Ns and their mothers

[Tokyojim]

Just as a general answer to Portia - In my memory, it seems pretty taboo to kiss a parent on the lips, same or opposite sex.  I used to kiss my parents on the cheek in greeting, or even in the air when briefly touching cheeks.  A couple of friends even said, "You kiss your father on the cheek?  That's disgusting!"  (I ignored them, but point that out to indicate people's feelings about limits on such contact with one's parents.)

I grew up around many Italian-Americans who are very demonstrative physically.  However, I never saw any lip kissing in families.

[Portia]

...

[bunny]

Tokyojim,

Your high school friend and his mother have a sick relationship. I doubt if he is an adult sexually. So it's hard to say whether he's gay, straight, or what. He is simply disturbed in all areas.

I think you tried your best to help him, but you really had no power over this situation at all.

bunny

[Tokyojim]

Bunny,

Thank you for your feedback.

I want to be very frank and honest when I post.  In doing so, I must say that I am still angry after all of these years.  It may be a male macho thing, but I am angry that he did not have the guts and fortitude to break away from his mother.  I look at him like a coward.  My mother doted excessively on my older brother; many do.  His reaction was a healthy one - he joined the military, connected to his girlfriend, got married and has been for over 30 years.

I UNDERSTAND that my N friend grew up with pathology and I should realize this.  My cerebral part says that.  But my guts, my heart, says: Have some courage, face life, be an adult!

I am now wrestling with the idea of never contacting him again.  Hard decision to make after 40 years, but this forum and my readings are making it clear that there will never be a "real" friendship, and his N behavior is getting worse since his "mommy" died.  The perverse and angry part of me is enjoying his deterioration and wants to watch him sink as he ages.  (He is deathly afraid of aging.)  Please do not come down hard on me, I just want to express feelings that I am wrestling with now.

[Anonymous]

I want to be very frank and honest when I post.  In doing so, I must say that I am still angry after all of these years.  It may be a male macho thing, but I am angry that he did not have the guts and fortitude to break away from his mother.  I look at him like a coward.  My mother doted excessively on my older brother; many do.  His reaction was a healthy one - he joined the military, connected to his girlfriend, got married and has been for over 30 years.

Tokyojim, these feelings are perfectly natural. Of course you feel disappointed and disgusted in him for being so weak, for choosing his sick mother over your friendship and over other healthy things. Nothing wrong with those feelings.

I UNDERSTAND that my N friend grew up with pathology and I should realize this.  My cerebral part says that.  But my guts, my heart, says: Have some courage, face life, be an adult!

I wonder if this thought is really meant for your parent(s)?

I am now wrestling with the idea of never contacting him again.  Hard decision to make after 40 years, but this forum and my readings are making it clear that there will never be a "real" friendship, and his N behavior is getting worse since his "mommy" died.  The perverse and angry part of me is enjoying his deterioration and wants to watch him sink as he ages.  (He is deathly afraid of aging.)  Please do not come down hard on me, I just want to express feelings that I am wrestling with now.

I think it's natural to get some satisfaction from the downfall of someone with whom we are extremely angry. I think you have a lot of ambivalence toward this guy. On one hand, rage that he disappointed and hurt you so deeply by choosing sickness and pathology over health. On the other hand, compassion and a continued curiosity about him. Pragmatically, I wouldn't contact him. It would lead down a road that I think you'd be happier not taking. Alternatively, I might explore with a therapist my continued curiosity and interest in this person. Because I think it's really a curiosity about yourself.

bunny

[Peanut]

Hi TokyoJim:  I've been reading with great interest your posts, but I'm just not getting a clear signal to come in somehow...

You said that your brother had a overly doting, (or something like that), mom, but he took a stand...  Do you have the same mom, and if so, how were you treated?

This is simply a question, because I'm new, and a little because of some of the things you seem to be saying...

Do you believe that you have some N traits?  Is that why your 'all-out' N friend so enrages you?  If not, why is who he is cause such an extreme, (my perception), reaction in you?

Your experiences with N's seem markedly different than others on here, as does your proximate relationship to the N in your life, (this is relative I know), yet your reactions are almost violent, (which, believe me, I understand that kind of rage, but...)...

I'm about 89.9% sure that my motivation for asking you these questions is with good intent, , but it's possible that I have been 10.1% triggered  in some way, so please allow for this in considering this reply, OK?

Best regards, Candle

[Anonymous]

Thank you Bunny!

Yes, it also troubles me that I maintain such curiosity and interest.  Since we were friends at such a young age, his psyche is probably part of mine and vice-versa.

I instinctively know that I must avoid this person.  Interactions do not lead to peace and enjoyment of daily life.  Thank you for your encouragement and insights.

I am not sure about your saying that there is a possibility that I am talking about my parents.  But there may be some good insight there.  I am sometimes still angry at my mother, even though she has been dead for over 35 years.  When she died, I felt "good riddance," and knew enough to fake sadness at her wake and funeral.  One part of me feels relaxed and normal, but another says that something must be wrong to not care when she died and to even be glad.

My father maybe should not have told me, but when I was maybe 30-35, he told me that she wanted an abortion with me and that he stopped her.  Of course, I did not know that as a child, but I always suspected that she did not love me or did not want me, even though she said so repeatedly.  I do not see N behaviors in my mother.  Rather, I think that she had an anxiety disorder.  Interesting that my father never used the word "love" with me, but I never doubted it from him.

[Tokyojim]

I am the "Guest" writer of the previous response.  Somehow I responded without registering.

Candle, I do not doubt any of your intentions and take no offense.  Please feel free to speak freely.

I have seen some N behaviors in myself and wrote about them on the thread "Confessions of someone infected" or the like.  And, about 35 years ago, I felt so much rage that I actually carried out something dangerous to him.  And I must emphasize, I am not such a person.  I used to box but gave it up because I did not have the heart to hit anyone hard.....

Anyway, I guess it is showing still.  I am too mature to carry out anything now, but that rage is not good for the spirit.  Thanks for the reminder.  I must rid myself of this poison.  It seems that two things will be necessary: Avoid him and learn more about myself.

[Wildflower]

Hi Tokyojim,

I’m really glad you found a place where you feel comfortable talking about your relationship with the N friend because I can tell from what you write that it’s been troubling you for a while.

I am not sure about your saying that there is a possibility that I am talking about my parents. But there may be some good insight there. I am sometimes still angry at my mother, even though she has been dead for over 35 years. When she died, I felt "good riddance," and knew enough to fake sadness at her wake and funeral. One part of me feels relaxed and normal, but another says that something must be wrong to not care when she died and to even be glad.

My father maybe should not have told me, but when I was maybe 30-35, he told me that she wanted an abortion with me and that he stopped her. Of course, I did not know that as a child, but I always suspected that she did not love me or did not want me, even though she said so repeatedly. I do not see N behaviors in my mother. Rather, I think that she had an anxiety disorder. Interesting that my father never used the word "love" with me, but I never doubted it from him.

These two paragraphs really spoke to me.  Sometimes, when I’m feeling good, I can look at my mom and say, “she didn’t know how to love me, she didn’t know who I was, and it was never personal”, and I let out a big sigh of relief.  When I’m feeling really low, though, these very same words make me feel so bad that I wonder whether I have a place on this earth, and that makes me so sad and angry and resentful and goodness knows what else.  The fact is, it’s terribly painful to feel unloved by anyone, especially our parents, and your mom doesn’t have to be an N for you to have been really hurt by her.  

Which brings me to my point.  It just popped into my head as I read your post, so forgive me if I’m waaaaay off base, but I wonder if coming to terms with the fact that this friend – a friend you’ve invested 40 years of your life into – can’t get better and be well for you is in any way a reminder of how your mother couldn’t really love you?

Just a thought.

Wildflower

[Tokyojim]

Thanks Wildflower, and there is of course, nothing to forgive for anything you write.  On the contrary, I thank you for reading my post and offering ideas or suggestions.

I do not think that was the case at all with the N "friend."  My thinking at that time was, "Mothers can cripple you.  Best to get away from them."

I was in counseling 3 years ago when contemplating a divorce after 23 years of marriage.  The counselor said that in choosing a partner, people mostly know only what they grew up with.  They invariably try to reproduce it or fix it in their choice of a spouse.

I had decided to get married, and we were on a trip to see my family.  She was writing some letters, and I fell asleep.  When I woke, I looked at her in a half-asleep state and saw something I will never forget: My mother who was healthy, normal and loving!  It was only a second or two, but that is what I saw.  Needless to say, she was (and is) a very stable person.  The only downside, I realized much later, was that there was no passion.  I suppose that I was afraid of any unpredictability.  I really wanted someone who would be stable and dependable and loyal.

[Anonymous]

Yes, it also troubles me that I maintain such curiosity and interest.  Since we were friends at such a young age, his psyche is probably part of mine and vice-versa.

Tokyojim, if people only maintained curiosity about nice, wonderful people, we would have no TV, no movies, no art, no literature. It would be pretty boring.

I am not sure about your saying that there is a possibility that I am talking about my parents.  But there may be some good insight there.  I am sometimes still angry at my mother, even though she has been dead for over 35 years.  When she died, I felt "good riddance," and knew enough to fake sadness at her wake and funeral.  One part of me feels relaxed and normal, but another says that something must be wrong to not care when she died and to even be glad.

Maybe you wanted her to grow up and be an adult. I see your feelings toward your mother as natural. There is a lot of ambivalence there, also. It doesn't make you "bad" or unnatural. She's the one who created an ambivalent mother-son relationship. If you felt "good riddance," she's the one who made it turn out that way.

My father maybe should not have told me, but when I was maybe 30-35, he told me that she wanted an abortion with me and that he stopped her.  Of course, I did not know that as a child, but I always suspected that she did not love me or did not want me, even though she said so repeatedly.  I do not see N behaviors in my mother.  Rather, I think that she had an anxiety disorder.  Interesting that my father never used the word "love" with me, but I never doubted it from him.

Well, your father should not have told you this. All it can do is make you feel terrible. Anyway, even if your mother wasn't narcissistic but only anxious, that still creates problems between mother and child. The good news is, you wanted to be more functional than your mother, and you are more functional.

bunny

[surf14]

HI Tokyojim;
   
  I'm sure if you had feelings towards your mother like you  do ie feeling a sense of  "good riddance" when she died that they are justified.  Its sad that you didn't have a meanaingful relationship with her; I'm sure she didn't bond or nurture adequately.
 
When I read your feelings about letting go of your relationship with your friend I felt as if I could feel your angst and conflict over this as clear as a bell over the cyberspace  airways.  I have had similar feelings in mulling over whether or not to let go of my relationship with my n mother.   Its almost as if in coming close to making the decision the drum roll begins and then I expected crashing cymbals as my anger and emotion led me closer to finally crossing that bridge.

I haven't cut her off tho relating is extremely  limited; I guess I found it was just not as easy as all that; more complicated because of the emotions and past history involved.  But even so I went in circles for days (more like weeks)  trying to figure out ways to salvage the relationship or  try for the millionth time to find a way to bring out a healthier side in her.  I mentioned in another post that I have a friend who is a mental health social worker who put it rather bluntly to me one day when he said "you're not going to win you know; she's crazy, you'll never win".   Succinct and to the point; yes I guess I was still trying to win by trying to find a way to protect myself and appeal to her sanity.  It won't work!

N's seem to have a way of hooking their families and people who care; it might have something to do with the occaisional lucid times (and I mean occaisional) that fuels hope  and keeps one coming back again and again and again hoping for a crumb of  caring and respect.  Isn't this a bit similar  to Pavlov's intermittant reinforecement which is the strongest form of reinforcement; perhaps in this sense these relationships  become addictive.  (much like the cycle of abuse in  abusive domestic relationships where the wife gets beaten and continues to forgive, returning over and over again hoping for a different outcome).

 You sound angry that your friend could just not grow up and show the kind of character you needed from him; I can relate to that very much.  He's let you down and I'm sure you've given a lot of yourself to the relationship  and he couldn't get it together  to remain on equal footing with you.  I wonder if you feel like he took something from you as well and that may be why its so hard to  let go?  I've had to face the fact that despite all my efforts some relationships fail and it isn't my fault.  (I'm still struggling a little with that since I tend to feel guilty if things don't go well all the time)   What  are you the most afraid of losing if you were to give up the relationship?  Does ego play into it or does it go beyond that?  

Thanks for  sharing this with all of us.                   Surf

[Anonymous]

and while I can't really imagine it, I wonder what would happen if he tried to have an honest conversation with his daughter instead of dropping hints and making changes without telling her what's going on.  Maybe a conversation about how he messed up and it's not her fault but that he'd like to make it up to her and try to have a normal father-daughter relationship with her?  I only say that because I know how I often jump to the the worst conclusion when I'm confused about something or don't understand why things have changed (he doesn't love me anymore, she's making him do this, blah blah blah).  It may be something that just takes time to change, but I thought I'd throw that out there in any case.

Wildflower

Yes you're right. I think this too. But he finds it so hard discuss even with me. I've suggested he give her the book to read.  He feels she couldn't cope with it, and it'd be too emabarrassing for her. Her behaviour is so lascivious with him. I tend to agree in some ways. Gee it's hard. And you're right when you say she must struggle with "Why won't he kiss me on the lips anymore, or look at me in my knickers, or let me rest my hand on his crotch?"     YYUUUUK!!!

Yes, she definitely blames me for all the changes she has to cope with, but heck, what was I supposed to do??? I have learned from a lot of reading that re-aligning the parent child relationship is hard in the best of environments, with the best of intentions on both sides! Add years of conflict, divorce, both parents re-marrying and having more kids, narcissisum, and emotional incest to the picture and you've got a nigh impossible predicament to deal with.

She probably wouldn't believe it if she knew how much my heart goes out her, poor girl, she's so messed up, thanks to her mother and my husband. It's so hard to see how screwed up we are, when our parents did such a fine job f#*#ing us up and distorting our vision and perceptions of reality.

And unfortunately, I have to add she has a very deadly sting in her tail, and has managed to influence her siblings negatively against both of us. Funny, they see nothing at all weird about the way she relates to her dad. Even though they themselves are very non-physical with him. They refer to her as "Dad's favourite." And often comment along the lines of "She can ask him for anything an he'll do it."

I don't think I will be the one to reach her, she's too threatened by me, and sees just about everything I do through black glasses. It'll have to be through her dad, or somebody else. But gosh it's tragic, what happened to her in her childhood. And of course, her dad wasn't 'meaning' to exploit her, he just used her up 'without meaning to', the BLOODY IDIOT.

Stupid Parents - can - be - so - f*#*ing - dangerous!!!!!

CG

[surf14]

P.S. Tokyojim;

The questions I posed at the end of my last post were for  clarification purposes; its not something you necessarily need to answer here.  Just wanted to add that  asI don't want to be too prying.   Thaks again for the thought provoking thread.  Surf

[Tokyojim]

Bunny

You mentioned that my feelings toward my mother as natural as a result of the parenting relationship.  I am certain that you are right.  What worries me is that there probably is some psychic damage from that, and I really do not see it myself.  Maybe I made a healthy adjustment to an unhealthy situation and should let it be, or maybe I should deal with something.

Surf,

In thinking about my friend, I can relate exactly to your statement about trying to “bring out the healthier side in her” (your mother).  Yes, and trying to win by finding a way to protect ourselves and appeal to their sanity.  But, as your social worker friend said, “we ain’t gonna win.”

Thank you for your statement, “angry that your friend could just not grow up and show the kind of character you needed from him.”  In all of these years, I have never looked at it in that fashion.  Yes, “character.”   I would have liked a friend who could be one in that true sense.  I am not sure of what I am most afraid of losing in giving up the relationship.  This is difficult…..  I think that I have put an incredible amount of time and effort into trying to get him to join the human race by getting out of his “mommy’s” house and working, traveling, studying, and/or having normal relationships with women.  I think that it is difficult to accept that all of that effort has been in vain, and that there is no hope of a friendship or normalcy.  During the last 2+ years, he has wanted to sell his house and “move on,” and this gave me hope.  I know something about real estate, having bought or sold houses 15 times.  I gave incredible amounts of encouragement and information to him, but I could see that his N behaviors were driving away clients and realtors.  Once, a real estate lawyer actually threw him out of his office and said to get someone else!  Of course, my N “friend” was convinced that the lawyer was inept and should be sued.  I knew an excellent realtor in the town.  He contacted her but…..  I happened to see her later, and she said diplomatically that things did not work out and she referred him to someone else.  He told me that she was incompetent and inflexible, and also that she kept contacting him because she obviously wanted to have sex with him!  I could go on and on, but that is the stuff I dealt with for the past 2+ years, and I finally stopped in frustration.

Thanks for listening…..  Unless a person has read about and dealt with a N, it is quite unbelieveable.