What do you do if you can't/don't 'trust'?

[rosencrantz]

OK - 'Not trusting' sounds like you've got a problem, right?  So the idea is 'to trust'.  And then to ignore all those little anxieties that keep cropping up.

And then we get confused - after all, isn't that my intuition telling me that there are some 'issues' here to resolve???

So you're rally smart and brave...You ask the other person :'Am I right about this?' And the person tells you that you don't know what you're talking about.  

So you go back to stage one. Trust.

Now, I've met people who really don't trust anyone.  It's like walking on eggshells ALL the time.  They really think you're out to get them.  Get one thing wrong and they never trust you again.  And they go off and sulk and won't/can't talk to you for days.  

So, if you don't 'trust', you'll be 'just like them' and you know full well that this 'walking on eggshells' type of behaviour isn't right, isn't healthy and demonstrates someone who has a problem with 'trust'.  

So you 'do the healthy thing' and you 'trust'.

But supposing you have good reason 'not to trust'.  

So...I don't know - I'm on a loop here and I don't know where to get off.  I can see that some of my issues with my mother are at play.  After all, as a small child, you're supposed to trust your mother, right?  If you think there's something not to trust   - wow, I'm in the loop already and I'm not finding the way out here.

Some people I do trust.  Absolutely, implicitly - whether I've just met them or known them a long time.  Some people, I can take either way.  Perhaps I just don't need to 'trust' them, they don't need me to 'trust' them.  I trust them as far as it goes.  Trust just isn't an issue.

Mostly I trust people from the outset but after a while there's a problem and I'll feel some kind of 'taken advantage of'.

My husband says I always have a problem with other people 'sooner or later'.  So that makes me feel anxious about trusting my senses.  But he 'deals' with people whereas I 'relate' to them.  

In general, I think I have a pattern of being very open and then becoming more reserved.  Partly it's because (I think) I don't know how give a friendship 'maintenance'.  Initial meeting is great - warm, welcoming, open.  But what comes next?  I just don't know what's too much and what's too little!  Perhaps this is something to do with boundaries.  I'm only OK with friendships where someone else is very active in maintaining contact or where I meet up with people at a central point (like this board!!!) - or where I pay people for services.  Outside that, I have no idea how to meet up with people I've met and liked.

Here are two examples.

A cleaning lady who spends most of her time chatting with me over a cup of coffee. Extremely miffed when I start being 'busy' and leaping off to do work (partly because I can't afford the time I keep spending chatting and so she'll get on and do some of the cleaning).  Am I the only person in the country who has a cleaner who takes a full sit-down coffee break in a two hour session - and will leave half an hour early saying 'won't stop for coffee today, got other things to do'!!!???    (I work at home)

My healer wants me to help her develop a website, doesn't mention payment and starts off my healing session talking about her website.  And then looks completely wiped out when I say I'd rather keep it separate.

Am I hurting them when/if I say I want to set up different boundaries after we've spent some time gradually getting more and more cosy.  So will they want to hit out and hurt me if I do??? (Mother issues again!)

I'm frightened of their 'power' over me if I make it 'really' clear.

I 'need' this cleaning lady - both her friendship and her skills!  I live in a small village and I don't want to have half the village turned against me before they've even met me!  She tells me all sorts of useful things.  I wouldn't mind paying her to be my village guide and paying someone else to clean!!  Heck, sometimes she's been as good as a therapist!  She knows all sorts of things about me and my mother and I don't feel threatened by that at all.

And my healer.  I intuited two things from her the moment I met her - one was her need for a friend (am I projecting?!) and her 'idea' that I needed 'her' solution to the challenges of being 'super sensitive'.  Re number 1 - that would be nice to test out once my healing is over; number 2 - actually, no.  Not in 'this' lifetime.  But if I share my intuition about anything, the gates come crashing down so I'm not about to raise this.  It might be professional nervousness/pride - or it might be complete denial.  But all the boundaries are getting severely confused.  

From the beginning, she kept telling me I can phone her at any time if my mother is a problem but that bothers me (dependency issues).  And she seems to want to do a lot of 'talking' even tho she's not trained as any kind of counsellor.  Sometimes it's really difficult to get her to do the aromotherapy/energy healing I go for!!  At one stage I hauled her back to 'my' reality and it knocked her for six.  I'm pretty sure she'll be an INFP/J - really hyper-sensitive so I need to take care.  But I'm beginning to be really concerned and wanting to put up some barriers/boundaries.  

How can I do that without creating some anger/hate which might reverberate in the healing sessions???  I already picked up a little 'swipe' at the end of the last session.  It's normal and natural to do that to readjust the 'ego' when it's wobbled a little. But I think she's already made one specific change in my energy patterns which suit 'her' reality rather than mine (not for any malevolent reason but I actually think she's coming from an 'I' perspective and not understanding how different an 'E's needs are!!!) so trust is a real big issue now.  And yes, I have tried to talk about to her about it but I'm not sure really where I got to.  Like therapy, it's a specialist subject, so how can we know when intuition is right???

I just have to share this - this whole subject area has caused me so much shame in the past - and I didn't even get a twinge!!!!!!!  
R

[write]

when we don't trust- we can turn it around.

Who don't we trust?

eg. for me
I don't trust my husband to follow through on the promise he made=
I don't trust myself to assert myself or accept the reality of the situation

It's ourselves we don't trust, to be able to honestly just be with ourselves or with others and accept or work though any discomfort which arises.

For sensitive people who can pick up instantaneously on others emotions and discomfort it is especially important to recognise this- because we are not only acting out on our own reactions but on theirs too.

And pretty often if we're open and honest with someone the relationship actually moves to a new deeper understanding, the closest friends are those we can mutually be the most honest- and therefore the most complete- with.

By mutually I mean that we also have to face any discomfort for us which arises, and accept that setting boundaries isn't just about us. We can't be healthy and take other people's power, we need to accept what they want too. Including if they reject us.

'm frightened of their 'power' over me if I make it 'really' clear.

= ?
I don't trust myself to be able to deal with that level of intimacy? maybe.
Only you can answer that, but it's definitely been the relationship issue for me, wanting intimacy- but only on my own terms ie. not intimacy at all!

Rejection is a word worth taking a look at too. Often I have felt rejected because the other person did not want the same outcome as me. If I am more open to what they do want though- it's never really been a rejection, just my interpretation of it as that because I could not accept the reality ( usually because I was acting out a previous wound or pain )

Take care.

[rosencrantz]

I know the Katie Byron stuff and I'm listening  - it's about taking responsibility for our own 'stuff' and not blaming the rest of the world for what happens in our lives.  But at the moment that's not connecting with what's 'bothering' me.  What's bothering me is my 'sanity' and just how insidious and damaging other people's anger can be.  As I said elsewhere, I think I need to take LESS responsibility and be more aware of what's really going on 'out there'!!!
 
I think, having ended up using the word 'boundaries' in my last post, it's clarified some of what concerns me.  In fact, it all sounded very simple after I'd written it down.  So the boundaries issue is a separate strand.  And sitting down to talk about things 'should' be simple.  But people get very angry when THEY feel rejected and defining boundaries MUST be a very rejecting thing to do - after all, suggesting that boundaries should be imposed says 'keep further out', doesn't it!!!
 
The fact is I know I don't trust myself.  And I know I don't trust (some) other people to be honest and 'upright'  - and I don't know if it's because they don't know themselves or don't want to admit their inner motivations or if my perceptions are wrong.  And, yes, I can't trust myself to deal with things in a way which will ensure a smooth outcome.  (But then, I simply can't control how other people choose to react, can I?)
 
And yes, I'm terrified of the consequences of rejection - the feeling of falling apart and the consequential loss of 'service' (mothering, cleaning therapy, healing) - or the consequential negative, violent, angry, harmful 'service'.   The feeling of falling apart is so great that I won't be able to cope with the loss of service or handle the negative service - I won't be able to 'protect' myself AND I will appear vulnerable  and cause myself even greater shame.
 
Some people reading this will understand how what we experience in our everyday life - or here on this board - is a microcosm of our experience as a child/the decisions we made as a child.  I am writing this with that awareness in mind.  I've been here before but I don't know how to unravel it.
 
Interestingly, there are several people on this board I have got to know - I know the 'essence' of 'who' they are - and I don't have any problem with their sense of reality.  I trust them.  They don't have the power to make me doubt my senses and they wouldn't want to - in fact, quite the opposite.  I don't believe I'm sensitive to the truth and they are refreshingly honest.  On the other hand, I'm not dependent on them in any way and perhaps they haven't challenged me - so perhaps it's not the same.
 
My husband hates me challenging people (I guess I mean : setting boundaries or being upfront with them - "don't rock the apple cart").  I feel undermined by him.  But he hasn't known until recently just how 'fragile' my grasp on reality can be.  I'm not even sure that's an appropriate way of putting it.  My grasp on reality is firmer than most UNTIL...somebody tries to mess with it. Then I fall down that terrible pit of shame again and actually want to shut myself up forever...

The logical conclusion has to be that my mother did indeed 'F' me up.  Yes, still struggling with this one.  Haven't I already sorted this out ten million times already?!!  But I'm still trying to keep my mind open to the fact that I could be 'oh so wrong' (and should be doing a Katie Byron on it to prove it's me who's mean-spirited enough to even consider that my kind and gentle mother's round the bend!).  But it's there in my life ALL the time.  I am easily terrorised by someone else's minutest rejection of my interpretation of the world.  Can anyone who has experienced 'crazy-making' in their childhood ever really get strong again???

Darn it - I DID get strong!!!!!!!  Until that 'b' therapist came crashing around in my 'garden' kicking over stones and smashing up the foundations of my home.  I think I'm going to go away and express some rage.  Not that it helps makes things better. Grrrrrrrrrrrr!  (Or am I somehow supposed to take responsibility for what he did, too!!!???  I had to shove tarpaulin over the damage and build a house on stilts to survive - that's what I'll take responsibility for!!!!!)
R

[write]

Hi R

I hear you,

sorry you had a bad experience with a therapist, that's the pits.

people get very angry when THEY feel rejected and defining boundaries MUST be a very rejecting thing to do

I personallydon't see defining boundaries as selfish or rejecting: they protect others if anything, so we can let people know 'hey, I can't handle this' etc.

The Byron Katie stuff is about letting things just be, accepting reality, falling into it.

Acceptance is the key to so much.
Years ago when I worked with heroin addicts the person was often in denial about the reality of their life, just couldn't accept that they had hit rock bottom & let things get so crazy. Once they accepted it they were free to work on recovery.

Maybe a few sessions with a good therapist to expunge the bad therapy?
Though if you're in the UK, maybe research it extensively, it's not the best place for therapy.

Take care.

[Peanut]

HI Rosencrantz:  Wow, I'll tell you what; I'm bowled over by how many of your words have struck huge chords with me, (on this and a couple of other threads that I have read so far).

In the recent post, you said:  "But people get very angry when THEY feel rejected and defining boundaries MUST be a very rejecting thing to do - after all, suggesting that boundaries should be imposed says 'keep further out', doesn't it!!!"

I lived this, as you did, believe me.  All of it.  Having to morph into whatever 'feeling/emotion' my Mother was having at that particular second; being required to 'get inside her head', (a scary proposition), for my very survival, and then respond accordingly... on and on...

And now, at 43, I'm JUST learning what boundaries are, and that they are something one should 'set', and all of those lovely things, and, absolutely, my tapes play just as you have described in your quote, but that's just it, it's the bullshit tapes from the past = all of it.

Screw them/her/him if they don't like it; I am not responsible for being the caretaker of someone elses feelings, even if I was a mind-reader and could actually (and accurately) divine them = screw that; I'm over it = how about you?

I know, not this easy - sigh.   Hang in there, ok?  Most sincerely, Peanut

[Portia]

R!

Mostly I trust people from the outset but after a while there's a problem and I'll feel some kind of 'taken advantage of'.

Um! My first impressions of people are often correct (he’s a user, she’s angry, she’s a busybody who will invade my privacy) but I bury them and give people ‘the benefit of the doubt’ – I don’t trust my intuition and I trust them! – and then, like you, there’s a problem when I let my true personality show and I feel taken advantage of. So now I make notes of my first impressions (workplace stuff) and re-read them! It works but I find far fewer people to ‘get on with’. Do I trust from the outset? No. Or yes, but like this: I trust you until I know you better!!! Ha ha. Hold on to that thought for yourself when you meet others. Well, ‘trust’ is not absolute...

My husband says I always have a problem with other people 'sooner or later'. So that makes me feel anxious about trusting my senses. But he 'deals' with people whereas I 'relate' to them.

Yup me too. Always looking for relationships, that’s me. OH just does the job, has the conversation, goes back to his own thoughts. He actually doesn’t read novels because he ‘doesn’t want to know, be influenced by, what other people have in their heads’. He accepts that ‘most people’ are approaching mental instability (those are obviously not his words). I always want some kind of connection and it usually hurts me. BUT in having a relationship I give little of myself and instead get people to unload onto me (aka Aunty Therapist) – those that aren’t unloading types, well it takes a longer time and it’s better for it but it can easily drift (because I don’t tend friendships either, after all, what have I got to offer?!)

Seems like there’s a fairly obvious comparison/connection for both of us here???

Some practical advice.

Heck, sometimes she's been as good as a therapist! She knows all sorts of things about me and my mother and I don't feel threatened by that at all.

Home truths time: she’s your cleaner. She should clean. If you make her your friend, she won’t be your cleaner any more. You crossed a boundary first perhaps? Ouch? Now you do have to take responsibility for your actions here! If you’ve reached this stage with your cleaner, you can’t now back off from the coffee times without making her feel taken advantage of? Maybe she thought she was earning her coffee by the chat? Etc etc I won’t go on coz I’m sure you see what I mean.

Sometimes it's really difficult to get her to do the aromotherapy/energy healing I go for!!

What’s happened here? This set up really bothers me and what worries me is how personal this service/relationship is – i.e. it means a lot to you. Don’t mix business with pleasure? It does make sense sometimes, only say business/personal. This is this lady’s business but she thinks you’re her friend (but is she yours?) now and I guess thinks you are giving her ideas etc out of goodwill. When you say, hang on, I’m not doing this just for you she might think “oh! I didn’t realise! Now I feel stupid!”.

Misunderstandings all round. In a way you have to treat both as business transactions – that is how the other parties see them – business first, ‘friendship’ second. It’s not to do with how you are – it’s how other people work….

Gosh I’ve never been so direct in my advice before!   Gulp….P

[Portia]

PS. Hey Bingo! Sometimes the fag break helps. Just pondered, what if I was your cleaner (in my old work mode)? I’d sit and listen and talk because you were employing me and I’d feel obligated to and then I’d go home and feel taken advantage of!!! Like my boss said, sorry, shouted, when I left (in a huge rumpus) ‘I thought you were my best friend!’ Ahhhhh no! I worked for you! I said ‘Did it ever occur to you that I didn’t want to listen all the time to your problems?’ and of course he said “you could have said so!” (Does this sound like two professionals at work? No. It was more complex.)

So I promise to myself never to let those particular boundaries get crossed (by me) again. I think of putting my hand up, palm outwards. Does this help?

[Anonymous]

Yes Portia, but you missed one thing. The only person who should mix business with pleasure is nymphomaniac prostitute.    Did I say that?    Sorry, how crude of me.

I wanted to say something about the safety and sanity thing Rosencrantz mentioned. I'm wondering if I've gotten confused about the purpose of setting boundaries. I don't get why in setting boundaries, it has to be flagged to the other person. If I'm learning to do it now, it must be  because it's something I never learned as a child. My parents must never have modelled these behaviours for me to learn, moderation and boundaries. And I've suffered at the hands of others and at the hands of my own ignorance.

So if I'm suffering because I'm not there yet (knowledge wise), do I have some obligation to let other people know? Do I owe it to others to tell them what I'm doing? This is especially tough for me, and I find that pretty scary. I so often find that the people I need to do this with, I've already been exploited by, so I've already shown my weak underbelly to them.

They've already found the chinks in my armour, and now I'm confirming it to them.   Duh.

And if I'm as f*#%ed up as I sometimes think I am, then I'm sure to stuff this up too. I can see myself, in Rosencrantz's T Rex suit, smashing around, saying to them "Excuse me, (CRASH) I'm just (CRASH) setting some boundaries (CRASH) here, so we'll (CRASH) all feel safer."

I don't know what I'd do with the cleaner, Rosencrantz. I used to have a bad habit of chatting to my staff on my dime, and after a while I realised I was robbing myself. Next time a lady who worked for me, whose company I particularly enjoyed, stopped me for a chat. I was prepared and said, "Sure, but can we do it after you've finished your shift. I too busy to talk at the moment." She lost interest immediately and that was it. She never left my employ over that, but fortunately it did help break the cycle I had created and was in.

I'm having a strange recollection of a scene out of 'The Lion in Winter' right about now. Boy, I love that movie. Peter O'Toole is the King, and he's talking with Philip from France. He basically claims victory in the negotiation and explains how by saying something like "I've told you nothing that's in my mind, and you've told me everything in your's. You've shared your strategy with me, and I haven't shared mine with you, so I've won!"

So far, the best I can manage in setting boundaries withsomeone who is or has taking advantage of me, is tell them nothing. They'll get no more from me about how I think. Be it correct or not, I feel more comfortable that way. I wouldn't flag my intentions at all, especially to people who I feel have managed to exploit me once already. I figure they don't need my help to work me out if they've already managed to take advantage of me once. Call me untrusting, that's okay.

If they can then get over it, and respect my change of pace and the request, whatever it is, I guess I can know they were genuine on that one. Then we go on to the next one, and so on. And maybe after a few of these mutual experiences I might begin to trust them. Who knows? Thanks for the oportunity to participate in this thought provoking thread.


Guest

[rosencrantz]

Hi Portia - Were you reading my screen as I was writing!!  

I'm so glad you posted before me - and I agree entirely.  I woz getting there!!!

First of all to Peanut : re Boundaries - yes, we need to set them and we need to set them inside ourselves very, very clearly.  We need to be clear what our aims are in setting boundaries.  And if you're faced with someone who won't listen, then you have to take strident, strong action to keep them out.  Agreed. Absolutely.  No hesitation.

But (and this reminds me of the discussion we had about being patronised) in the everyday hurly burly of rubbing along with the rest of the world, most people don't mean any 'harm' by overstepping the boundaries.  They intend friendship or seek friendship or at the very least 'mean well'.  They think eg that there's more for them available than we intended to offer.

But isn't it I who has given out the wrong messages to start with?  

I suppose it just means being ever vigilent and finding a way to say 'no' clearly at every moment they are overstepped so it doesn't reach a point of confrontation.  But that is wearing and exhausting.  Still, do it a few times and most 'normal' people should get the message.  I'm just wondering how to set the boundaries without alienating and disappointing normal everyday people in normal, everyday situations.

But I'm reaching a point where I suspect that the problem with setting boundaries lies within us and that once we are firm and confident in the boundaries we have chosen, we don't need to make quite such a fuss about them.  

Here you go, Portia....  

The biggest problems arise when I hand responsibility over to someone else. I 'assume' that other people will know where the boundaries lie.   But by the time I've figured out where THEY think the boundaries lie (and that it's different to mine), it's too late to change things without causing upset.

It's my fault, not theirs.  And therefore it's my job to extricate myself with the least harm done to the other.

BUT it occurs to me that I am also influenced by my fear that other people will turn into my mother and want more and more of me until there's nothing left 'of' me or 'for' me.  So I 'knock it on the head' before it all gets out of hand and I have to come out fighting.

And then there's the flip side, of course : I treat everybody equally and without favour so that my mother doesn't see me having a nice time with somebody else!!!  (NObody is good enough for MY daughter - meaning 'don't give yourself away to anyone but me - I require ALL of you'!!!)

Hi Portia - The concept of 'boundaries' has been a new one for me so perhaps in future I'll sort it out better from the beginning.  I'm definitely a mea culpa with the cleaner (the relationship is far more complicated than it's possible to describe here but think 'old retainer' and it might make more sense), the healer I'm not so sure about but I'll just have to 'take back the power' and either end the healing or end the 'friendship'.  You gave an interesting twist 'but is she yours'  - I think you put your finger on it.  There's just something 'not quite equal' here.    

I like this idea  

make notes of my first impressions

Wow!  I 'can't believe' someone who doesn't want to be influenced by others (but it sets up an Nalert about HIS parents.  In that context, sounds like a wise decision!  What didn't I think to do that!!!)

Yes, I recognise the comparison.

Oh yes, very direct.  A bossy ladybird, now!         Well done!    (I'm teasing!  You're being clear and assertive.  Were you being 'indirect' by asking lots of questions???  I like the clarity of hearing what you think - it gives me an opportunity to dis/agree!!     )
R

[Portia]

You said it Guest!
 

"Sure, but can we do it after you've finished your shift. I too busy to talk at the moment." She lost interest immediately and that was it.

She wasn't your friend, she worked for you and was happy to work for you - but didn't want to chat in her time. Good for you, well put and effective!

R, about the cleaner. I say keep her services at home, that's what she wants, to do the work and be paid (if she only works 1 and a half hours, pay for that, no more). What does she do the rest of the time? Can you suggest you take her for a coffee (is there a local cafe?) She might say no. In which case maybe you should go yourself, alone? But I just wonder if there's some way you can meet her and chat - outside your home, outside the business relationship? And if she doesn't want to....well, she's not a friend and to be honest, you might be best not sharing so much....small town (village?) and all. You ok with all this R? ...P

PS Ah! I see you are ok! Good! Thinking more along old retainer lines...

Back again. Old retainer: all I’m getting now is Mrs Danvers from ‘Rebecca’ and I want to run for the hills. Reminds me of a B&B we stayed in. Flamboyant older woman owner, big lady, big voice, colourful clothes – vacant eyes. When we arrived I knocked and after no answer, walked round the back – she was nude sunbathing, with the local air-sea rescue helicopter circling overhead. Anyway, she had a local lady who made breakfast etc. That local lady – spinster-like, small, angular, dressed in black – ran the place and ran rings around the owner. Her breakfasts were very pretty – kippers laced carefully with orange slices – but served stone-cold. We got out as fast as we could. And the local lady wasn’t pleased.

Ah Guest now I understand why you are still Guest but that’s ok. My OH taught me not to give so much away about myself – “others will use it against you” – and they did. Information/knowledge is power. Be careful who you share your power with! I agree with you about telling others what the boundaries are – no thanks, give them more power?

Here’s a thought R. How much do you know about Mrs Retainer’s life, thoughts etc? Or does she talk about other people, rather than herself?

PS Enjoyed the old joke Guest. Reminds me of the even older:
Masochist: “Hurt me”
Sadist: “No”              
(which has been beating about my head for a little while now.)

[rosencrantz]

And if I'm as f*#%ed up as I sometimes think I am, then I'm sure to stuff this up too. I can see myself, in Rosencrantz's T Rex suit, smashing around, saying to them "Excuse me, (CRASH) I'm just (CRASH) setting some boundaries (CRASH) here, so we'll (CRASH) all feel safer."

Thanks for the belly laugh!!      That's exactly IT!!!!!

My thought on the 'employee brush off' thing...I understand where you are coming from, Guest, but I don't think it demonstrated she wasn't interested in your friendship.  You stated the boundary and she heard.  If either of you had made further contact outside work that would have caused even more complicated boundaries.

I think it really does depend on 'who' you are setting boundaries with as to 'how' you can express and how you 'should' express it.  Maybe for those dangerous people in our lives, we should nver give them the ammunition to manipulate us further.

In everyday life, tho - I'm not sure about this but...are we perhaps always dealing with somebody else's 'child' when we want to set up boundaries???  I don't wanna play your game any more - I wanna play a new game or I wanna play by my rules.  And that's fair enough.  But, as adults - it doesn't seem quite right just to 'change the rules' without prior notice!?

So I guess my question is about 'how do you find the adult in yourself and - even more importantly -  in the other person in order to communicate this change'.  After all, if we've only just reached the adult conclusion, why expect them to be more adult than we are??!  I suppose my first thought was to 'protect' the child in the other person - but it is really a case of finding the adult in the other person.  I'm not sure I know how to do this but I'm learning it's OK to be 'equal' with yer 'averagely' normal person and just be 'honest' (once I've worked out what I really think and feel about it all).

Standing there telling my mother that she's my mother and I'm not her parent seemed to switch a switch somewhere for her.  It was completely straight.  Now she wants to be a parent again, I've just got to teach her that being my parent means more respect and less blame, less changing the goal posts, and less rewriting history to serve her own interests and less manipulation and

I think 'not in this lifestime' - I really have got better things to do with my life.  
R

[rosencrantz]

Portia - no, stop!  LOL  Nothing like that, honestly!!!!!  It's fine, really!!!     (When are you going to write that novel??!)  I love her to bits, I know her family inside out as well!!!  I think it fair to say I just had some difficulty in setting some boundaries 'mid-way'.  Whooooo - I've led a sheltered life - nothing as scary as you've seen!!    

And I REALLY like that joke about the sadist!  Goes right home to roost!!!

TTFN
R

[bunny]

rosencrantz, I am responding before reading any of the replies. So please forgive me if I repeat what others have said.

OK - 'Not trusting' sounds like you've got a problem, right?  So the idea is 'to trust'.  And then to ignore all those little anxieties that keep cropping up.

I have a different viewpoint. Trust has to be earned. I have a baseline hope that people are generally reliable. But they still have to be observed over time. And they should observe me over time.

So you're really smart and brave...You ask the other person :'Am I right about this?' And the person tells you that you don't know what you're talking about.

 

A person who replies, "You don't know what you're talking about" is being rather obnoxious. So I already wouldn't trust that person to give me reality checks! Maybe they can be trusted for something else, but not for that.

Now, I've met people who really don't trust anyone.  It's like walking on eggshells ALL the time.  They really think you're out to get them.  Get one thing wrong and they never trust you again.  And they go off and sulk and won't/can't talk to you for days.  

So, if you don't 'trust', you'll be 'just like them' and you know full well that this 'walking on eggshells' type of behaviour isn't right, isn't healthy and demonstrates someone who has a problem with 'trust'. .

I think this is a bit extreme. When you don't trust someone (probably for good reason), you are immediately being paranoid? I don't think so.
 

So you 'do the healthy thing' and you 'trust'.

Trusting is only healthy when there is good reason to invest one's trust. Blind trust isn't healthy, imo.

Mostly I trust people from the outset but after a while there's a problem and I'll feel some kind of 'taken advantage of'.

This is different. It's about not trusting your own judgment and ability to hold your own with others.

In general, I think I have a pattern of being very open and then becoming more reserved.  Partly it's because (I think) I don't know how give a friendship 'maintenance'.  Initial meeting is great - warm, welcoming, open.  But what comes next?  I just don't know what's too much and what's too little!  Perhaps this is something to do with boundaries.  I'm only OK with friendships where someone else is very active in maintaining contact or where I meet up with people at a central point (like this board!!!) - or where I pay people for services.  Outside that, I have no idea how to meet up with people I've met and liked.

I think you know how to get in touch with people (it isn't rocket science), but it's scary because they may take advantage of you.

Am I hurting them (cleaning lady & healer) when/if I say I want to set up different boundaries after we've spent some time gradually getting more and more cosy.  So will they want to hit out and hurt me if I do??? (Mother issues again!).

Both the cleaning lady and the healer are, as you point out, maternal figures. This causes confusion because you haven't quite separated their meagre power over you from your mother's power over you. If you can separate these people from your mother, if you can ascertain exactly how much injury they can realistically inflict on you should you stand up for yourself, you might get an idea of the next steps with them. I think you're afraid of some major retaliation/vengeance on their part. And it would probably be more like some guilt-tripping on their part, followed by their respecting you more. Remember that it's okay to command self-authority around other people so you don't become a doormat.

bunny

[bunny]

So I guess my question is about 'how do you find the adult in yourself and - even more importantly -  in the other person in order to communicate this change'.  After all, if we've only just reached the adult conclusion, why expect them to be more adult than we are??!  I suppose my first thought was to 'protect' the child in the other person - but it is really a case of finding the adult in the other person.  I'm not sure I know how to do this but I'm learning it's OK to be 'equal' with yer 'averagely' normal person and just be 'honest' (once I've worked out what I really think and feel about it all).

I think you're on the right track. I would definitely access the adult in myself to talk to someone about boundaries. It may be as simple as giving myself a pep talk to be a grownup for a few minutes. I don't try to find the adult in the other person. In fact, I would assume that I'm talking to a hurt child, not to the adult part of them. They may "grow up" during the conversation but likely they won't. I continue to be an adult, no matter what age they are. They will get it sooner or later. Maybe not the first time. And it's not fun or easy, but sometimes must be done.

bunny

[rosencrantz]

Dear bunny - thank you.  This must be your longest post ever.  And you are brilliant on the reality check!!!!!  An absolute true blue answer.  And entirely,  totally accurate. (Wry smile).

YOU are the final clue, the final key.

With all that's been coming up for me recently, I have a decision in my head.  It's quite a difficult one to describe emotionally but I think the words will be simple.


1.  I'll 'never' (probably) truly trust myself, my own impressions, my mind, my perceptions - and I accept that now.  That's what my mother did to the person I happen to be.  I know I'll always be very clued up on what's going on around me - and I can act on that - but I'll still have doubts when/if the chips are down.

2.  I can build a support system around me of people who are good on the reality check!  I don't need to be alone any more (in the jungle/no man's land).  Portia, Guest (CG), bunny and a few select others are the kind of people I'll be looking for.  

3.  I can ASK!!!!!  (You don't know what a breakthrough that is in my life generally - I describe myself as someone who can't 'ask' and spend  time helping other people who find it difficult to 'ask'!!!  There are whole books on it, you know!!!).

4.  I can discriminate.  I can choose who to believe.  I can choose who gets into my support network and I can choose those things on which I ask them to give me that reality check.  I don't have to treat everybody the same.  I know they have different experiences and different blind spots and I am finally 'allowed' to take that into account.

Isn't it exciting!!!

5.  I don't have to be quite so rigidly...upright...so you...can't...quite.....reach....me. Ooof! (Falls back down to earth with a clump!)

Can't think of anything else for now.  (Smiles broadly)
R