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healing
Anonymous:
--- Quote from: Portia ---
As R was saying abut introverts elsewhere, I need external validation, I do not trust the values I have placed on memories any more. That’s why talking on this board is tricky in terms of drawing conclusions – it’s my take, my values, my memories. What I’d really like is couples therapy just to get the stories out. This is my story of that event: what’s yours mother/father/eye-witness? Tell the truth. I guess I might be in a law court here, so perhaps not such a good idea (but no-one is on trial: only the truth of events and then the subjective responses to those events).
People used to listen to me talk (teens, early 20s), smile and say “you’re crazy!” I guess meaning ‘what odd thoughts’ but I can say now, it was both flattering to my mind and I also wanted to punch those people for making me wonder if it was true. Crowds, lynch mobs, lunch mobs in the workplace. Sorry, darkness, back to you quick! P
PS. Here’s weird one on facts/experience/immediate memory. Going to bed the other night, OH puts radio on and there’s some silly song being sung on some comedy prog. I hear him sing along a line. I go into the bedroom and after a pause he says “so you know that song too?”. “Eh?” I say. He says “Weren’t you just singing it?” Me: “No, that was you singing!” Both of us: “Yikes!” (I think he had a conversation with me in his mind and took it as real – bit like thinking you’ve woken up, got out of bed, brushed your teeth…and then you wake up.) Odd chap, the brain.
Was it here or elsewhere? “You’re just jealous because the voices aren’t talking to you!”
--- End quote ---
Hi Portia, glad you enjoyed the henhouse story. Hi Farmer Grossman, how ya goin'? I'm talking to you again. Thanks for the affirmation the other day. Anonymous here appreciated it.
Portia, that idea about couples therapy with some of the people I've been entwined with is a scary thought. I wonder how I'd cope with hearing their versions in a cold structured environment. That's a hard one to comprehend. I think with some we wouldn't get past the greeting.
It'd be a total Monty Python kit.
Me, "Hi, nice to see you."
Other, "Why'd you say nice to see you. You haven't rung me for 75 years. Don't try and play the nice guy."
or
Me, "Hi, glad to see you."
Other, "No you're not, don't lie."
And these are supposed to be the most important people in my life. :shock:
I think with some, like my mother, I've worn myself out trying to get her viewpoint. She's rammed it down my throat. Her cronies have rammed it down my throat as well. And I really wanted get it too. It would have simplified everything, if I could see things her way. I would have been so happy so to be wrong about her, and a few others. But I had completely opposing values to her, to them, so it was not to be.
That is a funny story about your husband having a conversation with you in his head. I can relate to that. It's better than thinking you've woken up gone to the toilet then gone back to be. Then you wake up.....as the midnight surfer.
Nice talking to you.
Guest
rosencrantz:
--- Quote ---how much memory can be affected and influenced by our values. And how values drive our imagination
--- End quote ---
Thanks for making the remark as it helped me understand the difference better between a T and an F (and remembering the post you made about understanding the world from an F vs T perspective on another thread). The statement is true for an F but unlikely to be true for a T - so what you said here demonstrates your 'F'-ness. As far as I understand it, a T wouldn't say that. It's just a totally different take on the world. That's why we (all of us in the world) often have great difficulty in understanding each other.
I know that lots of people have gone 'huh?' at where I'm coming from - and seeing so very many people being 'I' on this board most probably has something to do with it.
'Can't you detach?' My response is 'No' with a kind of incredulous question mark (like, 'whoich planet are you from'!) :D When two opposites collide, it's often that kind of 'which planet' feeling (or whatever the equivalent of that reaction is for a T.)
I can relate to people or see people relating to each other and i'm totally 'in the zone' - then I might see the same people relating to each other and not know what connection is going on, what there is to 'understand'. What passed me by? Probably one of those 'polar opposites' at play. I tend to skip over the stuff that people write that I don't understand. Reckon it's none of my business to understand (otherwise I'd be asking questions til kingdom come and still wouldn't 'get it').
Memory and childhood.
Whooo! My 'classic' is having a memory come up from within my 'feelings' of being a toddler and someone pushing me over but then suddenly years later 'knowing' that never happened. I was a toddler learning to walk - nobody pushed me; I sat down on my bottom with a thump. That's terrible to realise I thought someone pushed me!!!
And being in hospital aged 6 - I had a doll and my mummy (!) sowed a special button on it - a magic button so that when it hurt I just had to rub the magic button and it would all get better. The child next to me screamed and cried when her mother left so the nurse asked me to give my doll to the other child. And I never got it back so I never did get my magic button. But for many years I believed it was my mother who had asked me to share the doll. Well, authority figures - they're all the same person really! :wink:
(:idea: Why is it that I'm always 'good' like I'm asked to be and then end up with the short straw!)
But some really strange things can happen, too.
After seeing that inexperienced therapist, and two years in group therapy getting my identity back in one piece, I was desperate for further therapy with someone, anyone, on the basis that there was some terrible secret lurking beneath the surface waiting to be told. I didn't know what it was but I feared it had something to do with sexual abuse (I didn't say that of course - too dreadful to say the words). I was sure they'd think that this was just me trying to get attention or five million other things I could think up and gave up in the finish. (Probably just as well as you will see...)
I didn't believe that any of those 'memories' ('feelings'? thoughts?) about child sex abuse could have been true - they didn't make any sense at all. I once tried to talk to my mother about it and she went crazy - I think I probably only got about two words out - I wasn't about to accuse anybody of anything but she went AWOL. So all that got shoved back into the cupboard - don't think, don't feel.
But a few years ago my cousin told me that HER mother (my mother's sister) had revealed just before she died that she had been abused (raped?) when she and my mother were little girls, away visiting somewhere in the country. I still don't know what the facts of it all were - whether my mother was there, involved, or just carrying the same 'unknown' burden of a terrible secret - but I had the most enormous sense of relief when my cousin told me - like the secret I was carrying (I?) was finally out in the open. I tell you - massive physical, mental and emotional relief. 'Oh thank God - you mean it really happened!'. (A highly inappropriate response but it just lurched out of me, goodness only knows where from)
So who knows what's real and what isn't. The 'memory' (or 'knowledge') was 'real' for me but it wasn't 'mine'. It wasn't 'me' who had the terrible secret - it was my mother - but somehow it had become 'mine'. (BUT who's going to believe me?) (Back in the old, well-worn, boring, tedious groove!!!)
R
Portia:
I believe you R. Maybe some of it is passed through genetic memory? Through the cells? Maybe it was just passed through body language when you were a wee babe. Maybe when you were the same age as your Mum was when that happened she told you to beware of strange things and in the story you picked up some truth? There’s so much we don’t know about how people communicate.
--- Quote ---but she went AWOL. So all that got shoved back into the cupboard - don't think, don't feel.
--- End quote ---
Maybe she wasn’t saying don’t think or feel, maybe she was saying ‘don’t talk about that – too much feeling for me’? Abused children feel guilty and the one who saw and witnessed is just as abused as the actual victim etc etc. And maybe guilty that you ‘knew’? Guilty that she’d passed the memory on? Many, many questions! (I can easily ponder this type of stuff without getting upset because I’m after answers. Digging away, ouch that was a nail in the soil but never mind, where’s that sealed box of stuff
rosencrantz:
Look forward to reading the story!!
Sure, I do see with today's mind and brain that I had touched that 'nerve' (yet again). But I was in my late 20s, still struggling with trying to make sense of life at the time, not realising that what I was really struggling with was my relationship with my mother (and my 'therapist'!). :roll:
'Everyone' still thinks even today that I am some recalcitrant teenager escaping from a suffocating mother and that I should have gotten over it by now and be repairing bridges. I can't be sure that's not the case. I may yet still discover that it's me who needs to 'grow up' - or that we are simply competing with each other in a grand folie a deux - each trying to outparent the other!! ? I'll look after you. No, I'll look after you. No, I'll...just open the door and leave. (It was me who broke the 'deal' and she really wasn't ready for it. She felt 'abandoned' and enraged - probably deep down just plain indignant - "after all I did for you"!!!).
What I should have said to my mother a long time ago is "It's not my job to provide you with someone who needs you" (rather than just turn my shoulder to the 'grinding' stone, put on my T Rex suit, to stop her invading me, and block her out). Of course there's a quivering wreck of a child hiding behind that suit. She shamed me again and again with her rages and tantrums and spiteful sarcastic words).
Things are 'fine' if I 'need' her. She recounts the one time I phoned up in need of a friend after I left home. Things were pleasant then. She acted 'normal'. But I don't trust her not to take advantage of my need - in order to tie me by her side and thus fulfil her need for someone to need her (still with me?!!). She's happy, in charge, confident. (If someone 'needs' me, so am I - maybe I've been hurt many times that she's refused my help? Maybe I'm just plain revolted that my 'need' feeds her. I can't bear her to touch me. I'm used, tainted.)
My H doesn't 'need' me - it's much safer, saner. I 'need' him (his sanity, his logic, his castle wall boundaries) but I think it's not the same. I 'need' those things to lead a healthy, independent life in 'connection' with somebody else. My son doesn't 'need' me either. I'm sad to say. I feel I've failed as a mother.
Take 2 : (frowns) Yikes! Is that success as a mother?????????????
"Whatever" :roll: :wink: (The answer is neither)
The fact is - what I've referred to is a folie a deux - that's me plus her - who's to blame and why is irrelevant. I can say it's both of us. But she doesn't want out and I do. If this was someone describing a marriage (like many on this board) I'd say - Brilliant - you got the message - so get out now!!!!! I can't bear to see people getting sucked back in.
But I bow very slightly to the concept of filial loyalty. I shall write back and 'demand' rationality I shall find a kind way of saying : "When we can get some rationality in our written communication THAT's when I'll have confidence to call you. Compare what I wrote with what you wrote back." Maybe she'll never manage it and I'll be free. :twisted: (Doubt it, Ns are far more conniving than that!!!)
I see I've found more words to make it easier to understand today : 'she felt indignant'. Except...the indignation has lasted 30 years! Maybe if she could have beaten the hell out of me, she could have gotten it out of her system (I've given her enough opportunities!?) - she's been doing it with twisted words instead - she's all twisted up wanting to be the 'good guy' in the pack (meanwhile I don't see why I should be the 'bad guy'!)
I wonder what I can do to make us 'both' the good guys when I'm so angry, too - partly because I've had to be the grownup for so long and 'take it' and 'take it' and 'take it'???!!!!! An impossible question.
R
Anonymous:
--- Quote from: rosencrantz ---
--- Quote ---
It's just a totally different take on the world. That's why we (all of us in the world) often have great difficulty in understanding each other.
I know that lots of people have gone 'huh?' at where I'm coming from - and seeing so very many people being 'I' on this board most probably has something to do with it.
'Can't you detach?' My response is 'No' with a kind of incredulous question mark (like, 'which planet are you from'!) :D When two opposites collide, it's often that kind of 'which planet' feeling (or whatever the equivalent of that reaction is for a T.)
So who knows what's real and what isn't. The 'memory' (or 'knowledge') was 'real' for me but it wasn't 'mine'. It wasn't 'me' who had the terrible secret - it was my mother - but somehow it had become 'mine'. (BUT who's going to believe me?) (Back in the old, well-worn, boring, tedious groove!!!)
R
--- End quote ---
Hi Rosencrantz, I think the equivalent to the 'which planet' thing for a T is, "This doesn't make any sense to me at all," or "Why don't you use your brains for a change!"
And the "Can't you detatch" thing. They may as well say, "Could you stop being, please?" Hell, we have been detatched from what's been going on (in some awful ways) all our bloody lives. And it's caused us to be cast adrift, isolated, Robinson Crusoe-ish for most of our frickin' lives. I feel like saying to them, these well-meaning, ignorant, thanks for f*@#*in' nothin' types, "You go detatch. OKAY!!!! And don't you DARE try to tell me what to do, EVER AGAIN, OR I'LL RIP YOUR DAMN HEAD OFF YOUR SHOULDERS AND SHOVE IT UP YOUR ARSE!"
But I don't, you know what I do. I implode!
And then I meekly wander off, sometimes embarrassed, and try to detatch, like they suggested. And then guess what happens? I get even more confused by it, (what I got stuck on) the next time.
AND you know why? Because some dickhead gave me crappy advice that I took. And so I never got to go through, work out or analyse what the hell it was that bothered me so much or why!
So the twisted cycle goes on. Till I learn to say nicely, "No I won't, but thanks for your advice anyway. I'm learning to know what's good me. And I know detatching right now would not be good for me, because I need to learn something here, and I can feel I'm going to learn something really valuable in this exploration and experience. Now you can either help me here, or get out of my way. And please don't tell me what to do?"
Aaah, that felt good!
And about that last bit, memory and what's real, I had a thought.
Maybe F's later in life, remember the events through how it made them feel. Their acute detail is in everything they felt. And actual order and events memories are secondary.
Maybe the T's remember the events in perfect detail and perfect order, and focus on actuals. And how and what feelings were affected are secondary.
Some parts of the last bit, about it being your mother's memory, I don't quite get. That's okay, I'm not expecting you to explain. But it connects with me somehow???
Guest.
--- End quote ---
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