Author Topic: Forgiveness  (Read 11451 times)

Hurt

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Re: Forgiveness
« Reply #45 on: May 20, 2007, 06:45:23 PM »
CB,

Your story has moved my emotions alot...  I don't really have any comments under this thread but I would like to talk to you.

Hurt

CB123

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Re: Forgiveness
« Reply #46 on: May 20, 2007, 07:14:54 PM »
Hurt,

I received your PM as well.  Although I would love to trust everyone who comes on this board, experience has shown that that is not wise.

Give us all a chance to get to know you before we share specifics of our stories.  I know that you have a lot to share--anyone whose handle is "Hurt", has a lot beneath the surface.  And we really are here to listen to anyone who needs a place to vent and tell our stories.  I told mine when I first came, and the support I found here was such help.  I think we have all found that it is in the telling and retelling of what we have been through that we bring about our own healing.  It's a catharsis that can't happen by only listening to what others have been through.

You are welcome here and I hope you'll share more.

CB
When they are older and telling their own children about their grandmother, they will be able to say that she stood in the storm, and when the wind did not blow her way -- and it surely has not -- she adjusted her sails.  Elizabeth Edwards 2010

MICHAEL

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Re: Forgiveness
« Reply #47 on: May 21, 2007, 05:06:45 AM »
Write 

But it is possible to love and simply be, do nothing.
oh yes i agree

Axa

Maybe I am coming from a completely selfish perspective but I know if I treat others badly I feel badly so maybe my motivation is purely selfish....

how about reciprocal? we don't exist alone. We need each other.

My question is is forgiveness about taking back your own power?

I beginning to think so (because of thinking around this thread, thank you Write!). I forgive because I'm not holding on to anything that makes me feel bad - revenge, hurt, unmet needs... there's nothing I want or need from the one I thought i wanted to forgive. ? how about you? I think feeling nothing is the start of forgiveness, well, for me, yes. Forgiveness is what we say in our hearts:  i think for us "I forgive you" - we say that to ourselves to know that we're free.

I read years ago on some list of 100 things to do before you die: Forgive your parents ....

and I scoffed. No way! Why should I! but I have and they have no idea of that. They don't need to know. They don't need to know all the ways i was hurt, from my perspective. I needed to know....

love, P





ALL RIGHTY NOW...
THE FIRST PART FROM ABOVE ABOUT..But it is possible to love and simply be, do nothing.
oh yes i agree
IT IS POSSIBLE PERHAPS IN A WAY WHERE DOING NOTHING IS DOING THE RIGHT THING
..i am not sure what the context was for the statement IT IS POSSIBLE TO LOVE AND SIMPLY BE..if for a particular situation
not reacting in a  certain way to how one is being pressued to act is doing the right thing but it is still a doing
of love and willingness to do when the time is right for doing.... but sometimes the right thing is to rebuke in love...
sometimes it is to take the burden of others as our own in a way that helps the other see the light...sometimes taking the other burden
can enable their bad behaviour and is not the right thing to do.....THE REAL WHAT TO DO IS THE POWER OF DISCERNMENT THAT COMES
FULLY WITH THE ENABLING ATTITUDE THAT MAKES ONE ONE WITH THE WHOLE...to consider the needs of others before one's own...and this
can give the discernment when rebuking is right to do and when forgiving is right to do and when taking anothers burden ..suffering for anothers sake
..how to do that correctly...it is our human fallen nature ..our spiritual rebellion as explained for the discerning in paul's romans..that makes it seem
so hard to discern .... because one's past of having sought self glory and not given all glory to the one true and eternal creator...

camper

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Re: Forgiveness
« Reply #48 on: May 21, 2007, 09:11:46 AM »
A NOT SO FINE TOOTH COMB ---- GOING OVER SOME OF POSTS IN THIS THREAD...

FROM POST BY MUD...
Quote
« Reply #25 on: May 18, 2007, 01:09:48 PM .... I think the argument is made that Christ is referring to Christians when he uses the terms "brother" and "when they repent" because of the whole counsel of the bible. We are told later by Paul that Christians are to hold accountable other Christians but that we are not to judge the world. Elsewhere Christ tells us to bless, not curse, those who spitefully use us. We are told to turn the other cheek to our enemies, not rebuke them. If they thirst we are to give them a drink of water.
It seems clear to me that Christians have an obligation to forgive unconditionally, as Portia put it, those who they do not know to be Christians. Likewise they have an obligation to correct and exhort to righteousness those Christians who have sinned against them.
As His followers Christians are to do their best not to bring shame or disrepute to Christ. A non Christian's sin brings no disrepute to Christ, but a Christian's does. That is why we are to forgive the former and correct the latter.

YES IN THAT PASSAGE THE CONTEXT THE REFERENCE IS AS  TO FELLOW CHRISTIANS....BUT SOME ASPECTS I THINK CAN BE STRETCHED TO A WIDER CONTEST AS I SUGGESTED THAT WHEN A NON CHRISTIAN COMMITS A CERTAIN KIND OF SIN THAT THE APPROBRIATE ACTION CAN BE REBUKE.... JESUS CERTAINLY POINTED OUT OTHERS HYPOCRISY IN WHAT I THINK WAS A KIND OF REBUKE....AND PERHAPS A LARGER PART OF WHY CRUCIFICTION OF JESUS WAS SOUGHT BY LEADERS AND ELDERS OF THE JEWS..... PERHAPS A FURTHER STUDY OF THE GREEK WORD TRANSLATED AS REBUKE  IN LUKE MIGHT HELP AT SOME...THE POINT...  there seems to be maybe an assumption made that non christians are not aware of their choice of evil and tnus should be automatically forgiven.... which i am not so sure is correct....surely tho as jesus said tis true if the case truely be..forgive them for they know not what they do.... but that to me is not the nature a type of sin jesus speaks of in luke 12... where that kind of sin has the consequences of being caste among unbelievers and the body being torn asunder...and i do not think believers there refers just to christians rather non believers in the golden rule....that allows self justification for knowing one is doing evil to another and thinks one can get away with it successfully for self aggrandizement ....something narcissists and pyschopaths seem to be into....but on different levels...

Michael, on another post, you mentioned reincarnation.  How does that fit into Chrisitanity?  Someone else mentioned they don't believe in Heaven.  How can you believe in Jesus and God and not believe in heaven?  I want to understand.

mudpuppy

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Re: Forgiveness
« Reply #49 on: May 21, 2007, 10:53:18 AM »
Hops,

Quote
So whether or not I believe Christ is my salvation (I don't find the formula constructive)......


Whether one finds the formula constructive seems a little beside the point. The question is whether it is true. But I suspect you were, as usual, being considerate of others feelings by using a euphamism for "I don't believe He was anything more than a man".

Quote
I believe I am, or more likely many others are, "as good as" fine Christians, whether or not they accept the belief statements

There are many non Christians who are far more "good" than most Christians. Unfortunately or perhaps fortunately depending on your perspective, it is not a question of our goodness, for as Christ said there is none who is truly good but God. Once we begin to measure our goodness against others we are reduced to the state of the Pharisee praying to God by thanking Him he is not like other men, because he is more virtuous. We are instead implored by Christ to be like the tax collector, who prayed for God to have mercy on him, a miserable sinner. Pride or humility are always in some way our two fundamental choices, aren't they?

Portia,

Quote
Loving my enemy.......does that have to be active (so you get kicked in the head), or can it be passive?


Well, it can be both of course. But if it is only passive it might be a bit of a self-serving kind of love which seems to be one of those oxymorons people are always mentioning. Is loving your enemy without any risk really love? It's not a call to expose yourself to pointless abuse of course, but sometimes we are called to get kicked in the head for the good of others.

Quote
The thing is....I don't do any of this thinking because of an external pull, i do it well, because I want to.


You seem to be presupposing that we can know, without doubt, what it is that motivates us. If there are external forces that can exert internal pulls on us how do we know what is of us and what is not? Our external senses are notoriously fallible. Why should we assume our internal ones are any better?

mud

Portia

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Re: Forgiveness
« Reply #50 on: May 21, 2007, 11:09:22 AM »
Mud..........exactly, both points. Thanks so much for that.

'I' am feeling like i often feel which is a sort of dancing shiny question mark. It feels okay. I can live with it :D

Hopalong

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Re: Forgiveness
« Reply #51 on: May 21, 2007, 12:10:29 PM »
Hi Mud,
You're right, that sounded proud.

I don't care what the correct definition of Jesus is. Through my childhood faith in him I learned about love. He was a very direct experience for me, a wonderful presence. Still can be, at times.

The reason I can't say, He is the Son of God and this is the truth and my salvation, is that it leaves other people out.

I am a universalist who believes that all human beings are saved, and that no loving god would "not-save" anyone. Anyone at all. To me, love is either loving in all possible ways, or it's not. If God is love and only love and not any other thing at all, including any text, then I believe in God.

I don't say it's not true that Jesus is the son of God, I say I don't know. If he was I think he had a lot of siblings, and still does...

You're likely one of 'em, Mud.

Hops
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WRITE

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Re: Forgiveness
« Reply #52 on: May 21, 2007, 04:58:21 PM »
no loving god would "not-save" anyone. Anyone at all. To me, love is either loving in all possible ways, or it's not. If God is love and only love and not any other thing at all, including any text, then I believe in God.

I'm with Hops on the Universalism. Also Unitarian- the Trinity doesn't make much sense to me except in a gnostic context.

Our external senses are notoriously fallible. Why should we assume our internal ones are any better?

yes Mud, we are human. However there is a place inside us where G_d is, I feel that, in fact I call it my G_d place because when I am in tune with it I make good decisions and act with love & compassion.

But ego is impossible to completely put to one side, even people who train in Buddhism for years find it hard!

Mine gets pricked here and there no matter how hard I try.

Although I would love to trust everyone

the first thing I found was how to trust myself CB.
I used to trust everyone blindly, then I trusted no one for a long time
Now it's more of a balance but also it doesn't matter as much, people's bad behaviour belongs to them now I don't see it as me being unloveable.

I've been here years and I hardly use the PMs, they are good for a personal message or conversation of course, but I can be quite a burden to otehrs if I get manic, I am very aware of that these days and don't use the phone or emails as much too. I have ten times the energy of everyone else and it can overwhelm people.

there's nothing I want or need from the one I thought i wanted to forgive.

that sounds like a good healing.

*

One of the things I feel we have to watch as Christians is 'love-bombing' people: showering them with affection to get them to do/ believe what we want. That's not healthy.

mudpuppy

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Re: Forgiveness
« Reply #53 on: May 21, 2007, 08:18:12 PM »
Hops,

I didn't mean to say your statement in particular sounded prideful, only that generally, when placing ourselves on the 'goodness' scale, it is easy to find any number of examples that don't take much effort to exceed.

write,

Quote
the Trinity doesn't make much sense to me

As I've gotten older I've noticed some of the things that used to make the least sense to me have turned out to be the most profoundly true.

mud

Hopalong

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Re: Forgiveness
« Reply #54 on: May 21, 2007, 09:36:52 PM »
Gotcha, Mud...no offense (ever  :)) taken.

I figure you get forgiveness practice putting up with this heathen UU!

Hops
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."

WRITE

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Re: Forgiveness
« Reply #55 on: May 22, 2007, 06:09:39 PM »
forgiveness practice putting up with anyone really!

I am not being entirely forgiving with my upstairs neighbours though right now.

Last night at 1 am they started hammering on the floor, I have spoken to them before, they really are noisy at the best of times but I ignore it in the day and evening, however I really need my sleep.

I have spoken to them twice before , she says it's her kids ( age 1 and 5 ), he was apologetic, they quieten down for a few weeks then start up again.

I went up at 1.30 when it didn't stop, she said I have to expect noise from small children in apartments! I said at 1.30 am? I was cross so I didn't say much but today I wrote her a note telling her the next time I will be speaking to the management and asking for my lease to be terminated. I have actually spoken to them before and they were talking about evicting her which I didn't want to precipitate, so I asked them to let me deal with it for a while, however last night she was unapologetic, rude and it was clear she thinks I am a pushover who won't do anything about it....

Grrrrrrr....... :x

MICHAEL

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Re: Forgiveness
« Reply #56 on: May 23, 2007, 01:48:20 AM »
A NOT SO FINE TOOTH COMB ---- GOING OVER SOME OF POSTS IN THIS THREAD...

FROM POST BY MUD...
Quote
« Reply #25 on: May 18, 2007, 01:09:48 PM .... I think the argument is made that Christ is referring to Christians when he uses the terms "brother" and "when they repent" because of the whole counsel of the bible. We are told later by Paul that Christians are to hold accountable other Christians but that we are not to judge the world. Elsewhere Christ tells us to bless, not curse, those who spitefully use us. We are told to turn the other cheek to our enemies, not rebuke them. If they thirst we are to give them a drink of water.
It seems clear to me that Christians have an obligation to forgive unconditionally, as Portia put it, those who they do not know to be Christians. Likewise they have an obligation to correct and exhort to righteousness those Christians who have sinned against them.
As His followers Christians are to do their best not to bring shame or disrepute to Christ. A non Christian's sin brings no disrepute to Christ, but a Christian's does. That is why we are to forgive the former and correct the latter.

YES IN THAT PASSAGE THE CONTEXT THE REFERENCE IS AS  TO FELLOW CHRISTIANS....BUT SOME ASPECTS I THINK CAN BE STRETCHED TO A WIDER CONTEST AS I SUGGESTED THAT WHEN A NON CHRISTIAN COMMITS A CERTAIN KIND OF SIN THAT THE APPROBRIATE ACTION CAN BE REBUKE.... JESUS CERTAINLY POINTED OUT OTHERS HYPOCRISY IN WHAT I THINK WAS A KIND OF REBUKE....AND PERHAPS A LARGER PART OF WHY CRUCIFICTION OF JESUS WAS SOUGHT BY LEADERS AND ELDERS OF THE JEWS..... PERHAPS A FURTHER STUDY OF THE GREEK WORD TRANSLATED AS REBUKE  IN LUKE MIGHT HELP AT SOME...THE POINT...  there seems to be maybe an assumption made that non christians are not aware of their choice of evil and tnus should be automatically forgiven.... which i am not so sure is correct....surely tho as jesus said tis true if the case truely be..forgive them for they know not what they do.... but that to me is not the nature a type of sin jesus speaks of in luke 12... where that kind of sin has the consequences of being caste among unbelievers and the body being torn asunder...and i do not think believers there refers just to christians rather non believers in the golden rule....that allows self justification for knowing one is doing evil to another and thinks one can get away with it successfully for self aggrandizement ....something narcissists and pyschopaths seem to be into....but on different levels...

Michael, on another post, you mentioned reincarnation.  How does that fit into Chrisitanity?  Someone else mentioned they don't believe in Heaven.  How can you believe in Jesus and God and not believe in heaven?  I want to understand.

HI CAMPER,
i am not sure where above u ask about reincarnation and heaven if you are wondering if along with the believe in reincarnation
that that does away with a believe in heaven...
for me it does not but what i see biblically is that besides the kingdom of heaven there is a kingdom of god...
and a hell.... but as to hell i do not think the greek in the new testament supports that hell is a place of eternal damnation
but still it still can be hell and not the best place between incarnations...but it can serve to get the souls attention
about the consequences of their sin and the type of sin that gets damnation is to know evil and do evil...
[or as luke 12 puts it ..to be caste among the unbelievers ....]....
in luke 12 there are 3 modes of sin and of course being without sin...which gets one into the kingdom of god...
the kingdom of heaven is the messianic kingdom in between lifetimes ....

in terms of there being no eternal punishment... see tentmaker.org  ...
in terms of reincarnation what might serve well is the edgar cayce material...
tho the material is not flawless...to me it is one of the best sources of modern times on many spiritual matters..

biblically of note might be the old testament book of zecheriah and pay close attention to the hight priest then a joshua...
not the joshua who brought the them into the promised land..
yet again the same joshua in terms of the later high priest joshua of the time of the rebuildingof the temple in zechariah
is a reincarnation of the joshua who brought god's chosen people into the promised land...

pays special attent to i think chapters 2 or 3 on joshua
and chapter 5 or 6 on joshua in zechariah...
where to me a deeper reading informs one that said joshua
would come for his last incarnation born of woman as the messiah....aka revelation 1st chapter  FIRST BEGOTTEN OF THE DEAD

also in hebrews where some say the bible teaches no reincarnaton
such as where it says...it is appointed unto man once to die and then comes judgment...
that context i think is quite clearly not talking about physical death except in the sense of dying to the flesh and sin
by being convicted of the old sin nature of the adamic line and accepting the holy spirit...

also in hebrew where it says that jesus came only once...
the greek word also has the meaning not of just one time
but one final and last time....

also in matthew 11 or 12 where jesus says to his disciples if they are willing to accept it
that john the baptist was elijah...
i take as reincarnation...

SO REINCARNATION IS HOW I SEE ENVIRONMENT AND HERIDTARY ELEMENT DOVETAILING TOGETHER...

THERE REMAINS THE QUESTION OF IF REINCARNATION IS TRUE
WHY DOES THE BIBLE NOT MAKE IT CLEARER....
UNFORTUNATELY PRESENTLY I AM NOT AT LIBERTY TO DIVULGE THE SPECIFICS...
JUST KIDDING.... MAYBE LATER SOME THOUGHTS ON THAT :)

Overcomer

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Re: Forgiveness
« Reply #57 on: May 23, 2007, 08:23:47 AM »
Now that is a viewpoint that I have never heard...
Kelly

"The Best Way Out is Through........and try laughing at yourself"

michael

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Re: Forgiveness
« Reply #58 on: May 23, 2007, 09:51:44 AM »
Overcomer
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  Re: Forgiveness
« Reply #63 on: Today at 08:23:47 AM »   

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Now that is a viewpoint that I have never heard...
 
  Logged 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Kelly

"The Best Way Out is Through........"

SOME THOUGHTS ON THAT LAST THOUGHT ABOVE

TAINT NECESSARILY SO WHEN IT IS OUT OF THE FRYING PAN INTO THE FIRE.....
MEANING WHAT IS OFFERED AS A WAY OUT
MIGHT HAVE HIDDEN AGENDAS THAT FURTHER WEAKEN THE SOUL....
EVEN THO ONE SUPPOSES THAT ONE'S INTENTIONS ARE GOOD...
EVEN THEN IT CAN HIDE DANGEROUS ASPECTS OF A MISGUIDED EGO
WHERE ONE IS MORE DEEPLY TRAPPED THAN BEFORE PERHAPS


camper

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Re: Forgiveness
« Reply #59 on: May 23, 2007, 10:15:21 AM »
Michael, that is an interesting viewpoint.  I have heard about the speculation that John and Elijah are one in the same but scholars are still speculating on that one.  Not sure I would call it "reincarnation". 

As for Heaven, have you read the book of Revelation?  If you have, is the bible the inspired Word of God for you?  In Rev., John is on the island of Patmos, he receives a revelation from Jesus Christ.  Jesus asks John to write down everthing he sees.  In Chapter 4, it starts out...Then as I looked, I saw a door standing oen in HEAVEN.   Then in Chapter 5 John sees a scroll in the right hand of the one who was sitting on the throne.  Then we jump to Chapter 7 where the JW's understand that only 144,000 will get into heaven.  This chapter is when the 6th seal was opened.  this is where the seal of God gets placed on the foreheads of the 144,00.  Verse 9-17 says, After this I saw a vast crowd, to great to count, from every nation and tribe and people and ganguage, standing in fromt of the throne and before the Lamb.  Then v. 13, Then one of the 24 elders asked me, "who are these who are clothed in white?  Where did they come from?"  And I said to him, "Sir, you are the one who knows.  Then he said to me, These are the ones who died in the great tribulation. They have washed their robes in the blood of the Lamb and made them white. 

That is why they stand in front of God's Throne
and serve him day and night in his Temple and he who sits on the throne
will give them shelter, they will never again be hungry or thirsty;
they will never be scorched by the heat of the sun.
for the Lamb on the throne will be their Shepherd.
He will lead them to springs of life-giving water.
And God will wipe every tear from their eyes."


Now in Chapter 8, the seventh seal is broken.  I am going to jump past where God's people ascended up to God to the part that would describe hell during the end times.  Verse 7, The first angel blew his trumpet, and heail and fire mixed with blood were thrown down on the earth.  One-third of the earth was set on fire....The second angel blew his trumpet and a great mountain of fire was thrown into the sea...Then the third angel blew his trumpet and a great star fell from the sky, burning like a torch....the name of the start was Bitterness.  Then the fourth angel blew his trumpet, and one-third of the sun was struck, and one-third of the moon, and one-third of the stars, and they became dark....   then Ch. 12 V. 12 says Therefore, rewjoice, O heavens!  And you who live in the heavens, rejoice!  But terror will come on the earth and the sea, for the devil has come down to you in great anger, knowing that he has little time.  chapter 16  lists God's wrath.Those that worshiped idols  got horrible sores.  Those that didn't repent were burned by a blast of heat, those that followed the devil (the kingdom of the throne of the best) were plunged into darkness. 

I could go on and on but in the end...Chapter 20, v 15, And anyone whose name was not found recorded in the Book of Life was thrown into the lake of fire.  This is the second death.  You die in this world and are put in a grave.  the grave then gives up its dead (second death).  Verse 14.  How does reincarnation fit into this?  We only die once until God sends us to heaven or hell.  Ch. 21, v 8 says, But coward, unbelievers, the corrupt, murderers, the immoral, those who practice witchcraft, idol worshipers, and all liars-their fate is in the fiery lake of burning sulfur.  this is the second death

There is a hell!  I would want to be sure that my name was in the Book of Life!  I for one am not going to take a chance by listening to someone tell me there is no hell. 

Hope that helps you understand where I am coming from.  Christianity is pure and simple....follow the bible.  You can only follow the bible after you have salvation and receive the Holy Spirit.  It is only with the Holy Spirit that you can understand the bible.  You need the Holy Spirit!