What makes me do this?

[WRITE]

I am really sorry that so many of us have had difficult and negative experiences, we are vulnerable at church.

I pray anywhere but I had my best prayers over in England in the small chapels of cathedrals which I knew has been part of local life for centuries....on quiet days I would often sit there for hours, meditating and praying and soaking the peace.

I got to go back to Chester two years ago, I just love it.

Your experiences make me more resolved to challenge religious abuse as much as any other abuse.

[Lupita]

I was presbyterian all my life. In the presbyterian church you cannot go when you want, it is closed. Pastor has a key and secretary. When you want to go you are incomodating them, you are casuing problems, they say that their facilities are not for our own gratification. ONly for Sunday.
Now I do not know what I am. Lost. Going ot methodist because that is where I work, but this sunday I was there after I left my mother in the airport and first time going out after my surgery, and nobody asked me how I was. They asked ofr money, they did.
I was about to cry, nobody noticed it. I felt like a basket of trash. Nobody asked me how i felt.

[Lupita]

In one of her posts CB said she had problems in her church too. If I am not mistaken ReallyMe had problems with a pastor too. My ex-pastor gave me one of the most painful experiences in my life.
is it us? Are we prone to have problems in church? Do we defy authority because we dislike authority? Do we challenge them?
What do we do and why?

[reallyME]

I have a comment about this church situation.  It is the type of the church you are in.  Many churches are what is called "fundamental."  I spent many days in churches that were, and they have good points (accountability and keeping me on the right path), but also can get over into spiritual abuse (pastor controls every move you make).

It's all about deciding what YOU want in your life.  Some people believe that the church is just a building you go to on sundays or saturdays.  Some, want the church to have more of a "say" into their private lives, just as their family does.

For me, I like a happy medium.  I enjoy the accountability factor of small churches and fundamental ones, but I also enjoy being FREE to speak my mind and object to things that don't line up with my beliefs.

It's all about what you believe GOD would have you to do.  It's also about dealing with any of your triggers from the past that the church might be shooting you into by their dominant style.

~Laura

[WRITE]

It is the type of the church you are in.  Many churches are what is called "fundamental." 

hi Laura. How's it going?

I have been to some very basic or unusual belief situations where people have still been respectful and loving and especially so to 'outsiders' so I tend to believe the congregations where people engage in unpleasant or abusive behaviours contain leaders or members who want to act that way and thye find excuses within their faith to justify it.

Christian Fundamentalists often say people cannot really be 'Christians' unless they adhere to theses fundamental tennets of 'the church':

The virgin birth
Jesus as God or part of God
substitutionary atonement
The bodily resurrection of Jesus
The authenticity of Christ's miracles

some churches include the second coming.

The truth is that even within these sets of beliefs there are differences between churches and sects and cultures, right from the day of Jesus' life and death this has been so and the scientific era brought with it new ideas as the psychological and humane movements have and others will to come.

If the individual church is a good healthy place I believe that people are allowed a degree of individuality about their faith, and not forced to confirm or pretend in order to belong.

Even if one person's interpretation was 'the correct one' according to G_d, our faiths all develop differently, and I think sometimes in their zeal evangelistic leaders forget this. They can expect everyone to be falling on their knees before a blinding vision- when the reality may be a slow evolution of a consolidated faith over many years.

I believe the best church leaders know and understand that sensitivity is required to be 'fishers of men' not aggression or exclusion.

It's also about dealing with any of your triggers from the past that the church might be shooting you into by their dominant style.

in Europe now more and more guidelines are comign into place about what churches may or may not do and acceptable behaviour within law and guidelines. An organisation will ultimately not be able to call itself a religious institution if it is only for profit-gathering or has unacceptable practices.

And so it should be, enough people have suffered in the name of Jesus and the name of G_d.

I am becoming quite passionate about this as my faith has grown and my voice to speak up and say no to abuse.

Yelling 'there's an unbeliever' is certainly unacceptable. It is demeaning, pressurising and frightening.

There is so much abuse all around us that we become desensitised to that it becomes a norm and goes unrecognised and unchallenged!

[lighter]

Hi Lupita:

I think you should visit lots of churches, maybe when no one is there at first. 

The Episcopal church is where I go now, mainly bc they aren't elitist judgmental hypocrites, on the whole.

They also leave their churches open a lot of the time and I can go and just sit and sit and soak up the silence and grace I find there. 

They also usually have some sort of walking meditation path that you can enjoy and meditate with.  I like to walk them in my own way, which is fine.  Usually people walk them very slowly but, I twist a lot and enjoy economy of motion and balance. 

Anyone can worship and I find different people have completely different responses to the churches.  Some find them warm and welcoming and some find them cold and mean.  AT THE SAME CHURCH!  Maybe it comes down to who you're sitting next to and peeing with, lol?  There are nice people and meanies in all walks of life, including churches. 

Find one that suits you, if you want to go.  Me?  I want chanting monks if I have to attend a service but that isn't widely available here, lol. 

Relax.  Visit a church when it's empty and just sit and pray, open the bible to a random page and ask for guidance in your thoughts.  Listen.  Look around you.  Be mindful of the smells and the feelings you're experiencing.  Care for yourself and make little bitty payments on those medical bills as you can, more when possible. 

As long as you show intention to pay, they should be pretty patient with you.  Don't focus on the pressures and worries.  Focus on flossing or eating better or sitting in a book store perusing the self help section, then choose a book that speaks to you.  Put whipped cream on your coffee if you like that and do a face scrub with oatmeal.  Iron clean white pajamas and slip into clean crisp sheets with a good book and a cup of comfort, whatever you love to drink. 

You're gonna be OK, Lupita.

[reallyME]

The topic of church and beliefs has been a touchy one down through the ages, of course, but what I will say, is that, if you are looking for a church where they will have no rules, no male-dominance or pastor-dominance, you might want to venture into a Unitarian one.  They tend to welcome anything and everything there.  not for ME at all.  I like male-dominance to an extent, as I personally believe that men are more level-headed than the majority of women I've met in my life.

Any type of "christian" church is bound to have rules of some type that you don't like.  You are learning to be voice-ful, so of course you will not appreciate somewhere that it seems only the other person's voice is considered.

If I didn't feel so strongly about what I consider to be TRUTH, I'd be saying "to each his own" but I personally believe that God's creation and creatures, need to adhere to certain principles.  I suppose that kind of makes me a controller too.  Oh well...I'm someone who feels strongly about things that are part of me.

BLessya'll

[lighter]

Turns out I like taking communion if and when I do attend a church service. 

I don't think Unitarians do that and the Episcopal church has female clergy, and most have made the decision to accept gay clergy as well.  YAY for Episcopalians everywhere! 

I love the fact that they embrace everyone. 

I can't tolerate the whole male hierarchy elitist pig religions that subjugate the most vulnerable members, as a matter of course.  Not saying any church embraces that outright.... I'm just sayin. 

[WRITE]

if you are looking for a church where they will have no rules, no male-dominance or pastor-dominance, you might want to venture into a Unitarian one. 

remember my Unitarian abuse experience!

My point is that people can circumvent or use any teachings they want to do cruel or unhealthy things if that is in their nature and their intention!

I think if people lived their faith as in their relationship with the spirit then they would be like you Laura and not do harm, and do good.

It is not just the structures under which we operate, but our own useage of them which makes things good or bad.

John's gospel has this right at least: He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love........If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.

Love means we don't have to have all our own way, Christian love means following Jesus' teachings and adopting self-sacrifice.

Jesus didn't believe or teach half the things which people preach in his name though, and he was filled with love and told us to loev G_d and each other more than anything.

[JanetLG]

Reallyme,

At the risk of offending anyone, I'd like to comment on this bit:

"if you are looking for a church where they will have no rules, no male-dominance or pastor-dominance, you might want to venture into a Unitarian one.  They tend to welcome anything and everything there. "

I have been attending a Unitarian church for 6 months (in the UK - slightly different to UU churches in the US, but basically similar in outlook). I'd like to comment on the often-assumed idea that Unitairans have 'no rules' and allow 'anything'. That's not quite correct. Unitarians are broad-minded, and allow individuals to come to their own conclusions about what they believe, based on their own life experiences. Unitarians don't impose rules such as 'you must believe in the Resurrection' - some Unitarians believe in that anyway, but most don't. It's a private matter. Unitarian churches in the UK have a program of teaching called 'Building your own theology', where you discuss in groups what you believe, to work it out in your own mind, and then make a declaration about what you believe is right for you.

The bit about no male-dominance is correct - Unitarian churches have had female ministers for over 100 years. About half of the UK's ministers are women (not due to 'regulating' appointments or 'positive discrimination', it's just worked out like that). They have a very positive attitude to people of all sexual persuasions, and do civil partnership ceremonies, as they do marriages. The congregation is involved in decision-making, it isn't a top-down hierarchy. We don't do Communion.

Write, I don't know the details of what your 'Unitarian abuse experience' was. I'm sorry it happened whatever it was. People in any situation can be abusive. I don't mean to minimise your experience by writing this post, I just feel that what Unitarians stand for in general is often glossed over as 'well, they don't believe anything much, do they?' We do, it's just not talked about much!

Janet

[reallyME]

WRITE,

I did not remember that you were abused in a Unitarian church, but I am sorry that happened to you.

I was mentioning Unitarian, because, of all the churches I know of, they seem the least structured to me.

Janet, thank you for sharing the info about your church.  I still say that Unitarian is very open-minded...much more so than a fundamental church would be.

~Laura

[Overcomer]

I went to a church for 16 years and when I went through a divorce not one card or call.  It was my parents church so I set out to find a new one.  My mom told me if I was not going to in to their church she was not going to give me her blessing-in figure!  So I went many places and landed at a spect church-7000  members but awesome.  I also like the idea of hiding in a crowd while I feel out the hierarchy.  We do small groups for connection and I feel really good about it. 

[Overcomer]

go to their church      go figure                     great church

[Hopalong]

I'm a Unitarian Universalist...
I do love my church.

Hops

www.uua.org for an overview

[WRITE]

what happened to me was I went to a UU church when I was pretty vulnerable and got hit upon by this man who turned out not only to be married but he had women everywhere especially at church! That was horrible but it was when at some time later the minister and I talked in depth and she revealed he had this pattern with women there- being nice to them when they are vulnerable- and had hurt people before but there was nothing she could do because we were all consenting adults etc.

I just said you should have told me and she said would it have made any difference and I said absolutely!

But I left and didn't go there for a long time, then went back and healed things. That guy I talk to him now, albeit keep him at arms' length and another guy who was pretty mean to me is now my friend, and I have some very close friends who stayed in touch during the time I was sick and supported me after I left. When i say supported me- I had to accept they wouldn't take sides though at the time, which smarted a bit then!

I go back there occasionally now and it is one of the happiest places I go to, though it's not the faith place for me, because of all the love and healign which has taken place through what happened.

I've never done that before- gone back and set things straight; I never felt worthy somehow to impose myself. What I found though was that others were somewhat ashamed by their behaviour and willing to be friends. The guy who once sent me the most caustic email ( I shared it here I think ) is very affectionate but I am also careful not to trigger his boundaries.

No place is perfect of course, but they are executing a behaviour charter at that church now, and more rules.

I've been to tons of denominations in my life here and overseas, and they all believe slightly different things, the problems come when people have an agenda of their own or when they decide everyone must believe exactly what they're told etc.

That's not possible without a lot of compromise and potential abuse.

***

re women ministers, it is a shame some CHristian churches persist in the values of the first century; they were not Jesus' values.

But people become comfortable with what is customary even when it is wrong. Exclusivity and dominance is wrong. Abuse is abuse. We act like in liberal society these things are arbitrary but we choose them or to be part of them....

As Laura says some churches people like things done 'traditionally' but if all churches were male-dominated I believe the church would become obsolete; England has had to face exactly that issue and much of Europe.

***

I haven't heard back from our new minister yet.

***

Church guy took son and me music supply shopping, it was wonderful to see how playful and natural he was with my son, and how much my son appreciated that.

He so needs more male role models.

Son said afterwards he liked the guy 'but he's obviously gay...'!

***

Someone called me today and told me to increase my prices, you remember I said I am not quite charging enough to make the business viable, well he said I need to charge and extra $15 an hour!

Life is really opening up for me.

Love to everyone, hope your day is good.