Issues of shadow side etc.......

[axa]

A number of issues have come up for me in therapy and I would appreciate comments

 I have always seen myself, unconsciously until recently, as the victim.  I discussed this with my therapist and we ended up talking about the dynamic of sadist/machosist entanglements.  She said that once one steps into this dynamic "I" feelings are not there, we just step into the ROLE.  Somehow this makes some sense.  The adult in me would occasionally step aside and question how I felt, and of course the answer was I do not want this type of relationship but I would slip back into the Mach. position and loose awareness and get all caught up in being the victim.  Of course in this place I had feelings, of worthlessness, humiliation etc but the adult was not functioning.  Dont know if I am making myself clear.  It was as if I surrendered to the role rather than being engaged in living.

Another issue which came up was when T asked me if I liked him.  The answer is No and I knew this for a long long time.  He was the type of person I would normally avoid, rude, insensitive, arrogant, ignorant of any social skills, bullying etc.  I have to say I felt "love" which of course I now question, for him but I was aware that I did not like him.  And I stayed with someone I felt ashamed to be with in company.  I was also ashamed and frustrated when he would sneer at what he called my "feminist, social worker, lesbian friends" btw none of my friends are lesbians or social workers, but it was the stereotyping of everyone which really got to me.  RED FLAG.  I just wanted to acknowledge this and maybe raise a flag for people who are still with Ns.  Do you LIKE this person?

I am doing ok most of the time but there are times when I feel angry with XN for wasting my time, abuse etc..  I was having a rant about him with T and it came down to how cold, vicious and disrespectful he is to others.  Ok.  So we talked about the part of me that is cold, vicious and disrespectful......... hard stuff, that shadow side again.  It seems to me that while he is all of these things, as long as I am tied to this part of him and my anger towards him, I am not ackknowledging those parts of myself.  I believe I do possess them, I guess I come for the school of thought that we are all capable of being anything, but mostly I am aware enough to not act on them.  But there was a warning here for me.  I need to claim these parts of me, own them, and this is part of the healing and forgiveness which will, I believe, follow.  I think as long as we polarise ourselves and them we become stuck.  I am beginning to feel that he just did not matter that much, I had the script written and needed someone to play our the other polarity with me.  In defense of myself I have to say that I was not aware.

Again appreicate any comments.


axa

[michael]

A number of issues have come up for me in therapy and I would appreciate comments

 I have always seen myself, unconsciously until recently, as the victim.  I discussed this with my therapist and we ended up talking about the dynamic of sadist/machosist entanglements.  She said that once one steps into this dynamic "I" feelings are not there, we just step into the ROLE.  Somehow this makes some sense.  The adult in me would occasionally step aside and question how I felt, and of course the answer was I do not want this type of relationship but I would slip back into the Mach. position and loose awareness and get all caught up in being the victim.  Of course in this place I had feelings, of worthlessness, humiliation etc but the adult was not functioning.  Dont know if I am making myself clear.  It was as if I surrendered to the role rather than being engaged in living.

Another issue which came up was when T asked me if I liked him.  The answer is No and I knew this for a long long time.  He was the type of person I would normally avoid, rude, insensitive, arrogant, ignorant of any social skills, bullying etc.  I have to say I felt "love" which of course I now question, for him but I was aware that I did not like him.  And I stayed with someone I felt ashamed to be with in company.  I was also ashamed and frustrated when he would sneer at what he called my "feminist, social worker, lesbian friends" btw none of my friends are lesbians or social workers, but it was the stereotyping of everyone which really got to me.  RED FLAG.  I just wanted to acknowledge this and maybe raise a flag for people who are still with Ns.  Do you LIKE this person?

I am doing ok most of the time but there are times when I feel angry with XN for wasting my time, abuse etc..  I was having a rant about him with T and it came down to how cold, vicious and disrespectful he is to others.  Ok.  So we talked about the part of me that is cold, vicious and disrespectful......... hard stuff, that shadow side again.  It seems to me that while he is all of these things, as long as I am tied to this part of him and my anger towards him, I am not ackknowledging those parts of myself.  I believe I do possess them, I guess I come for the school of thought that we are all capable of being anything, but mostly I am aware enough to not act on them.  But there was a warning here for me.  I need to claim these parts of me, own them, and this is part of the healing and forgiveness which will, I believe, follow.  I think as long as we polarise ourselves and them we become stuck.  I am beginning to feel that he just did not matter that much, I had the script written and needed someone to play our the other polarity with me.  In defense of myself I have to say that I was not aware.

Again appreicate any comments.


axa

hi axa,
i would probably not quite paint the shadow side as it seems your therapist does..
the dynamics of such a relationship i think would be better understood in the way i think karen horney does..

for me it is more where someone has vampires instinct for anothers goodness and immaturity and self doubt...
the narcissist by its way of blocking and denying many aspects of their own self doubt
perhaps to some degree feels it has the answer to others self doubt
but if the other begins to question hidden aspects of the wonder of the narcissists answer..
it becomes to the narcisisist a matter of destroy the others sense of self worth or lose their own sense of self worth...

[debkor]

Axa,

I felt just like you.  I did not like my exH for a long time either before I left.  I remember saying to him I do not like you.  I would not choose you as a friend.  And I wouldn't or would not have stayed friends with someone like him.  So why the hell did I stay married for as long as I did? Was there some Unconcious * marriage contract* thing deep in my mind somewhere?  In sickness and in health? 
Interesting.  Something to think about?

Love
Deb

[Portia]

Axa

well I'm not sure 'shadow side' helps any, for me. It's like I'm a Jeckyl & Hyde personality? or a split/multiple personality? Just my take on it. I see all of me - the angry dictator, the fighting toddler, the parent, the shocked child, the knowing adult - it's all parts of me and saying there is one shadow side - too limiting, when we're a whole bundle of all sorts of things. None of them 'bad', none of them 'good'.

But yes, in a relationship (boss/partner/whatever) me, as a victim/masochist, i can behave (have behaved) in such a  way with an N-inclined person so that they will start to reciprocate in my child/parent scenario. I make them do it, in a sense, get them to play the part that is necessary to try and fix that first relationship. It hurts to know that. I think once I know it, I'm outta it. Knowing breaks the spell of role-playing I think. It becomes absurd?

So we talked about the part of me that is cold, vicious and disrespectful

Mmm i hesitate over the part of me because if you do it, then yes, it is part of you, at that moment. I think of it more as cyphering (?) the internal parent. Sometimes I hear myself speaking in my mother's voice and it shocks me because although I've taken that in, is it really me? I question that. Or maybe it was me and I'm glad to be shocked by it so I can shake hands with it and boot it out... almost like a virus, a computer virus that's been lying dormant and whoosh, it takes us over. Do I sound like I'm denying stuff I wonder...

bfn. P

[Overcomer]

Hmmm-Makes me think of the shifting of control in my marriage.  Once victimized starting on our honeymoon, I took the upper hand when I no longer cared if he stayed of left.  Do not know but I can see me taking movie roll of the controller instead of being controlled.  Maybe the pendulum will swing back into the middle and I will not del the need to be so intense.

[Hopalong]

Hi Axa,
I think you're doing brilliant work.
You are liberating your humanity. Bravo bravo.

I think it's such a wonderful thing that you pointed out how often an N is not likeable, yet we'll hang ourselves on a pike and sacrifice decades of our lives because we "love" them.

Well maybe we do! But maybe we should do that from a distance of no less than 100 miles and with no contact!

We can love them all we want! Whoop de doodle doo we're so LOVING! (Punch ticket, get to heaven.)

But damned if I don't think there is a compulsive masochism that is being acted out with these obsessions. And that masoschism is a spit in the face of the miracle of being alive.

Thank you for stirring me up to think about the core dislike-but-choose-to-hand-over-our-happiness-anyway bit.

Wowsa.

Plus, the guts and honesty and responsibility and sanity of this is just fantastic:

I am beginning to feel that he just did not matter that much, I had the script written and needed someone to play our the other polarity with me.

You are SO on your way to well. I am rejoicing for you.

love
Hops

[dandylife]

Axa,
Hi and thanks for this most thought - provoking post. I also experienced this phenomena in a relationship.

I just wanted to say a couple of things - perhaps I'm not clear on them? Your therapist said that "once one steps into this dynamic "I" feelings are not there, we just step into the ROLE."  I sort of understand this, having read the famous "Games People Play", so I get what stepping into a role means. Can you tell me what your T. meant by "I feelings are not there"? Whatever does this mean? That you feel paralyzed, unable to speak or move or protect yourself? Or are you being self-protective (so your inner self thinks) by being in the role? Did your T. explain this line of thinking?

About the "not liking them". Oh man a big amen there. I was just telling a girlfriend the other day - if I had a speed dating session and my (x)N showed up, I would never in a million years be 1) attracted to him or 2) like him. (long story on how/why we stayed together 17 years....yes....probably has to do with role-playing!) Anyway yes, yes, I feel this, too, and the confusion over why we put ourselves out on a limb for them...sometimes daily!

About the shadow side. I think this is a very important concept that deserves a thorough round of therapy for anyone involved with role-playing in an abusive situation.

Thanks so much, Axa for being generous and sharing this.

Dandylife

[Confounded]

We can love them all we want! Whoop de doodle doo we're so LOVING! (Punch ticket, get to heaven.)

But damned if I don't think there is a compulsive masochism that is being acted out with these obsessions. And that masochism is a spit in the face of the miracle of being alive.

Thank you for stirring me up to think about the core dislike-but-choose-to-hand-over-our-happiness-anyway bit.

Grandmother used to say, "If you get rid of one man, and get another man, you just trade one set of problems for another set of problems."

We all know the saying, "Better the devil you know, than the one you don't know."

Having divorced a pathological liar/cheater with sociopathic tendencies (official diagnosis) (a.k.a., a lawyer), and now having found that my H has N tendencies, which seem to affect him at times, and seem to be something that he is aware of at other times (and can even make jokes about), I wonder if many of us stay because we think that everybody's weird as can be, and if we don't know how weird somebody is it's just because we don't know them very well yet.  Even when my H is acting like an angry nut (limited now, nothing physical or he is soooo screwed), I think that if I got rid of him an got another man, I'd just have a third set of problems to deal with.  This second H is much better than the first (once I found out from a blackmailer about XH, confirmed it with polygraphs - his idea - what an idiot - and determined with pro help that he could no change, I took all the marbles and left).  So now I hang in there.  But sometimes I really don't like H.  Sometimes I just wish he would go away.  Forever.  But then I would get a third H, and another set of problems.  Oh great.  Better the devil I know.  I'm getting better at managing him.

[axa]

Michael,

My understanding of my shadow side is the part of me I deny has the capacity to exist. e.g. I could have cheated/lied/abused Xn.  I know I am capable of it but I choose not to do so.  I did have opportunities to be unfaithful but what was the point.  One man was enough for me, did not need to play out any games with some other guy.  I think if I deny my capabilitiy of doing "bad" then I am not being real.  While XN did all these things to me, I need to own my capability of doing them also...... I just choose not too.  Maybe something to do with maturity and respect... I hope!  If I make him out to be the all bad and me the all good then I am denying my own reality.  To be honest I cannot see any good in him in that his motivation was so self serving and vicious it is hard for me to see past that but I am NOT the all good and that is part of my truth.

axa

[axa]

DEb,

It really is weird isn't it.  At the end of the time with XN he had the nerve to say I know we will always be friends.  I told him the last person in the world I wanted to be friends with was him.........  I think we get so sucked into the drama that it feels like being trapped in some sort of web that it is so difficult to get out of.
Axa,

CB

whether we are all, to some degree, N's.


As I wrote to Michael I believe we all have the ability to act like Ns it is the difference IMO between the capability and the acting on the behaviour that makes one different.

Also, the realization that there was  "jockeying for position" early in my marriage.  I often wondered if we were deciding who would be the N and would be the enabler.  I am very aware that NH expressed my own anger for me when he raged.  I was angry at the world, I was angry at myself.  But nice girls don't get angry.

I think in most relationships there are positions that one takes up of being the dominant one....... this I think can fluctuate in relation to the events which are taking place at the time.  I don't see this as unusual or necessarily bad.  I can relate to the anger thing though.  I never showed any anger until I was well and truely sucked in to the relationship, mostly towards the end.  I was so aware of my raging Nmother and how angry she was and went to the opposite pole, but of course this was not real and so when I was pushed the anger emerged.  I have to say I am grateful to that anger because that was what got me out of the mess.

He was a redneck, bigot, uncouth guy for all his money.  His bigoted ways constantly rubbed me the wrong way.  I constantly fought against him.  Did he just provide a platform for me to express the part of me that I wanted to be? 

Oh CB what were you doing with MY GUY!!!  Xn was in the medical profession, highly qualified but so bloody rude he was unreal.  Also his basic manners were terrible.  Never said please/thank you...  to anyone as far as I could see.  Jumped queues, pushed people out of his way, barged into conversations, insulted people.  He was the type of person I would normally run a mile from.  As for expressing myself.  Well I figured out that my expressing myself was a threat to him because it meant that I showed him I was seperate from him and THAT WAS NOT ALLOWED.

Portia
. I see all of me - the angry dictator, the fighting toddler, the parent, the shocked child, the knowing adult - it's all parts of me and saying there is one shadow side - too limiting, when we're a whole bundle of all sorts of things. None of them 'bad', none of them 'good'.


I see all of these people/sides of me also.  I think the shadow part is that which we deny the existence of because we see it as BAD.  Whereas now I see it as I am all things........... what is perceived as "good and bad"  I feel like I am not explaining myself very well.



Mmm i hesitate over the part of me because if you do it, then yes, it is part of you, at that moment. I think of it more as cyphering (?) the internal parent. Sometimes I hear myself speaking in my mother's voice and it shocks me because although I've taken that in, is it really me? I question that. Or maybe it was me and I'm glad to be shocked by it so I can shake hands with it and boot it out... almost like a virus, a computer virus that's been lying dormant and whoosh, it takes us over. Do I sound like I'm denying stuff I wonder...

bfn. P

I think that I have internalised part of my mother which is raging and hateful.  I think my acceptance of this is what will help in my healing.  I believe the more we acknowledge all of ourselves the less power the distructive "parts" have.  I see that I projected my raging hateful part onto XN......... not that he needed it because he has plenty of it himself, but I was dissassociating myself from my own parts so I could not own them.  This in turn, I think, is what kept me hooked in.  As long as I could dump the blame on him I was tied to him.  Now that I am owning my own "parts" I feel distance from him, like I don't need the energy to go out to him anymore.........this sounds so all over the place, I do hope I am making some sense.  Wish I could make a drawing of it!!!m


 I took the upper hand when I no longer cared if he stayed of left.  Do not know but I can see me taking movie roll of the controller instead of being controlled.  Maybe the pendulum will swing back into the middle and I will not del the need to be so intense.

I think that this is about taking back your own power OC.  When one is not attached emotionally one can revert back to ones adult self, methinks.  I think the more I break the emotional attachment with XN the less I care and maybe with that comes my forgiveness of myself........... and he is off on his merry junket with new supply.



  What I am saying that relates to your post was I knew and accepted ALL sides of the human spectrum. In other words, I did not see myself 'Stuck" in any role. I was and could be all different sides, depending on my choices. I still had the capacity to accept all the parts of me and to love myself with them all.

Ami thank you for this.  I know when I was with XN I was STUCK in the victim role...... you put it much clearer than I, really struggling with getting this across.


  As I grew up, My N mother sucked out my core and I became rigid in a "victim " role. However, I could play the perpetrator at times .also.How she "poisoned " my mind, though and THEREFORE got me STUCK in a role was that she chastised me for every aspect of me that was not"perfect' If I did well in school. It was not good enough because a REALLY smart person should do well WITHOUT studying .Another example was how you looked. You had to be beautiful WITHOUT doing anything like spending time on clothes ETC. If you did anything, then you failed.You had to be perfect WITHOUT trying.

Oh Ami,  I never got this before.  This is how it was I should not have to do anything to be perfect, I should have BEEN perfect.  This helps with pieces of my puzzle.  I gave up on everything, study, looking good etc because I just KNEW I never would be good enough so I stopped trying.  I had that sense of being defeated again with XN.  There was no point.  I gave up, put on weight, did little or nothing, and of course he hated me more and more for this so I ended up the victim AGAINl



   After my N mother got done with me, I had to be 'perfect" or i was worthless and deserved hate and humiliation.Then, she was inside me and I did to me what she did. That is where I am now. It STINKS and I want to heal from it.
  I see your question as expressing "being stuck" in a rigid role because you have "thrown away" the parts of you which were unacceptable. to you or to the N's in your life.
   This is how I see it now. It is SUCH an important topic to healing. I am so glad that you brought it up   . By the way, was I on the topic?            

So good to read this Ami.  I think I took on the stance that I was worthless.  I posted this before but I want to say it again.     When XN was emotionally abusing me I had a thought that he thinks I deserve this and no better and I am here listening to it so I think I deserve it and no better.  This was a big lightbulb moment for me.  I too want to heal this because I am so BORED with the  pain and drama.  I do think I became paralized in the role of the victim as if I could not escape from it.  Thank God for the  anger I felt which  pushed me out of the horrible place.         

                                                         



You are liberating your humanity. Bravo bravo.

Thanks Hops, hard work, hard work.


I think it's such a wonderful thing that you pointed out how often an N is not likeable, yet we'll hang ourselves on a pike and sacrifice decades of our lives because we "love" them.

Well maybe we do! But maybe we should do that from a distance of no less than 100 miles and with no contact!

We can love them all we want! Whoop de doodle doo we're so LOVING! (Punch ticket, get to heaven.)

He He,,,,,,,,,,, got over the lovin over here thankfully!

But damned if I don't think there is a compulsive masochism that is being acted out with these obsessions. And that masoschism is a spit in the face of the miracle of being alive.

Yes, yes, yes.  I felt like the "living dead" and that is the best way I could describe it, it is as if the life was sucked out of me and I was rendered helpless.

[axa]

Dandy,

My sense is that the Adult "I" stops functioning.  It is as if I am being controlled by the small child who is willing to do anything in the hope of getting the "love/approval of the orignial parent.  I was aware of feeling the helplessness of that small child in the relationship.  When I would spend time away from XN I would often think about how I would feel if someone else was telling me "my story" of their relationship........ my advice would be GET OUT and I would be full of clarity when I would meet him again.  I had "I" adult feelings but like clockwork I would get sucked into the victim role and the sense of impotence.

About the "not liking them". Oh man a big amen there. I was just telling a girlfriend the other day - if I had a speed dating session and my (x)N showed up, I would never in a million years be 1) attracted to him or 2) like him. (long story on how/why we stayed together 17 years....yes....probably has to do with role-playing!) Anyway yes, yes, I feel this, too, and the confusion over why we put ourselves out on a limb for them...sometimes daily!

Me thinks it is because that small scared kid is running the show, does that make sense.  For me the only kind of relationship, except that with my kids, has been extremely dysfunctional.  Initially it is as if I have found this beautiful symbotic place where everything will be healed (honeymoon period) but slowly the roles become detemined and I become desperate, clinging, hopeless victim.

axa

[axa]

That's exactly why I stayed for so many years.  I figured that everyone has some kind of issues, including me.  I have never really bought the idea of a soulmate--although I have a couple of friends or family members who seem to have found theirs!--so I figured that there was no point in ditching my marriage to search for one.

CB.  I think this is so important.  I know I stayed at some level because I think, well no one is perfect...... true but not everyone is abusive and I was selling myself so cheap.  I was settling for him because in spite of all his weirdness I thought he had two traits I really valued: honesty, fidelity.......... well boy was I wrong.  I think there is something really significant here about settling for so little.  Sure I gave up on the idea of a soulmate a long time ago also but I now know I deserve better than abuse.  There is something here about being grateful for the bloody crumbs off the table.......... not anymore I want the cake, and I'll bake it myself it needs be!

For me, the deciding moment was outright threats of abuse.  He had been very unpleasant to live with and no one that I would choose to marry if I had it to do over again.  But when it became overt, I was through.  Of course, it was then that I had the freedom to look at how very bad the situation had been all along.  And it wasnt nearly so benign as I had thought.


I made so many excuses.  I even rationalised his planting hash in my bag going through customs.  Yes I got angry but if someone did that to my kid/friend/sister I would freak........... why, maybe I feel they are more important than me.  I am so sorry I did not call the cops or just walk at that stage.  I think he knew then that he could do anything and the worst thing I would do is have a bit of a rant.


Think your Grandma was right..........I do believe I seek them out unconsciouly...... hope I am in the process of kicking this nasty habit.  I never want to "manage" anyone again, except mysel.f

Do I get a prize for the longest reply to a post.......... divided it up into sections because I was afraid I would loose it.  Thank you all so much for your enlightening responses.

hugs,

axa

[towrite]

Axa - I am pretty depleted myseld right now, but I wanted to comment on what your original post was 'cuz I understand that shadow side. I got accused this weekend of being everyone's victim and I have been feeling so bad about myself ever since that I have resolved to pull apart every sh***y thing that's happened in the last twelve years apart and see if I can find how I allowed it to happen or how I brought it on myself. Whatever part of it is true, I am losing friends over it. I have become overly assertive, maybe even aggressive in defense of myself, feeling there was no one else to take up for me and I couldn't take any more blame being heaped on me. I deserve better, right? Well, now that I am looking at my contributions, I feel the aggressiveness going out of me; in its place an overwhelming frustration is showing it's face. But I digress.

One of the things I found when I began to see my helpless side was that was the only posture allowed in my family of origin. I could feel bad, sad, stymied, or any of the other passive feelings which, when acted out, do not invade anyone else's space. But anger? setting limits? saying 'No'? questioning? ABSOLUTELY NOT. They were  not allowed. So the victim role was the only place I had where I could actually FEEL something. Any other posture got me whipped, humiliated, slapped, locked up, and other wise punished. So I reached adulthood thinking it was normal only to feel sadness, bad about myself, frustrated with no options, etc. I had to dig deep in therapy to uncover other feelings - like righteous anger (and there IS such a thing), self empowerment, likeability, and the ability to love not just succumb. So I was wondering if that's the same or similar place you found yourself in where you lost awareness of your real feelings. I spent most of my life numb b/c that was the safest place to be in my family. I also believed being a victim was the only option open to me since I did not dare stick up for myself.

I don't know if this makes any sense to you, but maybe an example would help: I was offered a wonderful part-time job when I was a sophomore in college. The pay was fantastic, and it could very possibly have led into a terrific career for me. My father refused to allow me to accept it, saying people would think he was a lousy provider if his daughter took a job. (Yep, all about him and appearances.) If I had that moment back again today, just for an hour, I would take the job anyway - it would have changed the entire course of my life - and to hell with the consequences. And to hell with him. But instead I simply succumbed b/c I was so afraid of him. And I had no feelings about it then except crying into my pillow at night where he couldn't hear.

It wasn't until my T got me to understand that every horrible thing he said about me was a lie that I could begin to let the light into my shadow side.

I think you're brave.

towrite

[Hopalong]

Towrite, thanks for this:

the ability to love not just succumb

I love things we could put on a billboard to save people from destroying their lives.

Hops

[Portia]

Axa

As long as I could dump the blame on him I was tied to him.  Now that I am owning my own "parts" I feel distance from him, like I don't need the energy to go out to him anymore.........this sounds so all over the place, I do hope I am making some sense. 

All that you've said is making sense to me! Owning our selves and all that that entails separates us so neatly in some ways...I mean, once the part of ourself becomes crystal clear, it's like a definite line drawn between me and the other. I know what is me and not me sort of thing. Big huge stuff I feel. Liberating. I'm in the middle of it too.