they are including you in a new and wonderful world as they see it...more the narcissist case there usually i think..but if u question their wonderful world you can be seen as evil or a danger that is best neutralized if they can....
i could say more but some might say fortunately .....

[WRITE]

Is it okay for a non-Christian to attempt to emulate Christ? Without believing in God as such?

Certainly, but I'm not sure why anyone would want to do it without a belief that He was your salvation.

I don't believe in heaven or the literal interpretation of the metaphorical or mythological aspects of religion but I follow Christ. His teachings are very good ways to live and a good path to G_d.

I think we misinterpret 'love' sometimes though, we tie it up with an outcome, you know I believe in interfaith, the Buddhists call it attachment. We attach certain expectations to 'love'. But it is possible to love and simply be, do nothing.

Jesus was very clear about behaviours he encouraged, taking care of the poor, feed the hungry, comfort others. I have come to a place where I hand most things to G_d though. I do what I can.

I feel that way about ex now. I love him, and I help practically and emotionally where I can. But I am not helping anyone merely to suffer and suffer, or allowing him to abuse me.

Before- I think I thought it was somehow Christian and noble to suffer, now I see it more as enabling his bad behaviour also not taking full responsibility for myself.

There is also a cultural aspect to my chosen religion; Buddhism is the only other religion I have followed closely but it always felt somewhat affected and I found myself often praying and thinking in the constructs of my CHristian background.

I have full confidence to live my faith as I see it now, Jesus said love G_d above all things and your fellow as yourself were the most important commandments.

If G_d called me to be a Muslim though I would. It is my relationship with G_d, or whatever people call it, which is important. I have never been led astray when I have acted in love.

Our religions go wrong when we forget G_d is love in my opinion; we try to make G_d a person with human qualities and project ours. When people do bad things and say it was guided of G_d, I don't think it was.

I use the sermon on the mount mostly as my guidance, and I studied the Greek too and the gnostic texts and Judaism.

Jesus said 'if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.'

I have no anger towards the abusive people in my life, but then I have done a lot of therapy, a lot of praying and a lot of tears...

Forgiveness for me as a Christian is handing it to G_d.

[axa]

`Wow, What amazing posts.

I feel a bit simplistic really.  I try and live my life the way I would want others to treat me.  I do not think about salvation and do not practise any particular religion.  Maybe I am coming from a completely selfish perspective but I know if I treat others badly I feel badly so maybe my motivation is purely selfish....

I think about do I forgive another XN in my life.  I feel nothing for him.  He treated me very badly but somehow that seems to have faded to some extent.  I still acknowledge the lies etc but feel nothing about him.  Maybe that is as near as I can come to forgiveness.  I think, as i have said in another post, that my goal is to forgive myself.

I believe this is deep seated and linked to the fact that I could not "save my Nparents" from a life of anger and rage.  I keep rerunning the pattern of N relationship with the crazy hope of maybe if I can get an N to stop being angry(which we all know is an absolute waste of time)  it will let me off the hook for not "fixing" my parents lives. 

There are so many posts I want to refer to but the thread is so long I cant do that.  Someone posted that maybe forgiveness is about not being connected or something along that lines.  My question is is forgiveness about taking back your own power?  My sense is that it is all about ourselves.  We can never undo what was done.  Ns IME are not too concerned about whether or not they are forgiven.  It is the victim is left with the "burden" of forgiveness.  But I wonder is it a burden that has been there since childhood and we are just rerunning the tapes with the current/XN?

Axa

[Portia]

Michael

readiness to forgive should be always there but not given in some cases if the other does not repent as that could make one guilty in a way of enabling bad behaviour

I see what you mean, if you see forgiveness as an active event. I think sometimes it is - your forgiveness of a transgression of mine helps me change and changes our relationship. Okay, that's where forgiveness is part of a process between two people, a process of understanding, reconciliation etc.

On the other hand, i do see another type of forgiveness as something that happens inside me. It's a letting go of blame, of any thoughts of being owed a debt, of letting go the idea that is my place to do any rebuking. If my heart does not hold on to the wish for revenge, if the injury does not hurt any more as it did, then I can forgive, i think. BUT this type of forgiveness is not necessarily reciprocal. It happens to one person and is about them, it's not about a living relationship.

Is forgiveness given, so much as *accepted* by the one who has transgressed? If you forgive me, does that pave the way for me to forgive myself? And which of those is more important or interesting?

and in a way is what narcissists and pscyopaths seek is a trick to coopt your energy and integrity

Well I've been here a long time and over this time I've kind of come to an acceptance of how i see Ns and psychopaths. Done a lot of thinking. Unless they're threatening me with a knife, or about to blow up another country, I'm not afraid of either. I may meet some people who wish to trick me, but it doesn't worry me so much any more. I don't spend too much time thinking about Ns and psychopaths, and i don't see them as my enemy. Do you?

i could say more but some might say fortunately .....

I smiled Michael

[Portia]

Write 

But it is possible to love and simply be, do nothing.
oh yes i agree

Axa

Maybe I am coming from a completely selfish perspective but I know if I treat others badly I feel badly so maybe my motivation is purely selfish....

how about reciprocal? we don't exist alone. We need each other.

My question is is forgiveness about taking back your own power?

I beginning to think so (because of thinking around this thread, thank you Write!). I forgive because I'm not holding on to anything that makes me feel bad - revenge, hurt, unmet needs... there's nothing I want or need from the one I thought i wanted to forgive. ? how about you? I think feeling nothing is the start of forgiveness, well, for me, yes. Forgiveness is what we say in our hearts:  i think for us "I forgive you" - we say that to ourselves to know that we're free.

I read years ago on some list of 100 things to do before you die: Forgive your parents ....

and I scoffed. No way! Why should I! but I have and they have no idea of that. They don't need to know. They don't need to know all the ways i was hurt, from my perspective. I needed to know....

love, P

[Hopalong]

Hi Axa,
I know what you mean. I used to feel forgiveness was a burden, a thing I "had" to do in order to be a good person.

After hearing that sermon on it, which was timed really well for me...I think it's switched over. I don't feel forgiveness is a burden any more. I feel it (I literally feel it, rather than "I think this about it") is a opportunity.

And I don't think it can be forced. I think it is part of healing, and it almost sneaks up on you. Like, when you're doing every other thing you can to heal yourself and restore your sense of sanity and find positive community and become connected and look for reasons to be hopeful or at lest peaceful, then you can all of a sudden realize, I forgive ___.

And then it's such a relief. I think the not-able-to-forgive state is the burden...it feels heavy.

I have one person I still would like to forgive. (Last Nbf...it's been 2 years.) I shy away from thinking about him and when I did run into him once I felt very cold.

The biggest challenge for me is the feeling that they have future victims. Very difficult to let that go, let the future victims be on their own in that howling void. But I can't rescue them.

I guess that's why people pray for others, sometimes it's all you can do.

love
Hops