Naivte

[gratitude28]

I was just reading Storm's topic on whether we all have the ability to be Ns and I got to thinking about a problem I have believing that people are Ns... it's like hookers for me. I can SEE someone on the street pick up a john and STILL never believe that they go on to do what they do to get money.

Well, I think mud clarified so much of the real N with a PD. N traits differ greatly from a person with NPD, as it is set in during early childhood and the person never knows anything different...

I am getting away from my point here...
I am seeing now, many times over, that my mother lies. She lies about little things and about big things. And she schemes. But I still have a hard time believing it. I know it, yet I can't believe it. Maybe because I don't do those things????????

I also am at a loss lately to decide what I should do regarding her. Is it okay to detest her? Should I be trying to see her in a better light so that I will be doing a "right" thing?

Thanks for any help.
Love, Beth

[lighter]

I'm currently trying to decide what to do with my Very SELFISH mother.  If she walked around lying all the time and sabotaging me, I think I'd have to lable her TOXIC and avoid avoid avoid.  I'd have to do the NC thing.  I know I would.

I feel sorry for my Nhusband on a couple of levels.  On the other hand, the damage he wrecks is so traumatic for me that the urge to stay stuck in hating him is very intense. 

That's not good for me though.  My longterm plan is to just learn and stop thinking about him.  Forgive him and find a better life that has nothing to do with him. 

I don't see my NON N mother that much.  I wouldn't see her at all if she was very hurtful to me. 

I say this bc every time I tried to have anything at all to do with my N, I got stomped on and couldn't limit the damage.  No matter how hard I tried.  Like trying to keep a Jack Russell Terrirer from licking your mouth, they're going to lick lick lick you, no matter how hard you try to keep them from doing it, lol.  I admit, I don't own the skills to limit contact.  I have to have NC or I get damaged.  JMO.   

[axa]

Beth,

I am so in there with you.  It is as if part of my brain does not have the capacity to process the reality of their being evil in the world.  I am so hooked into the badder they are the more softness there is underneath.  It is crazy.  I resist seeing the truth.  I want to scream that is not how I want it to be, which of course is about control for me.  I want everything, everyone to be nice.  What planet do I think I live on.  Even those who have abused me I want at some level to leave off the hook.  I know that this naive attitude is what has sucked me into N relationships over and over again.  Its as if I cannot see a middle ground.  I understand all the theory but there is this kid stuck in here who wants to make it all happy ever after.  I want to grow up.

axa

[tayana]

Gratitude,

I have an n-mother.  The kindest thing I could say is that she is not an N, but rather just has N tendencies, or perhaps has borderline personality disorder.  She manipulates, she lies. She schemes.  She refuses to talk about any issues in an adult manner to actually resolve the issue, instead, she covers it up and hides it.  Then it comes back like an enormous whirlpool to suck all involved down.  I have been a victim of her emotional, verbal and financial abuse for years, and I decided I'm not taking it anymore.

As for what to do with her, I try to not talk with her anymore than I have to.  I will be pleasant and cordial about matters when she's willing to talk to me, currently we live in the same house, so I see her much more than I would like.  I'm trying to escape from her, and she has been sabotaging that.  I am undecided about how much contact I will have with her when I finally do escape.  I do have a child, and he wants to see his grandma.  I think my actual contact with her is going to be rather limited though.  After the things she's pulled, I have no desire to see or speak with her. 

You have to decide how much contact  you can handle.  You didn't say how hurtful she is.  My mom is like an emotional vampire.  She just sucks all of the energy out of me.  I would say have as much contact as feels comfortable, but don't trust her.

[Hopalong]

Aww, Beth.

Just be true to you. You don't have to plan to have an appropriate feeling.

You just have the feelings you have, let your mind observe just observe the emotion: whether it's detestation or neutrality or pity or calm indifference.

None of us are static. Your mind noticing, and your decisions being self-respectful, and your boundaries up.

Do those and no feeling will harm you. (You're human.)

love
Hops

[Confounded]

Beth, I can really relate you your feelings of dismay when faced with behaviors that cannot possibly work out well for the person.  You wonder, "Can this really be happening?  Surely not..."  But it is.

This may blow your mind.  I know that it blew mine...  Some people lie automatically.  I know, it sounds impossible.  But it is true.  I was married to a lawyer for 15 years.  He is an automatic liar.  When faced with a question that you or I must answer, the first thing that pops into our heads is the truth.  Overriding the truth would take great effort, and it would affront our sensibilities.  We could do it, if the Nazis were chasing us or something.  But it would always require effort.

As my prior marriage blasted apart, I learned the answers to many questions the beginnings of which had puzzled me for years, and when they became full-blown inquiries, the answers stunned me.  When faced with something that he didn't want to admit, the lie popped into his head FIRST, not the truth.  He was brilliant in court.  Never lost a jury case.  Of course not.  He could lie with such ease.  It was automatic.

The official diagnosis, once the psycho-neurological testing was done, was pathological lying (this just means that it causes trouble in one's life, and does not cover the automatic nature of this case), with ADD and sociopathic tendencies.  Specifically, the process of brain development called lateralization did not occur correctly.  He should have been a lefty.  They made him into a righty.  His language processing is spread across both hemispheres, leaving less room for other functions.  Long-term memory, the very stuff we're made of, is lacking.  It is of an organic nature.  After reading the seven-page report, my reaction was,"Oh shit."  Not long after, he did something terribly wrong, again.  I called it quits, even though I was expecting our second child.  I refused to bring up my children in such a household, lest they think it "normal."  As a divorced person, he makes a devoted dad.  Being a lawyer, and a father, gives him somebody to be.  His sense of self is extremely vague.   

In the end, I feel sorry for him.  Perhaps you can find it in your heart to pity a mother who is so abnormal that she makes you detest her.  In any case, we can just forget about her changing.  Ain't happening.  No way.  Spend your energy on something that might pay off and try not to get sucked into her craziness.   

[axa]

Beth,

I think you feel what you feel.  Someone wrote a good post about being the observer and detaching from the situation which is very interesting.  It may help, when you do have contact to try and picture yourself standing back from the situation, what am I feeling, what is this person doing.  The more you can move back the more you can see and the more you will find the answers.

Want to say I agree ........ the only change that will happen is in yourself she is going to continue on her merry way.
 
Ami,

When XN called to see me for the first time I was focused on MY needs.  My need was to have no contact with him and I acted on this.  I was not concerned about his needs......... whew, it does work.  I think a significant part of the problem is that we have this unrealistic hope that if we meet the others needs they somehow will meet ours.  It does not happen.  In itself it is an unconscious game that I have played out.  Meeting my own needs in what could have been a very very abusive situation again has been such an eye opener for me.  Nothing like a bit of experiential learning to get the message across to me.

Axa

[Ami]

[q
When XN called to see me for the first time I was focused on MY needs.  My need was to have no contact with him and I acted on this.  I was not concerned about his needs......... whew, it does work.  I think a significant part of the problem is that we have this unrealistic hope that if we meet the others needs they somehow will meet ours.  It does not happen.  In itself it is an unconscious game that I have played out.  Meeting my own needs in what could have been a very very abusive situation again has been such an eye opener for me.  Nothing like a bit of experiential learning to get the message across to me.


Dear Axa,' 
I think that you have said in ONE sentence (above)the answer to our problems. I was so focused on everything outside myself. They call it in Psychology-external locus of control (I think).
I realize from getting a little better that this was one big reason that my life was so screwy.
I was almost totally focused on the outside---- what others would think of me ,how I would look,
how I should think(in terms of what is normal), etc.
 Your post above says it all. You focused on you- so simple- so true - and the DOOR out of the prison cell.
  Axa, the point above would make a good new thread, don't you think?   You are an inspiration to me.                                             Love Ami

[gratitude28]

Thank you all so much for responding and, as always, pointing out what I was unable to see...

Yes, you are so right, Hops and Axa, I should just feel what I feel. The truth is, I realized, that I don't feel anything. I think my feelings toward her have ben dead for a long time. I only have irritation and annoyance towards her. It is just that things have unraveled, and I now realize for how long she has slandered me and that so many people see me in a different way than I am because of her.
Wow, Confounded, I know what you mean about being able to lie now. As a teen and young child, I lied constantly and I remember one day thinking it simply HAD to stop. I hated it. And now I think it must have been a copied behavior. And out of fear... I am sorry to hear you had to live with that lying. It must have been so hard to deal with. I am glad you are giving your children a more stable home. And, yes, I go through stages of pitying her. But I get sick of the fact that my sister can do no wrong and I am just a pain in the ass to her.
Tayana, thank you. you reminded me that part of the reason I have not gone completely NC is that I am not ready to tell my kids their grandmother belongs in a straight jacket. LOL Seriously, my dad adores the kids, and not to bore you to tears, my mother makes it so that it is difficult to visit (there's always money for their vacations and stuff, but never for travel to see us). So they have made me feel guilty for years for "moving away." And, until now, I have been the one to pay to see them... and my mother acts like I am "rich." So, I did do one good thing this time. When we move back, I told them they were welcome to come and visit as soon as they could, but we couldn't make it up there. Of course they are doing vacations between now and then and are not sure if they will have enough money to come for a while.
Ami, thank you. Yes, it is so hard to internalize. And I was also thinking that I have a few Ns that needed to be weeded out of my life... it's hard to do sometimes. Thank you for the validation... for me the hardest is to continually revisit that I am not making this up.
Lighter, thanks for putting it in black and white. I just don't think I am completely ready to cut my dad off. I feel that he, too, could make an effort to have a relationship with me and he hardly does. However, I do know that he loves me and the kids... I am trying to figure out how to do this to get to as little contact as possible.
And, Axa, to go back to your original post... I wonder why we do this???? Why do we give people the benefit of the doubt when they sure as heck don't deserve it?????

Love you all and thank you so much.
Love, Beth

[pennyplant]

Hey, Beth, if you were making this up--you wouldn't feel this way.  It is all real even if it hard to explain to others or to yourself.

I like how you told them they can come visit you rather than the other way around.  The NC might just happen naturally in this case.....  I often wonder how much contact is normal between parents and their adult children anyway.  My kids are adults now and the visiting thing is different for each of them.  Easy with my youngest, difficult with my oldest.  I visited my parents out of duty and sometimes out of not having much of an alternative.  Never having really built much of a social circle of my own for various reasons.  And I see all around me parents who know way too much about their adult kids' personal lives and interfere way too much as well.  By my standards, I suppose.  But still.  I don't see a lot of really healthy or happy interacting between the generations anyway.

Of course, I live and work in an N-vortex.....

One nice thing about military moves is the chance to get a fresh start every so often.  Maybe some of the Ns you want to cut out of your life will be out just by virtue of moving?  That would be good.  And in the new place, your N-radar will be sharp and useful.  Most Ns won't get past it!!!  Yay!

Hang in there, Beth. 

Love, Pennyplant

[reallyME]

As I've been reading some posts here today, and feeling with all of you, a thought popped into my head that I'd like to share.

One of the biggest dilemmas with N's is that we tend to have "expectations" and "shoulds" about people in general.

When a person says to her mother "Mom, what do you think of this dress I have on?"  the normal response might be, "oh that really brings out the blue in your eyes." or maybe "wow, that's a really interesting choice for you, but are you sure that you'll be able to wear something informal to your new job?"

With an N-mother, the answer might be "what on earth gave you the idea that you'd look good in that?  That would look so much better on me, with my long legs and slender body.  You look like a little stuffed sausage in that."

So, N-mother's reaction was to SELF-ELEVATE and DEVALUATE us. 

We can respond in one of many ways.

We can say to ourselves ("I guess she's right.  I'm so ugly. What was I even thinking trying this on?) or

We can say to N-mom "You don't like it?  Ok I guess you're right.  Here you have it."

or we can say to ourselves  "I don't care what she thinks. I like this dress and I'm buying it!"

or we can say out loud to N-mom  "Ya know, you are always focusing on yourself?  What did I say that made you think I was even PICTURING you in my dress?  I don't remember this being anything about YOU at the moment!"

now, what I'd say most likely is, " Oh, so you like this dress too?  Well I'm sure if you like it, it must be a really awesome dress."  (to the cashier)  "Please put this in a bag for me.  Thank you so much"  (and walk out of the door, dress under arm)

See, N's tend to project and deflect.  It's ALWAYS going to go back to what THEY LIKE, THEY WANT, THEY THINK, THEY KNOW, THEY ARE...the way I found that works to survive their self-centeredness, is to DEFLECT BACK...almost compliment their opinion but do YOUR OWN THING ANYWAY.

It works, it's not reacting in anger (which they LOVE), and you end up getting YOUR NEEDS MET.

~Laura

[gratitude28]

GREAT post, Laura. And VERY astute. Made me laugh- albeit wryly. You are so right - my expectations are still off... You'd think after all this time I would begin to "get it." Have you noticed too how strange Ns are about compliments???? This is kind of off subject, but has been nagging at me to post here for a long time... If someone walks into a room with a dress that is not quite right, for example (and especially if the person seems to know this) and N will comment on just the thing the person feels uncomfortable about. I have always tried to make people feel at ease - so in a case like that I might mention her great hairdo (if it was really nice). My mother, however, will zone in on that thing and be over-exuberant about it and it is so embarrassing.
I also wanted to note here about what you said, Ami, about them holding onto sanity by a thread. It is true. I wish I could pity her. I used to, but I am so damned sick of her now that I just don't anymore.
Thanks again all.
Love, Beth

[Ami]

Dear Beth,
   That cracks me up about" that they  know the one thing that a person is embarrassed about and zone in on it." My mother is a pro at that.                                                                 
. She had not seen my cousin for many years. My cousin has weight issues and is really sensitive about it. What did my mother do in the middle of the Thanksgiving dinner? She said that my cousin should go to Over Eaters Anonymous.. My cousin  started  crying  and ran out of the room. My mother said ? "If she can't take honesty,it is HER problem.
   Beth,I am trying to let the 'theory " that they are holding on to their sanity like a thread free me from all the hatred, bitterness,fear, pain and resentment that I have inside. Sometimes, I do well. Most times, I do not.
 Having NC helps me to see how very sick she is. She wants to take away any thread  of worth that I have and grind it down .
  Where I think that I am really wrong is that I look at other people and think that they are so lucky to have  mothers who were good to them and love them. This makes me dissatisfied with my life.
   I spend a lot of time wishing  for a loving mother and feeling. sometimes, that I will never get over the huge hole that is left.
                                                                                                   Love  Ami
 
 
     

[isittoolate]

Hi Beth

I never responded here but this phrase really struck me, as though I had written it

it's like hookers for me. I can SEE someone on the street pick up a john and STILL never believe that they go on to do what they do to get money.

There are many things in life that I will not believe until I see them, in real life, and even then I wonder if I am alive to be seeing these things.......??

Nowadays the special effects in movies are so realistic, yet I know it's a movie, yet for 9/11 as I watched, from Canada, it felt like a MOVIE, as it was beyond my belief that this could happen.

I think I might be a person who can go into denial about something as huge as 9/11, as I wasn't there to see it!

Love
Izzy

[gratitude28]

Ami,
Thank you for reminding me that I have a mother in law who is like a mother to me. I think I need to start focusing on that and be blessed that she came into my life. Do you know that my birthday was about two weeks ago. I had called my mother about 4 days before my bday for whatever reason. So she wailed, "Oh, and I was going to call you...." Of course she didn't She has called me twice in four years. The first time she complained how much it cost. The second time because she wanted to keep the Christmas present she had bought me. My mother in law; however, called me the whole time my husband was in Iraq and even for my birthday. You know, for many years I never called her even though we were close. I think she thought I didn't care. But in my mind, I felt I was being a nuisance by calling, because that is how my family always treated me.
Thanks once again Ami!!
Love, Beth