Author Topic: Law of the Jungle, Self-interest, Creating Trust  (Read 3488 times)

teartracks

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Law of the Jungle, Self-interest, Creating Trust
« on: June 15, 2007, 12:52:58 AM »
Hi,

'Law of the Jungle' defined:  
Everyone does what he thinks is in his own best interest all of the time.

Self-interest defined:  
A concern for one's own advantage and well-being.

Trust defined:
Assured reliance on the character, ability, strength, or truth of someone or something b: One in which confidence is placed.

If the preceding definitions are true, and our behavior mostly revolves around pursuing our own self interest,  how can we build trust with each other?

tt
« Last Edit: June 15, 2007, 01:09:48 AM by teartracks »

Hopalong

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Re: Law of the Jungle, Self-interest, Creating Trust
« Reply #1 on: June 15, 2007, 06:13:22 AM »
Hi TT,

It ain't necessarily so...it ain't black and white...

Primitive survival and self-interest are offset by altruistic and humanistic values that prompt us to care about each other and at times make sacrifices.

The stickler is the difference between trust and dependency. We can trust in the basic goodwill of most other people. We can't trust that we can fling our wounded, torn psyches in their laps and count on them to be able to bear the weight.

That's what comes out of my brain on too little sleep anyway...

Interesting question and thanks for posing it.

love
Hops
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Stormchild

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Re: Law of the Jungle, Self-interest, Creating Trust
« Reply #2 on: June 15, 2007, 10:06:52 AM »
Hi tracks

Simple. ;-).

Our problem, as a culture, is that we've totally lost sight of our real connectedness. We don't get up in the morning and think: I am grateful to the people who built this home, the people who dug out the foundations and poured the concrete and framed it and wired it and put up the walls and floors, who roofed it and put on the siding and installed the windows...

I am grateful to the trees and the minerals and the petroleum reserves that were used to frame and found and carpet and wire this home, and to manufacture all of the items that are part of it, all of the furniture and appliances...

I am grateful to every person and creature involved in the making of this home...

I am grateful to every creature, plant and animal, involved in the making of my morning meal; to the coffee plants, and the people who tend them, to the cows [or goats or soybeans] that provide the milk for my coffee, to the animals who have given up their lives or their freedom and their own young ones [eggs] so that I might eat...

I am grateful to the power plant and the resources that feed it, and the people who built it and serve and maintain it, the people who strung the wires...

I am grateful to the knitters, weavers and cutters, the tailors, those who have made the clothing I wear, the towels and washcloths that keep me clean...

I could go on for hours, and every now and then I do, but that's not what this post is about. Beyond this point, my prayers are between me and God.

We don't do this. Most of the time I don't either. Instead, we - including me - grumble as we pay our bills [instead of thinking about the people who will eat, buy medicine, pay their rent because of the check we send]. We shove in front of people at the checkout line [because we are always more important]. We take credit for work done by others. Or we waste our lives and love appeasing bullies, making excuses for them, ignoring the pain they inflict on everyone around us.

We slaughter one another in deserts [whether they are literal deserts such as Darfur or the MidEast, or psychological deserts such as Cabrini-Green and the South Bronx] instead of working together to make the deserts bloom...

Perhaps it's because I'm one eighth Native American [in spite of red-blond curls]. But I've always seen the connectedness at the heart of life, and thank God in spite of everything that's disrupted my own life, I can still see it if I make the effort...

... and it's the disruption, the corruption, of that connectedness that seems to me to be at the heart of most human problems, from abuse in families to abuse in workplaces to abuse of the environment.

It's not possible to be perfectly aware and perfectly connected all the time. We're human, we can't sustain anything for long, we tire, our attention flags, things happen.

But we do have a 'mantra', for it, if you like.

Thou shalt love the lord thy god with all thy heart and mind and strength, and thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.

A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast;

Not a sparrow, worth half a penny, can fall to the ground without our Father knowing it...

We didn't start out in a jungle. We started out in a garden...

((((((((((tracks))))))))))


 
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mudpuppy

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Re: Law of the Jungle, Self-interest, Creating Trust
« Reply #3 on: June 15, 2007, 06:08:46 PM »
It is not people of goodwill pursuing their self interest who erect the barriers to trust.

A normal person acting in good faith has incentive, from a self interest point of view, to act in a trustworthy manner by and large and to encourage it in others.

The sticking point is not self interest per se; its the predators among us who misuse the trust of others for their own selfish purposes. They are almost universally unhappy and live, not only destructive but self-destructive lives, so their selfishness is not the same as self interest. In many ways it is the opposite. They're just so goofy they misperceive them as one and the same.

And that is what screws it up for everyone else because we then have to protect ourselves from them when they disguise themselves as acting in good faith. And that is what makes it so tough to build trust with each other; we seldom know who are the sheep and who are out looking for a lamb chop for dinner. And the more mobile and transitory a society becomes the harder it is to discern.

mud
« Last Edit: June 15, 2007, 09:43:06 PM by mudpuppy »

Hopalong

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Re: Law of the Jungle, Self-interest, Creating Trust
« Reply #4 on: June 15, 2007, 11:28:31 PM »
Long as we got rams like you around, Mud, there's hope.

Hops
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Bella_French

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Re: Law of the Jungle, Self-interest, Creating Trust
« Reply #5 on: June 16, 2007, 05:52:51 AM »
 I think most people pursue self interest when it comes to basic survival and defense of what is important to them. But I also think people are basically loving and giving by nature when their needs are being taken care of, and when they are not being threatened.

The situatons I watch out for are where there are conflicts of interests, especially if it involves money, love, and survival. I would have have a hard time trusting someone who had opposing goals to my own in those situations, unless I knew that person's character extremely well.






 


Portia

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Re: Law of the Jungle, Self-interest, Creating Trust
« Reply #6 on: June 16, 2007, 06:36:23 PM »
Teartracks

how can we build trust with each other?

I could answer -
with what i think intellectually, logically,
philosophically,
from a practical viewpoint.

However,

all I can think of and have thought of saying since I read your question, and I've read it quite a few times, is:

what does Teartracks need/want here? It seems a skewed question, to me. But then maybe it's not a 'please help me understand' question, maybe it's a 'what do you think? show me your thoughts' question. So I'm caught on that.

teartracks

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Re: Law of the Jungle, Self-interest, Creating Trust
« Reply #7 on: June 16, 2007, 07:40:40 PM »



Hi Portia,

Skewed (twisted)?

I could answer -
with what i think intellectually, logically,
philosophically,
from a practical viewpoint.


I'll pose the question another way. 

Portia, do you trust anyone(s) and if you do what about them makes you trust them?  Then if you want to take it a little further, What is it in you that makes you trust them?

tt
tt

Ami

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Re: Law of the Jungle, Self-interest, Creating Trust
« Reply #8 on: June 16, 2007, 08:39:02 PM »
Dear TT,
    The topic of  trust is the next lesson which I have to learn, I think.When I had good sense of self and was centered, I trusted people as much as my intuition told me that I could. , What I thought was right usually superceded another person's opinion on something
    When I chose to trust my father over myself, I went in to a numb state and am just coming out of it(.He told me that my NPD mother was fine.)
 I think that a healthy way to "trust" is to trust yourself first. You probably know better what is right for you than another person does.
   I think that I am in the process of learning two lessons,now. One has to do with trust. The other with accepting that I am alone in the sense that all humans  are alone in  "Life ".
   I think that the two topics are related in the sense that if we truly accept that we are alone, then we will more easily realize that we must develop caretaking skills for ourselves. These skills would involve learning to trust ourselves..
   I am at the beginning of learning these lessons. I guess that they will be as hard as learning the others have been(HARD). However,it is well worth it because you get more peace as you get to know yourself better. When you face your inner truth,it hurts ,but in the end ,it brings greater rewards.                                                                       Love   Ami
No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.        Eleanor Roosevelt

Most of our problems come from losing contact with our instincts,with the age old wisdom stored within us.
   Carl Jung

Ami

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Re: Law of the Jungle, Self-interest, Creating Trust
« Reply #9 on: June 17, 2007, 07:53:29 AM »
This thread is in the back of my mind. I am trying to get the answers that I need where trust is concerned. I think that you have to trust yourself first. I think that if there is an issue between what you believe and another person believes that you have to go with "you".
   I think that trusting yourself first will put a lot of issues and problems in to their right place.
    I wish that I had already learned this lesson because I think that it is a BIG one and I am only on the first step of learning                               Love  Ami
No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.        Eleanor Roosevelt

Most of our problems come from losing contact with our instincts,with the age old wisdom stored within us.
   Carl Jung

Portia

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Re: Law of the Jungle, Self-interest, Creating Trust
« Reply #10 on: June 18, 2007, 06:21:01 AM »
Hi Teartracks, thanks for your reply. This is what I thought.

Skewed/twisted – it seemed wrapped around itself. To me, altruism is an integral part of self-interest. No man is an island and all that. I don’t see compassion for the human race as a noble, spiritual or worthy thing: I see it as being human (and perhaps selfish).

If I think about what humans are doing, I might think that other animals would be more likely to survive, if humans weren’t here. But does it matter? Only from my human viewpoint it seems, and that’s a paradox I guess?


How can we build trust? Well I think we do it all the time. We have a word for ‘trust’, we use it fairly frequently I think and we all seem to know what we mean by it. So it exists, therefore building trust happens. How do we do it? It’s there to observe, it’s not unattainable, from a practical viewpoint.


Quote
Portia, do you trust anyone(s) and if you do what about them makes you trust them?
 

Trust is relative to me. Do I trust anyone – how? To save my life? Yes, I do trust at least one person to do that, if they are able. Do I trust my neighbour to tell the truth about what he had for dinner? Not necessarily. What makes me trust them? Their honesty and consistency. If they are consistently dishonest, I’ll trust that too.

Quote
Then if you want to take it a little further, What is it in you that makes you trust them?

My belief that my perceptions are in line with reality. When I find that my perceptions of reality have been badly wrong, the world shifts and cracks and becomes frightening. If I can’t trust my own perceptions and judgements, I can’t trust anything external. (However, I still trust the 'me' - whatever that is - that perceives that I have got it badly wrong. This is bedrock introvert stuff.) This fits in with what Ami is saying I think.

In the film ‘Blade Runner’, as the couple are about to go on the run together, he does not ask her: “do you love me?”. He asks her: “do you trust me?”. That’s such a great question, far more revealing than any question about love I think. If someone asks me that question, I really want to say “trust you about what?” but of course I don’t (most people I meet don’t seem to want or enjoy that level of intensity). I usually think: “yes I trust you - as much as I need to”, which says it all really. And I think we all do that.

I was reticent to post so much on this TT, because I feel that I can appear cold and detached in some of my views. All I can say to counter that (to appear more socialised perhaps, because I do need some approval and acceptance) is that I *think passionately* about this type of thing. I’d still say I’m philosophically pessimistic but psychologically optimistic.

Hopalong

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Re: Law of the Jungle, Self-interest, Creating Trust
« Reply #11 on: June 18, 2007, 01:30:38 PM »
Hi guys,

I think I have in the past mixed up trust with dependency because I was very lonely and in a lot of pain I hadn't learned the causes of. It went this way:

I trust you? Oh goody, that means I will fling my amputated octopus limbs around you, start squeezing and clamping, and then be utterly annihilated when you edge away, uncomfortable.

(This would be one good reason I've been single a long while now. I can't imagine doing the octopus routine again.)

I notice that as I age, I am more confident, generally. I pick on myself less. I pick on other people less. I'm less shocked by disappointments and I take them less personally. I forgive fast. And I also spread my needs for companionship and company around, so I never lean too hard on one person.

If I'm lucky enough to marry again, I believe I would never be hunting the sort of desperate fusion I wanted (or thought I wanted) before. I think it would actually feel nice to be two people walking around in their separate skins, finding delight when we come together for a laugh or for sex or touch or to make music and tell stories, but being happy on our own, preoccupied, too. I don't think I'd want so much from a companion, just a deep comfortable sense of company.

I belong to myself first now, and I feel less brittle about it. This may have been the gift within the problem all along...coming home for 8 searing years of caring for my Nmother, and several relationships with Nmen was like a passage through fire. It burned awfully, but now...I no longer feel that new relationships in my life will be travesties.

Maybe I was mud and now I'm a pot.

Pottily,
Hops
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."

mudpuppy

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Re: Law of the Jungle, Self-interest, Creating Trust
« Reply #12 on: June 18, 2007, 02:13:49 PM »
Hi Hops,

Quote
If I'm lucky enough to marry again, I believe I would never be hunting the sort of desperate fusion I wanted (or thought I wanted) before.

I don't think the fusion you speak of can be forced on an incompatible relationship. It occurs naturally from the joining of two compatible souls and it is the most wonderful thing that I know of.

Quote
Maybe I was mud and now I'm a pot.


I'm not entirely sure what this means, but I'm pretty sure I've just been insulted. :P :) :P

mud

Hopalong

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Re: Law of the Jungle, Self-interest, Creating Trust
« Reply #13 on: June 18, 2007, 02:52:33 PM »
Aww, Mud.
Your wife is a LUCKY LUCKY woman, warts and health problems and all.  :)

(Your friends are too.)

((((MUDSTER))))

Hops

PS--If I catch me a geezer, can I send him to you for inspection?
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."

mudpuppy

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Re: Law of the Jungle, Self-interest, Creating Trust
« Reply #14 on: June 18, 2007, 06:07:00 PM »
Hops,

Quote
Your wife is a LUCKY LUCKY woman, warts and health problems and all.


After close and thorough examination I have determined that my wife is a wart free zone.
Perhaps you were confusing a mudpuppy with a toad? :?  :P

Quote
PS--If I catch me a geezer, can I send him to you for inspection?

I am not actually licensed to perform geezer inspections and from the sound of it I have to say I'm very glad that I'm not.
If you catch one perhaps the discerning ladies here will give him a once over.

mud