Subtle "Abuse" and when to step in

[dandylife]

I got a bad feeling today and yet, felt perhaps it would be inappropriate to step in.

My N (former husband and now we're back together) was preparing for business and getting ready to take our son to a Cub Scout event (graduation to webelos and picnic in the park).

He was all stressed out and working hard at the computer (today is our busy day in business - getting ready for the start of the week). Anyway, I was making scrambled eggs and bacon for all of us this morning and our son goes over to him and says very sweetly, "so would you like water or orange juice with your breakfast?"

N lets out a huge sigh. And then says, "SON, perhaps you didn't SEE that I was typing furiously on my computer and preparing for a big day of business tomorrow. Perhaps you weren't NOTICING that I am typing and typing and working and working so that in 3 HOURS I can take you to your CUB SCOUT THING. What have I told you about INTERRUPTING my WORK?"

Son says, I am so sorry. I won't say anything else.

N says, "I'm so glad that YOU LEARNED something."

I am at the sink thinking in my head wow, I just really don't like this person. How mean, self-centered and stupidly focused on business. This is our son he's talking to.

I also think, well, I've probably said some things like this absently when I'm busy - am I really that different from him? I guess I would never try to make him feel guilty about having a cub scout event - that is special to him.

I guess I'm just wondering - what and when do you intervene when you see subtle guilt and n-ism?

Am I best to speak to my son out of N's earshot?

Or is it really a lesson that N needs - don't make others feel guillty about stuff they have nothing to feel guilty about?

And how to go about doing that ?

any thoughts would be appreciated.

Thanks,
Dandylife

[Hopalong]

God, Dandy.

I don't see anything subtle about it at all. I think he's just plain self-absorbed and nasty.

I decided to divorce my ex after he gratuitously and intentionally hurt my daughter's feelings.
That was my wake-up.

I would speak up. But not to the N. To your son.

I'd take him aside and say, I want you to know that you did absolutely nothing to deserve that. Your Dad was being mean and a bully. I'm sorry because I know every little boy loves their Dad. And you were so excited.

But even Moms and Dads have problems, and your Dad's problem is that he's mean. It was NICE of you to ask him what he'd like to drink and he was not even noticing. It was HIS job to tell us, nobody talk to me for the next 15 minutes becase I've got to do this work. That was not YOUR job, to guess. People are responsible for saying what they need, not expecting other people to just know.

You are a very nice boy and I am so glad I'm lucky enough to be your Mom!

(Grrrrr, this scene upsets me so. Sorry for the fantasy monologue.)

love
Hops

[mountainspring]

I would say something to him out of ear shot of your son at first.  Ask him if he would talk to a coworker or friend that way and why he thinks it's okay to talk to his son that way.  Then, when it happened again I'd say What? (like the verbal abuse book recommends) or Excuse me????  or What did you say?????  while your son is present.  This would let your son know that this kind of treatment isn't right and that he didn't do anything wrong in asking his Dad if he preferred water or orange juice.

MS

[mountainspring]

Hi Again,

Just read Hops' post and she may have a point about not speaking to the N directly...  Some N's, when they see they've upset you do it more because of the 'control' thing.  If your husband is this way it may be best just to talk to your son about it.

[CB123]

Dandylife,

I'm so sorry I can't remember your whole story!  Is your H like this with your son a lot?  If this is out of character, I would speak to him privately.  If it is a fairly common occurrence, I would speak to your son in front of him.  Something like:

Thank you, son, for being so considerate to your dad.  Since Dad has asked you not to speak to him, we'll let him get his own drink this morning.  What would YOU like to drink?  I think I'm in the mood for orange juice this morning.....

And then I would pull the conversation some other way.  And I would NOT get Dad anything to drink. 

Might need bigger guns, but I dont remember how many guns you've shot in the past!

CB

[mountainspring]

Thank you, son, for being so considerate to your dad.  Since Dad has asked you not to speak to him, we'll let him get his own drink this morning.  What would YOU like to drink?  I think I'm in the mood for orange juice this morning.....  /quote]

This is excellent CB.

[dandylife]

Hops,
Thanks - that advice is excellent. I will talk with my son right away and make sure he knows he didn't do anything wrong and that the problem resides within his Dad.

Sorry to hear about the abuse you experienced - you said "my daughter" - was the N your daughter's biological father? I ask because I'd want to know if so, if you kept her out of his life?

Thanks everyone for the input - I really like the "what did you say?" question - pointing out the obvious of the abusiveness of the response.

Sigh. I just sometimes feel so deadened, numb to the things he says - but then I think of my son and how much it must hurt.

Dandylife

[dandylife]

mountainspring,
when I try and ask "why" N does something, that seems to be a big trigger for an argument. I really like the "what did you say"? or "would you repeat that"? Somehow to bring it out in the open.

I guess, too, I feel a pull to say something to N later, like you know, our son's feelings were hurt....blah blah blah. But I just am not sure the right wording to avoid a fight.

Dandylife

[dandylife]

Ami,
I'm working on my "on-the-spot" N detector AND being able to deal with it on the spot. Glad to hear that you have that ability - it is truly a gift.

Dandylife

[dandylife]

CB,
You know that's what's so great about this Board - all the different ways we all cope and respond, etc. I've been thoughtful about what you suggested - and I think it's great. I will try this if it happens again. This way - you are giving the N exactly what they ask for - nothing more - nothing less - don't talk TO him and don't serve him, or give him a gift, or do anything nice for him, either, that you WERE prepared to do.

Yes, I quite like that. Thanks!

H is usually quite kind and respectful to our son, so actually it's pretty out of character for the most part. H is good when he is not distracted, depressed, or otherwise coping with alot at once.

Dandylife

[dandylife]

I thought that those of you that read this and responded might like to know what my son said when I talked to him.

Mom: You know today when you were asking your dad a question and he was busy on the computer? How did you feel when that happened?
M: I felt sort of uneasy. But that's just Dad.
Mom: Do you know that you did nothing wrong? Dad should not have put it on you to notice that he was busy - there was nothing unusual about the way he was typing and you could not have known that he was unusually busy.
M: But I knew that cub scouts was coming and I should have known not to bother him.
Mom: No, I'm saying you couldn't have known. And even if you somehow could have, he shouldn't have spoken rudely to you.
M: MMMmm. But I should have known.
Mom: If that happens again, we can do this. If he says don't bother me now, say OK and whatever it was you were going to do or offer him, you don't do. When he's ready to speak nicely, he can come to you. Or if I'm there, I can ask him a question like, did you mean to say it that way? So he can explain. Does that help?
M: Yes I think so.
Mom: You were very kind and I noticed that.
M: Okay

Dandylife

[CB123]

Dandy,

Beautifully done!  I am so impressed!  That's a hard conversation to have and you did it so well.

CB

[dandylife]

Ami,
I never learned as a child that I had a "gut" to listen to. My N dad was pretty hard and harsh. There was no discussing anything with him.  I guess I learned how to what is the best word? "relenquish" is what comes to mind. Relenquish my....power, idea, hope, dream, thought, wish.

I only learned pretty recently what a normal relationship looks and feels like (not from experiencing one, mind you, I'm not there yet!) but, from some therapy. And lots and lots of research!!!!!

It's good that you had that instinct while young and have held on.

CB123 - thanks! I cherish my son (and my daughter) and I really don't want him to take on the pain from an N, it's just so debilitating, so...draining.

Dandylife

[dandylife]

Bean,
thanks for your thoughtful reply. I labeled the subject "subtle" and some people mentioned well, it was not so subtle. But I thought it was because N's have this way of turning things around so they are the "good guy" ("I'm really busy here and you are bugging me") and the other person inevitably gets to be the "bad" guy. And it's not like getting hit in the face. (I mean, it is, but it's more SUBTLE) Your brain has to process what just happened and spit out the proper response. And for a little kid, that's hard!

I think the key is pointing out (in the moment if possible) what is happening if my brain can keep up. And if not, then afterwards following up with him so that he feels validated (my son).

I just hate to think of this kind of thing happening when I'm not here to step in.

Thanks again,
Dandylife

[teartracks]

Hi,

I've thought about this thread topic a lot.  Subtle "Abuse" and when to step in

I keep coming up with the same answer.  As soon as you recognize it.  If you're not sure, then err cautiously on the side of the child or the powerless victimized person.  Have the, I may be reading this all wrong, but this is what I got out of what you said.  Am I wrong?  conversation.  That way, the  abuser/potential abuser will know that you always 'have your ears on' as they used to say during the CB radio days. 

tt