On taking responsibility

[rosencrantz]

In spite of all I said, in spite of all the pain I expressed, someone STILL had to...what was it they did...??  

I find words difficult to find.  But words make feelings less powerful.

...I experienced them as trying to cause me more pain.

You didn't 'get' me with that one, Guest, because I dealt with that a long time ago.  Feelings are feelings.  Feelings get triggered.  You wanted me to take responsibility for the impossible?  I used to feel guilty for every feeling I had.  

Perhaps you don't know what 'taking responsibility' really means.  I took responsibility for my feelings, Guest, in the rest of my post.  I took responsibility by owning them, by staying with them, by letting them take me where they would, by seeking the truth and standing by it.  

And do you know just how much responsibility I took?????

The original title of the thread was 'Despair'.  Just before I logged off last night I realised that this might cause some people concern, so I added the words 'and Survival'.  And I sent one person, who probably knows me better than many, a pm to make sure she didn't worry at what she might find here when she next logged on.

When I woke up this morning I realised it was (what appears to others to be) that 'being considerate' thing again - but what I'd really said was - "Don't worry about me, I'll be all right. Don't take too much notice." I say in one moment : MY PAIN GETS HEARD TOO.  The next, putting that little ol' blanket over it again.  

So many people have had far worse things to deal with than I have and they are here taking responsibility for themselves.  They are Aces in the pack.  Some I see making the transition.  I salute them.  Some need to take responsibility and they cause themselves pain in the here and now every time they don't.  But some people need to stop taking quite so much responsibility.

What's this about taking less responsibiilty???

The day I understood about my mother and NPD, I realised that I had taken responsibility for far too much.  I have taken responsibility for absolutely everything in my life.  Anything and everything my mother or anyone else did 'to' me was 'my' fault and therefore I'd stand and take it.  I actually wonder if that's a definition of a victim.  But how can someone so 'strong' be a victim, anyway?  

Groan!  As I start going round in a circle, I can hear 'you' out there.  Saying that I complicate things too much.  That's so 'unfair'.  When you've had someone play this many mind games with you - AND been a sweet person - AND been your average middle class etc etc - EVERYTHING becomes convoluted.  But it doesn't mean I'm not accurate about what I notice.  What would pass 'you' by, because you wouldn't even notice it, is right there 'in my face'.  Just because it would 'pass you by' doesn't mean it isn't there or shouldn't BE noticed.  

That's how abuse gets brushed under the carpet.  

So once I remember that fact, I'd ask 'you' if that's what happened in your home.  Curious, concerned.  And you'd just be brutal back.  OK.  Don't unearth that secret.  I will learn that what your brutality means is that I touched a nerve.  I will learn that you don't have to say 'yes' for me to know the truth.  Just the fact that you hit out will be enough.  

And where do I go from here...to 'back away' was the coward's way out.  'Not' to help was to tell a lie!!!  To give in would demonstrate cowardice and weakness - and the other person's 'wellbeing' was far more important than my fear.  Not any more.  Back away, let that person have their purple sky with yellow spots (the post was erased, I know what it means) with kindness and consideration.  I can't believe I was so 'in-considerate'.  There's a greater integrity in letting go.  

BUT - hit that nerve in some people and they will come to haunt you.  Be on your trail to 'get you' in lots of different guises.  I should be better prepared than most.  But I'm not.  

In another thread, I said I was standing on my own two feet.  Then suddenly it all disappeared into despair - one 'dig' from someone too many.  It doesn't matter who - and anyway it was the straw on the camel's back.  They are all as much to blame.  And yes - I will say 'blame' in this case.  

One person disagreed with me totally - that's not a problem.  I'm not 'sensitive' in that sense.  I'd like to share different perceptions with you but that seems not to be permissable at the moment.  

But it's the 'intent' to hurt that damages me most.  Someone meaning well for me said 'concentrate on your mother' - but that's where my PAIN comes from.  Not my perception.  This is new ground for me.  Important distinction.

But I found something out this morning.  Thanks again to Gingerpeach who has again, on another thread, sent me in the direction of something absolutely a propos.  It doesn't change the facts, it just gives me a clue as to what is going on.  And next time I'll know what's happening.

http://www.mtoomey.com/violating_liberating.html

I know which side I'm on.  Which side are you on?????
R

[Portia]

Hiya R. I love that link above, love it. I can only see liberating, I can’t even see violating straight off (though I can feel it), I have to look so hard. It’s understanding that other people can be violating that’s been the big key for me. I thought everyone wanted the truth deep down. Of course, they don’t, not now, not necessarily ever! Blimey. Maybe I got my fingers burned enough this time? You said one thing (boy you said a lot!):

But how can someone so 'strong' be a victim, anyway?

Do you have to be weak to be a victim? Shall we make the strongest man hold up the temple for us by telling him we depend on it? (Of course four of us could hold up the temple and we could take turns in groups of four, but hey, we want to go and play backgammon.) Stupid comparison but I don’t see the connection between strength and victim. Seriously.

Gone back to look at that link. ‘Seeks to expose’ – yes I do! Anytime, just call me.   Is that ok then? Wow!

Oh and choosing between you and mother. I wouldn’t have to. Neither of you is right or wrong, mad or sane, good or evil…er….black or white! But I know that you know (ha - I dare to think) that that is not the question. But just for the record and not to be so serious, I’d choose you. Darn! That’s not the point! It’s just a personal choice. I imagine I’d prefer your version of reality several trillion times over.

As for old red text……I really don’t think I care any more, I mean it. Do you? Apart from hurting, being hurt, being haunted ? Do you care about ‘them’ now? I don’t, I really don’t. It’s like losing something insignificant, it’s gone from me, it’s nothing to do with me any more (I know, wasn't ever, but you know..). It really isn’t. No connection. ORT never knew me, or you. Obviously couldn’t be bothered to research ‘information for clarity’. I admit sometimes I’m tempted to use information to ‘make a case against’, but what’s the point? I don’t feel any better and no-one learns anything. I would annihilate instead of being annihilated, but that’s fighting for survival. Sometimes you gotta do it, most often not. Shrugs shoulders, wanders off and hopes you’re getting somewhere v.important here R, I really do. Let us know, please….P

[rosencrantz]

but hey, we want to go and play backgammon

Oh Portia - you made me laugh - again, as ever!!!  You can be as lighthearted as you like.  I don't want to drag anyone down with me where I'm headed.  Just let me do it cos I must.  If you can stand around (if you can 'stand' it) and say 'I'm still here', well - to any and all of those who have seen my pain and been prepared to be there for me - well, that's much, much, much more than I could ever hope for but I will, please, accept.  I don't even mind if you go off and play backgammon.  

I thought I was doing pretty well today then I suddenly just slipped down a slippery slope this afternoon.  I don't know why or exactly where.  

Oh, I remembered how my mother described in my childhood that I would suddenly collapse, exhausted - ?  I do remember when I was 14, my body just went on strike one Saturday morning - I couldn't get out of bed.  I was off sick for some time, depleted of all energy. They said 'anaemic'.  I think that doctor was being kind as I met someone later who was much more seriously anaemic and not as incapacitated as I, so I know it wasn't that.

But depleted of energy - exhausted from trying to stand resilient against the onslaught.  Growing older, becoming more aware, my mind still couldn't process it and my body finally had enough.  I've just remembered : it happened again when I was seeing that 'bad' therapist!!!!!  I thought I might have had ME but no point in seeing doctors. I couldn't stand the strain of my 'symptoms' being disbelieved.  I was wise enough.  At the end of that year, I had nothing left.  Career up the swanny, incapacitated.  I finally went to see a doctor - he told me  I should pull myself up by my boostraps!    He meant well.  I really didn't do very well for help, did I?!  But neither did my mother - the times we live(d) in, I guess. (But I'm very responsive - picture picking yourself up by your own bootstraps - I did the impossible, of course, as ever.)

I think, I truly think that 'loss' drives my mother to this state.  I think she's in this kind of world a lot of the time anyway but loss drives her into its worst 'manifestation'.  So when I was ten - it all fits - her father died, my first thoughts of how to end my life (I only didn't because I feared her wrath if I hadn't completed the task by the time she got home and I wasn't sure how long it would take - ironic, at least.  I'm amazed at how well I worked it out - no 'attempt'; I meant it - tho I never even gave myself at least the kudos for sincerity only manipulation).  

I think she probably took it out on me then like she did for the years following my own 'escape' and as she has attempted to this past year.  A world full of horror and dread.  And she was ill; apparently I used to stay home from school to 'look after her'.  Hearing her being sick and collapsing in the bathroom, knowing she was running into the street in her nightie at night.  What was she trying to escape from?  She must have been in terrible psychological pain.  I found out a few years ago that her sister used to do that too!  It was scary.  And hidden.

I was the only girl in the class when I was ten who took home the prospectus for boarding school.  If anyone has read People of the Lie - you may remember the story of the boy who nearly went to boarding school to escape his parents.  The horror because you know what will happen when he doesn't go.  A tragedy.

Honest to God I can't imagine writing this.  Have I been taken over by an alien!!      I still don't have 'proof',  the memories of what was done. I know it happened because I've experienced it for years in everyday life. And I experience it in the face of my mother 'today'.  That's how I really know.  But I think she's getting 'better'.  And then we'll have to 'pretend' that none of this ever happened.  She's forgetting.  'Oh how could you say such a thing'.   We will pretend; it doesn't matter.

For those with mothers who damage them, take a big breath and read this.  I thought I was reading a political/feminist poem until about half way down and then....well, try it and see. I sobbed some more and couldn't read every word.  It's long.

http://www.mtoomey.com/theshamed.html

R

[rosencrantz]

As far as liberating anger vs violating anger is concerned.  I posted the link because now I understand that what people were 'doing' to me was expressing their anger - a violent, violating, dangerous anger. OK - I can understand that. I can recognise why.  I'm impatient, I confront.

I know (without being self-serving) that most of what I do comes from the side of 'liberating' anger.  Perhaps those people don't recognise it for what it is.  'Seeks to expose' ' Demands accountability' Threatening stuff!! And then there are male vs females styles (but listen and learn, you chaps!!  There's work to be done - and you don't get change without pain - and embarrassment - and brains!!!).  (The need to use your brain is another quote from Toomey - I like her stuff!)

But I also see how would-be victims might want to encourage people over to the side of violating anger.  I'm not so sure I haven't done it myself in the long distant past.  Just give it that little 'push'.  I'm glad that particular energy has faded from this board.  The people may remain somewhere but perhaps now they can let go the damaging energy.

But see, how all that's happened here is helping me to understand my mother better.  I didn't know that 'all' my mother is doing is expressing her anger, albeit in an unhealthy way, totally out of control and 'hidden' from herself, one that 'leads to abuse' and is so very damaging!!    (Is that all!)  

But it's all so very simple when you see it written down.  And 'bless you' all those B&^&* who have done me down in the past couple of days - see, it's true that 'Whoever comes, God sent"!!  I'd not have got here without you.  

But now, we're the ones sent for you - cos (whoever you are) you're going to have to smarten up your act and stop expressing your anger in an abusive way.  We've got your number, mateys!!!   And abuse stops here!!!

R

Violating anger...
Has a twist
Manipulates the truth
Has a hidden agenda
Attacks to hurt
Blames and proves "guilt"
Is a weapon
Seeks to discredit the other as a person
Has no accountability
Hides behind innocence
Is righteously superior
Assumes another's motives
Needs a villain
Refuses to claim anything
Seeks to punish
Uses information to make a case against the other
Fears exposure
Leads to abuse
Alienates and violates

That's my mother!!!!!!  

R

[Wildflower]

But how can someone so 'strong' be a victim, anyway?

When you’re forced to be other than yourself, when you’re forced to be strong before you’re ready, you’re a victim of another’s definition of you.  Of another’s need for you to be different, or be in a different place than you are.  It’s why so many of us ACON’s were robbed of our childhoods.  To be children, to be unknowing, immature, tempermental, needy, inappropriately playful, even simply playful, was not the right way for us to be.  So we were forced to be little adults.  To be serious.  To be strong in the face of our parent’s needs.

Oh, I remembered how my mother described in my childhood that I would suddenly collapse, exhausted - ? I do remember when I was 14, my body just went on strike one Saturday morning - I couldn't get out of bed.

[My issue on] Isn’t it amazing how they can see what’s going on and how something’s not right without ‘seeing’ it? [My issue off]

I've just remembered : it happened again when I was seeing that 'bad' therapist!!!!!

I’m so happy for you that you've discoverd this pattern, R.

You know, as I look back, I’m beginning to realize that I’ve actually had many panic attacks over the years, but there are only two that were so intense that they literally brought my entire body down.  The first one had my convinced I was having an aneurism, and I was so freaked out, I couldn’t walk down stairs.  Any stairs.  One of my dorm buddies in school had to carry me down the steps and over the snow bank.  It was so humiliating.  Especially when I realized that this was my body’s way of rejecting this thought: “I'm strong.  I can handle it.”  

The straw that broke that camel's back was that my father had surprised me with the knowledge of having his spent his massive inheritance on his lovely self – including the money my grandfather had put aside for my education.  To this day, my father blames my step-mother for this spending   (wow, messed up reality).  

Anyway, my mother’s side of the family was outraged.  Those that knew, of course.  We had to ‘protect’ my grandmother from this knowledge because she’d get crazy on us and there’ d be all kinds of messy bargains in the process.  That's true, and I won’t go into how my grandmother added stress to the situation because it’s a little petty, but let’s just say, everyone was outraged at what a tough situation I was in.  

So to speak.  Because you know what everyone did?  They put me in the middle of it all.  They called me relentlessly, pointing fingers, through me, at each other, all the while needing me to tell them I was fine, handling all of this.  Beautifully.  No one really seemed to give a damn that I was the one living with the anxiety of wondering each day whether the admissions office was going to call and say, "sorry, we can't wait any longer for your family to get it's s**t together, so you're outta here.  You go back home."  And I knew going home was certain death for me.  No one seemed to care that my father, through his actions, had basically made it clear how little regard he had for me.  No, no.  I had to comfort them.  In my time of need.

And then I broke.  Know what scared me most about that?  I could no longer lie to myself and believe that I could handle it.  I was fragile, and there was no getting around it, because my body had up and quit on me.

Why am I telling you this?  Because I know you relate to the power of the voices of our bodies, but I also hear bit of disbelief in your post about your perceptions – and maybe about your collapses.  

Honest to God I can't imagine writing this. Have I been taken over by an alien!!  I still don't have 'proof', the memories of what was done. I know it happened because I've experienced it for years in everyday life. And I experience it in the face of my mother 'today'. That's how I really know.

Now I’m going to say ‘stop’, but it’s because it really doesn’t help you (I think may actually hurt you) to think about your mom getting better now and maybe deserving better treatment from you.  Look at how miserable she has made you as an adult.  Imagine a defenseless child in your adult place.  It’s unthinkable.

Now.

But I think she's getting 'better'.

So she must have been WORSE when you were a child.  I know my parents were.  They were so young and immature.  My father was punching holes in the walls and throwing stereo equipment out the window.  Now he just threatens suicide in a completely unbelievable way.

Now, what I’m about to say is something I’m ‘experimenting’ with, so I don’t know if this will help.  But what I’ve been doing with my mother is ‘splitting’ I think.  It’s the only way I can deal with what I have to do right now.  One (small) part of me has been given the job of forgiving her and understanding how much pain she’s going through by staying sick.  The rest of me is dedicated to healing myself.  She doesn’t need to know all about what I’m thinking about.  And frankly, even if she were reading these posts right now, I’m not really sure she’d ‘recognize’ me.  Even with all the concrete details I’ve been scattering about.  Or if she did, she wouldn’t ‘hear’ how much I still care about her and I’d be attacked.  My point?  What you’re going through right now with your memories and piecing them together - that’s you.  Protect it.  In a room without your mother watching.  It’s all you.

You’re doing GREAT work, R, and I'm so excited for you that these words are finding their way out.  

Take care, and take it easy on yourself, if you can.
Wildflower

[Guest user]

Dear Rosencrantz,

Have you ever considered the possibility that you are JPN?

[Dr. Richard Grossman]

Guest user,

If you have something to say, say it.  Otherwise I will delete your post.

Richard

[rosencrantz]

Have I ever considered the possibility that I am JPN?  Yes, I have. Guest user.  Frequently.  I am sorry that you don't yet feel strong enough to look at your own mixed up, upside down life yet.  We'll be here for you when you find the courage.

(I was tempted, I was sooooo tempted!  Probably not quite humble enough but hey, I'm not the parent nor a therapist. No need to delete today, RG.  I've got his number - thanks to Pandora's post and to yours.  But, yes - good idea to check his box, it's time you took this responsibility.)

I suppose in that last sentence to RG, I'm just talking to my father-in-disguise but perhaps all of us on this board need someone else to stand up to the bullying, 'define' the bullying and deflect it, while we get on with what we need to do to repair the damage until we are strong enough.  

Facing up to dysfunctional parents/spouses just means more damage before we've had time to repair ourselves. Or maybe that's just me again. Without the dysfunctional stuff going on, I wouldn't be howling with pain right now and being forced to expose the raw edges. On the other hand, the 'journey' shouldn't be so intense that it stops us functioning....anyway, I can stop there - not my philosophical/ethical problem to resolve!!!!!    Not My Responsibility. The Buck Stops Somewhere Else!!!

Actually, that fits in with what I came in here to declare ie that I can't be an adult until I've had an opportunity to be the child.  Too much responsibility too soon, too much self-control required from too young an age.  A good childhood allows you to kick out and gradually find better ways of dealing with things.  

  My own child did that on his first day at school  He kept kicking out.  They never forgave him!!  What upset me was that they didn't look at what had been done to HIM to cause him to do it, given him other options for dealing with his anger.  They punished him for not being controlled enough (at 4) when someone did something mean to him.  And they scorned him constantly and relentlessly for standing in the middle of the classroom and crying - a boy.  So the bullies got the upper hand.  And he ended up constantly talking about killing himself and of course I wasn't wise enough to put the right two and two together - I blamed myself (I had contaminated him because I had had so many similar feelings in my life, I had (must have) brutalised him in so many ways, the shame).  Thank God, we moved away. Thank God I have finally understood this last year that none of it is about 'me' and the harm I do so I could repair the harm I really did do!!!!!

My mother fondly smiles at how I used to declare 'I do as me told'. What a sweet child.  You bet I did as I was asked to do, I strived and strived to please her (as children do) and she just played mind games.  Being required to put up with emotional beatings and take it on the chin (what you do has no correlation with what 'virtuous-me-mother' did to you, bad girl, not nice, naughty, naughty, naughty).

Whatever I did, I got it wrong.  "Be perfect - only you're never going to have permission even to get it right - and I'll portray myself as an absolute angel of a mother." (I think I'm not just being immature here - I've rejected these perceptions so often - but I think they are accurate - not 'just' the child's natural desire to see 'sweet mother')

Lots of kids would rebel (and are still rebelling so it's just as bad) - I just kept on trying.  And mainstream therapy would require me to take even more responsibility for all I am.  But all that I am that might be like her just gets everything confused.  Guilt for blaming her for being like me. (?) But HER first.  Let's sort out HER first because she's the one playing mind games.  However much I'm like her, there are so many ways I'm not. (Actually I think I'm nothing like her at all - I fear that she's just my 'shadow' side and there is still much to learn but the thought that I'm 'just like her' just unhinges me!)

From her perspective, I assume she didn't actually play mind games - it was just that HER mind was in chaos and caused chaos in/for others.  Don't, please don't, ask children and therapy patients to take responsibility for THAT!!!  

I received a letter (see, she's getting better - a tatty old piece of paper but an A5 letter rather than a scribble on the edge of a printed sheet) complaining 'why don't you tell me what you're doing and then everything would be all right''.  

Yet I had written to her last week explaining exactly what was happening!  

In the old days I'd feel I was going crazy.  More recently, hot frustration, guilt and anger at the implied blame, the injustice, what-will-people-think-if-she-tells-them-I'm-not-doing-things-properly, (she aims to claim that all women neglect her so I don't stand a chance).  

Perhaps now I realise that's it's also a ploy, manipulation to force me to call her (but even that's only so she can twist things round and really drive me crazy so I'm ready and ripe for her to suck the energy out of to get her 'confidence' back - and if that ain't NPD, I don't know what is!!!!!!!)

But now I 'just' see her anger, manipulating me.  No, I still see the persecutor on the horizon - tho that, too, is anger-based.  What she's telling me (at adult level) is that 'if only' I'd do as I'm told then she wouldn't have to feel angry with me   (That's what these NHs do to their wives!) (That's what parents do to their children all the time) (If only you'd cry, I wouldn't have to hurt you any more)       I'm going to have to read Alice Miller again.

Anyway, I know without any doubt that my mother wants me to take responsibility for everything in her life so she can 'Aunt-Sally' me to her heart's content.  "Knock her down and pick her up, knock her down and pick her up, knock her down and pick her up."  She's a two-year-old in disguise.  Baby Jane. Persecutor-Victim-Rescuer all in one. I'm outta here quite soon - I'd have been 'outta here' a lot sooner but she's managed to make everything take much longer than you'd ever imagine.  You've got to hand it to her!!!!! (I'm such a wicked daughter)

(If anybody actually read this long and convoluted post - thanks for being with me)
R

...and there was a new voice
which you slowly
recognized as your own,
that kept you company
as you strode deeper and deeper
into the world,
determined to do
the only thing you could do--
determined to save
the only life you could save.

The Journey, Mary Oliver

[Wildflower]

Hi R,

I saw this and had to post immediately.  Made me so mad to read this:

My mother fondly smiles at how I used to declare 'I do as me told'. What a sweet child. You bet I did as I was asked to do, I strived and strived to please her (as children do) and she just played mind games. Being required to put up with emotional beatings and take it on the chin (what you do has no correlation with what 'virtuous-me-mother' did to you, bad girl, not nice, naughty, naughty, naughty).

What a sweet child.  
you, bad girl, not nice, naughty, naughty, naughty  
What a sweet child.  
you, bad girl, not nice, naughty, naughty, naughty  
What a sweet child.  
you, bad girl, not nice, naughty, naughty, naughty  
What a sweet child.  
you, bad girl, not nice, naughty, naughty, naughty  
What a sweet child.  
you, bad girl, not nice, naughty, naughty, naughty  
What a sweet child.  
you, bad girl, not nice, naughty, naughty, naughty  
What a sweet child.  
you, bad girl, not nice, naughty, naughty, naughty  
What a sweet child.  
you, bad girl, not nice, naughty, naughty, naughty  

My mom did this, too.  I was such a great kid.   Oh, wait, no.  I was ugly and mean and emotional and didn't like anybody.   And yep.  Dad, too.  I was brilliant and warm and caring.   How could I possibly think such stupid things?  And everything I say is "like a knife" through his heart.  

Talk about a reason to not listen to them and get off THAT merry-go-round.  Make up your mind!!!!

Wildflower

[Portia]

Dear R, first a random thought. JPN short-code for Japan (stockmarket?) and the capital of, is? Just wondering. Seems stylistically similar. Not that it matters, but there I am, digging away for ‘truths’ to expose. If it’s not, the subject can always come back and say so. R, do you mean RG above?

the 'journey' shouldn't be so intense that it stops us functioning

I’m constantly amazed at how this board - combined with your mother - affects you physically and emotionally. I can feel stuff off the screen (oh boy yes) but I can walk away, think about it and detach. I don’t get that upset! I did just one day when I thought “nobody wants me, I’m evil” but not really since. What am I trying to say? Same board … different journeys? I’m not disagreeing….I think about the board a lot, but I feel less, maybe it’s because most of my ‘stuff’ is in the past and not directly the present. The present I can cope with – lots of distance and little contact: sorted. The board does not make me physically ill.

I wonder why Dr G really set this site up. And what he thinks of it now. And where it will go. And if he ever uses any of it, professionally! (Adopts Freudian accent: “and here we haf a fine example of ……). Shall I ask? No! I trust the board enough thank you. (What an awful ancient parody that was!)

Let’s get to the meat of the matter:

Let's sort out HER first
HER mind was in chaos and caused chaos in/for others

Yes, I’m agreeing. Tell me about when she dies? I know this has come up before with lots of different people, but how do you feel about it? Will it be ‘over’? What if she had died yesterday?

'why don't you tell me what you're doing and then everything would be all right''.
Yet I had written to her last week explaining exactly what was happening!

Want to elaborate? This sounds classically crazy stuff.

[rosencrantz]

Talk about a Freudian slip - that was my father's initial!!!!!!!

When she dies?  Relief.  Escape.  Regret.  Tears.  Relief.  Safe at last.

Classically crazy.  Hmmm - well, that's why my head is where it is!!!!!  (Especially cos nobody else knows what she does!!!!!)

I don't much 'care' where I am at the moment.  If anybody doesn't like it, that's tough.  I've been seriously undermined by what's gone on here in the past few weeks.  I recognise that.  I'm writing furiously to try to work through it.  I don't mind that.  (Well, yes I do, actually!  I mind very much but that's where I am - what am I supposed to do - go get myself checked into the loony bin and ask them to take me away from all this.) I'm getting rational support and communication and I appreciate it.  (Actually a health farm wouldn't be a bad idea!!)  

If people want to make stupid jokes, it just shows how totally ignorant they are (in all senses of the word),  And cowards for hiding behind anonymity.  Too easy to take pot shots in hiding.  They wouldn't go anonymous if they were proud of what they were doing.

I've noticed a couple of times people come in to make jibes, taunt and cause damage then say thank you to others for lightening things up.  Sorry, I don't get it.  Are they saying they have no self-control and need other people to provide the control for them?  Sad bastards.  They spread mistrust by posting in one name and then revealing they have another name on the board.  No, can't get my head round that one either.  Was that you Portia?  No, of course it wasn't but it's the kind of mistrust it spreads.  Like muck.

And it happens just when things are settling down again.  There's nothing remotely amusing about getting at people when they have already been undermined.  Just shows their own weakness and cowardice.  Bullies are mean people who are just frightened underneath.  Just like my mother.

People are getting on with what they need to get on with.  Things were much lighter before people came in simply to cause damage.  Well, success for them, bully for them.  Some people got damaged.  That's the narcissistic way.  I guess the jibes are their way of expressing their guilt and shame cos they haven't grown up enough yet to handle it any other way.

R

[clj_writes]

Dear R,
You mentioned you have been writing furiously and that made a light bulb go off in my head.  There's a introspective writing method that I've found invaluable in my personal journey and I'm thinking you might also like it.  It is called Proprioceptive Writing.  The idea is to get behind the meaning of the words and phrases you use by asking "What do I mean by?" as things come up during the writing.  You also use Baroque music and a candle to slow your heart rate and to stimulate your senses (i.e. the proprio).  The idea is to gain a deeper understanding of yourself as you explore what you write and what you mean by what you write.  At the end you ask four closing questions:
1. Thoughts heard but not written,
2. How do I feel now?,
3. What larger story is this part of?, and
4. Ideas for future writes.  
It is a powerful technique to say the least.

The book that describes the method is "Writing The Mind Alive" by Linda Metcalf and Toby Simon.  Here's the link (I used Dr. G's link from the reading list page):
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0345438582/richardgrossman/002-5937512-2280821

Take care

[rosencrantz]

Thanks Christy - Interesting to hear of different styles.  Do you think I don't get behind the meaning of words already?  LOL Some people think I get TOO much meaning.  I find if I think/write fast that I am more honest as it doesn't let my mother's craziness in to undermine me.

But I process a lot of stuff as I write and pull it all in as I go along.  Those first three questions are just naturally in my head all the time.  And a few others.  Having said that, it takes me hours to actually work through the thoughts and feelings and get the words to say what I really mean.  Just as well hubby and son like each other's company.    I don't emote all over them but they know I'm processing important stuff and support me.

With any luck this will be the last time and I'll finally have it all out in the open and get my foundations back in one piece.  I know just how badly damaged they were by that second therapist.  He did more damage than my mother ever did.  I was ready to be open and he just smashed into everything.  Created new wounds on top of old ones that are now easily re-opened by other people.  

I'd use the process you suggest if I were doing some creative writing or mulling something over.  I've got the Mozart/baroque music that's supposed to help you think better.  But this isn't time for mulling!   This is that Thunderbirds moment.  Dah de dah dah...
R

[Portia]

R, the last 3 paras of your post above of 10:30 am: is that resignation or anger? I can’t tell. If it’s anger, can I please be Parker “Yes, m’Lady” to your Lady-Thunder-Bird?! If it’s calm truth-telling, good for you, sounds like the truth to me, my perceived truth anyway. I think you get well into the meaning of words…but it takes a sprinter to keep up! Phew, puff, puff…bye for today, worn out..P

[rosencrantz]

Back again!!  Hmm - just re-read that post to Portia - I seem to have a new voice.   I've never said 'sad bastards' before in my life.  And yet there's a lot of them around!!!  I just never 'knew' before that people intended to hurt.  Maybe that's why I'm so short sighted - can't see, won't see. The Psychiatric Nurse said that she thought my mother was trying to hurt me. (Did I say nobody knows what my mother does?)

I feel exactly the same as you Portia about wanting someone to objectively say what's wrong with my mother so I can get on with my life instead of having to deal with the guilt and feelings of disloyalty for 'thinking' these thoughts about her.  

I'm starting not to care tho.  As I come to understand that some people just need to hurt other people consistently, day after day, year after year...it just doesn't matter any more.  

And as I come to understand that there's a continuum : I might tell you I'm angry, or I might give you a metaphorical quick kick on the shin - not nice but if I'm honest about it, it won't damage you.  It's the insidiousness of it all that does the harm.  This new word 'mean' - the meanness.  It's hard to see our own shadow.  So I accept that other people find it hard to see theirs, too.  But it's not an excuse.  We are all accountable.

I really came back in to talk about laughter - some people think it's funny and lightening things to take the piss out of other people.  Maybe they really do think that.   Maybe they don't realise how shallow it is.  I do realise they don't care how damaging it might be.   But I've experienced genuine laughter with other people on this board in the past day or so (and before that, too) - it's a laughter that comes from recognition and yes, intimacy, confidence in each other.  Warmth.  Frankly, I'll even use the word 'love'.  Laughter to treasure, hug to you, relish.  Wonderful word - 'relish', so close to 'flourish' and so to 'blossom'.

Sad bastards who find that difficult to handle well, what's that phrase.  "Whatever.  "  I'm not here to nanny you or even 'understand' you.  So what does it matter to you that I don't find you funny.   A long time ago I said that there's a difference between the victims of Ns who are searching for their voice and Ns who use their voice to silence others.  Now...I see you. I know you.
R