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Wildflower:

--- Quote ---But … that’s it. I mean, so much of what my mom did could have made sense if there had been enough positive reinforcement to balance it out.
--- End quote ---


Correction.  The way my mom talked about her actions seemed reasonable, and that's what made it harder for me to see through them.  And I do believe that she meant well, but so much of what she did came out all twisted - and sadly, abusive.

Wildflower

Wildflower:
Hi Miss Space-Traveller :D,

Old topic that I’m finally catching up to: clothing.  I’ve also struggled for some time now with clothing, and shopping for clothes used to make me so deeply uncomfortable.  At first, I think it was mostly to do with the fact that I couldn’t really find clothes that fit since I was so overweight.  Even had to go to special stores.  But as the weight came off, my reluctance to shop stayed.  When I did buy clothes, they were almost always black – to hide the way I looked, and to keep from standing out.  Of course, I kind of stood out for always wearing black, but I still felt safely invisible.  I think those words about being ugly really sank in, and it has taken years of work with my therapist for me to be able to look in the mirror and see that I’m not fat, and I’m not ugly.  And I should be proud to express myself – through clothing.  It’s still really hard, though.  I still feel like I’m not cool enough to pull off some of the clothing I kind of want to wear.  I don’t know if this helps.  I’m really just responding to your comment about not feeling like you’re worth spending that kind of money on.


--- Quote ---It was a virgin moment. I was extremely anxious, clumsy and messy. But I was damned effective. My children may have witnessed her insanity and cruelty for abrief moment in their lives, but with me protecting them from her I don't think it has caused any lasting damage. I know they learned something about me then. And I gained some of my power back. There was a shift.
--- End quote ---


This must have been such a difficult, strange and exhilarating time for you.  Were you married at that time, or did you have to do all the moving and detaching on your own?

This reminds me of a self-defense for women class I went to thinking it would be one of those classes where you learn how to fight off an attacker, but it turned out to be a small lecture instead (still planning on taking a class like that some day, though).  Anyway, the woman giving the lecture asked us to do some exercise like scream out ‘NO’ as loud as we could, and the first couple of times we did it, we were all pretty wimpy.  Then she asked us to imagine that we were protecting our children (or pets or some other dependent) and the difference was eye-opening.  We were all desperate, loud, FIERCE.  She said that most women have trouble defending themselves, but they can hurl large vehicles when asked to defend someone else – especially their children.


--- Quote ---Yeah sure, and while I'm at it, why don't I go buy myself a bucket of death adders to keep me warm in bed tonight, you useless peice of ...."
--- End quote ---


:lol:  :lol:  :lol:   Tell me you said that at some point because it’s hilarious.  I got similar reactions if the subject of my dad came up after he told me he’d spent all his money (on a third story to his second home among other things) so he couldn’t continue to pay for my college tuition.  I was working as a summer intern at a bank when this typically aggressive banker type guy overheard me talking to one of the other secretaries about visiting my dad that weekend.  I think I said something like “I’d rather burn in H***.”  (These were my difficult years, mind you :roll:  :wink: ).  Well, he comes over and starts giving me a lecture about the importance of family and how his father and his sister stopped talking for years and years over some tiny little insignificant thing, so I should be careful not to do that and blah blah blah.  I was so angry my eyes started tearing up and I came really close to punching him.  Reeeally close.  Some nerve, giving me that bit about “some tiny little insignificant thing” when he clearly had no idea what was going on – because he’d never even bothered to ask before telling me not to go and do something foolish.  Rrrg.

Hunh.  Hadn’t intended to go on that tirade.  :oops:  :D  Anyway, the conversation between you and Mrs Couldn't Give A Stuff is talked about quite a bit in the book R recommended that I’m reading right now: When You and Your Mother Can’t Be Friends.  The third chapter, “The Bad Mommy Taboo”, is all about how abusive mothers are protected by so many mechanisms in society – to the point where the needs/protection of the abused child are ignored in order to protect the sanctity of motherhood.

From where I sit, reading your stories, I think your mother belongs in jail or in a mental ward for the criminally insane.  :evil:  I’m not kidding.  The fact that she hasn’t been arrested for assault (setting someone on fire??) is astounding to me.  Although I guess it’d be too embarrassing for a guy to go into a police station and explain how he got burned like that?  I don’t know.

Anyway, back to the book.  I read a passage that made me think about your last post and some of the anger you’ve shown towards the other men your mother was involved with:
 

--- Quote ---Other daughters hold their passive fathers accountable.  Gloria’s mother was a tyrant whose hair-trigger temper and scathing admonitions kept everyone in line, including Gloria’s father. Today Gloria’s anger at her mother has devolved to an apparent indifference, a kind of numbness.  But her anger toward her father is as fresh as when she was a child.  Why?  Because her father would not protect her from her mother – instead, he protected his wife.  Gloria says,

“I just wish he weren’t so damned meek.  And that he had gone to bat for me.  As a child, I think that was the biggest hurt, not her constantly berating me so much as his allowing her to treat me the way she did.  He knew what she was like.  Yet he would say, “You have to show respect for your mother,” whenever I’d complain to him.”
--- End quote ---


Was John the only one who ever stood up for you?  Where were you when her other boyfriends were around (when she wasn’t having sex with them – I know where you were then, and yes, that has to be a form of sexual abuse :evil: )?


--- Quote ---When something has affected me deeply, and then I realise I have made a life of making wrong choices because it's stuffed up my thoughts and feelings, it becomes critical for me to get to the bottom of the real issues driving me. This was what happened when I learned about narcissism and NPD. I'm sure I've over-read and over-researched this and a whole range of issues in my life, but I find for me it's exactly what I need to do if I'm want to conquer or master any subject or problem in my life. There's no other way for me.

So if I'm labouring and going over the same ground with 'mother stories', please bear with me, or else piss off, I don't care! I'm sorting out some serious shit here.
--- End quote ---


Even if you ARE hashing out some of the same issues that everyone else has faced, you may come out of your struggles with completely different results.  Look at R and me.  Some of what we’ve been discovering has been similar probably, but I sense that the answers we found belonged to different questions, don’t you R?  And some of the answers are different, too?  Or at least, different details?  But important details?

Thanks for the poem :D :D.  And of course you can be the blonde fish :D :D :D

Wildflower

Anonymous:
Hi Wildflower, meow Astor,

That was an interesting journey and series of thoughts you just posted (The washing up story  :shock: .  I think, "What is her problem!) and it leads me to want to share an enlightenment I was/am sorting through. It may all be re-fried beans to a you, but I'm used to being a decade late in my thinking. :D  Anyway, I love re-fried beans.

I was re-reading only yesterday through some notes I made some time ago about guilt, stress, a possibly shrunken hippocampus due to prolonged periods of stress and abuse, and then back to GUILT again. Yep, GUILT being the biggee.

At first when I was reading through, I had the thought to post it as a new thread, but then I concluded it's all too full of holes and half conclusions,  :D  :D , a bit like me  :D  :D . I'm so glad self-deprecation is one of my strong points! :D  :D

My title page says the following,

'WHY? WHY? WHY?'

"WHY Do We Strive With Abusive Parents?"
"WHY Do WE Strive With Abusive Spouses?"
"WHY Do We Strive With Abusive Friends?"

ANSWER. WHY we strive = we are conditioned to feel guilty.

(explanatory note - That's the title, "WHY?"  ANSWER -  being the conclusion of the author. My notes are a mish-mash, but you've got good insight and so I thought you might get something out of it. I know I did, but inside me it's still a work in progress, not a unified cohesive script yet. So here goes. Part 1 are the written notes. Part 2 is my written response to myself at the reaction or revelation I had at the time, and I wrote it and read it out loud to myself and cried at the time. Self-pity or self-awareness, who knows?? I jes' no's it felt rite!).  

Part 1.

'The Psyche Of The Abused' by Ken Levin

The abused child who is abused and/or neglected by
an alcoholic mother, or beaten by a brute of a father,
or sexually abused, takes on guilt and shame.

Somewhere in the damaged psyche develops the
Galut or Dhimmi mentality (Moslem or Arab terminology I think???)

The 'if's' come in.

With the 'if's' comes the need in later life to appease guilt.

We marry people like our parents.
We try to make it work.

We keep reaching out to our parents - relating!
Doing things for them - WHY? - GUILT!

FALSE - EXTRERNALLY IMPOSED GUILT
(note - big significance to me here)

Not for anything we have done,
but for (here's another big one) 'WHAT WE HAVE RECEIVED'

Punishment - we have been punished for
being alive and being a burden -
And WE ARE GUILTY!!!


Part 2.

Now comes the SCREAMING response I wrote down after I came out of the shock reality impact.

Question to self, "Why do I feel guilty about having been a child?"

Well, I'm still alive, and being still alive has meant that I've cost someone time and money. So, GUILTY!

I've created washing and would get sick sometimes and someone has had to look after me. So GUILTY!

I cried when I'm hurt and made a noise and a fuss. So GUILTY!

I made a mess sometimes and someone had to clean it up. So, GUILTY!

I had a vagina, which may have turned men (step-dad) on. So GUILTY!

I grew breasts breasts and became another woman in the house, a threat. So GUILTY!

I was young, when mum was getting older. So GUILTY!

I was loud and laughing and energetic mixed with innocence. So GUILTY!

Everything that I was punished for  :idea: HAD A REALITY AND A CONTEXT!!!  SO YES!!  :idea: I WAS GUILTY!!

AND I'VE CARRIED THIS GUILT 'WITH' MY ABUSIVE PARENT!!

The end of my notes.

Thanks for giving me the opportunity to share this Wildflower.

(((Wildflower)))

CG

Wildflower:
Hi CG,

First off, I feel like this is a cozy thread, a CG thread, so it completely makes sense for you to keep posting here. :D (((CG)))


--- Quote ---I had a vagina, which may have turned men (step-dad) on. So GUILTY!

I grew breasts breasts and became another woman in the house, a threat. So GUILTY!

I was young, when mum was getting older. So GUILTY!

I was loud and laughing and energetic mixed with innocence. So GUILTY!
--- End quote ---


This is just a first impression because these really hit me hard.  They add a whole new layer to your story.  
Not only were you

1)  the scapegoat (and thankfully confidant) as R so insightfully pointed out,

2)  a reminder of your father, as Portia channelled (I'd say 'insightfully pointed out' but you know how you're not supposed to repeat words, and well, I love the way you make connections Portia),

but now we have

3)  a very real (physical) threat to her as you grew up into the person that the very laws of nature required you to become.  

I wonder what would have happened if you had been a boy?

Wildflower

Anonymous:
You're a million miles ahead of me here. I'm stills stuck on the part about your mother not wanting you to watch trashy sit-coms on TV. In my best Scottish or Irish accent I say, "Oi cannay be-leeeve it!" And that look  :cry:  she would give you. I think I know that look, it produces such guilt and anxiety in the 'looked' :shock: . Looked, oh well, I coouldn't think of the right word.  Oi! :D

What was the show, go on, tell me??? You don't have to tell which character looked like your good dad, but tell me the show, pleease???

I've got one question for you. How did you manage to keep your studies up??? How did you manage to keep your mind on the job???

Darn it, I've got all these questoins in my head from your posts and now I gotta go for a little while, something just came up, but I'll be back!!!

CG

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