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What do you do if you can't/don't 'trust'?

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rosencrantz:
OK - 'Not trusting' sounds like you've got a problem, right?  So the idea is 'to trust'.  And then to ignore all those little anxieties that keep cropping up.

And then we get confused - after all, isn't that my intuition telling me that there are some 'issues' here to resolve???

So you're rally smart and brave...You ask the other person :'Am I right about this?' And the person tells you that you don't know what you're talking about.  

So you go back to stage one. Trust.

Now, I've met people who really don't trust anyone.  It's like walking on eggshells ALL the time.  They really think you're out to get them.  Get one thing wrong and they never trust you again.  And they go off and sulk and won't/can't talk to you for days.  

So, if you don't 'trust', you'll be 'just like them' and you know full well that this 'walking on eggshells' type of behaviour isn't right, isn't healthy and demonstrates someone who has a problem with 'trust'.  

So you 'do the healthy thing' and you 'trust'.

But supposing you have good reason 'not to trust'.  

So...I don't know - I'm on a loop here and I don't know where to get off.  I can see that some of my issues with my mother are at play.  After all, as a small child, you're supposed to trust your mother, right?  If you think there's something not to trust  :shock: - wow, I'm in the loop already and I'm not finding the way out here.

Some people I do trust.  Absolutely, implicitly - whether I've just met them or known them a long time.  Some people, I can take either way.  Perhaps I just don't need to 'trust' them, they don't need me to 'trust' them.  I trust them as far as it goes.  Trust just isn't an issue.

Mostly I trust people from the outset but after a while there's a problem and I'll feel some kind of 'taken advantage of'.

My husband says I always have a problem with other people 'sooner or later'.  So that makes me feel anxious about trusting my senses.  But he 'deals' with people whereas I 'relate' to them.  

In general, I think I have a pattern of being very open and then becoming more reserved.  Partly it's because (I think) I don't know how give a friendship 'maintenance'.  Initial meeting is great - warm, welcoming, open.  But what comes next?  I just don't know what's too much and what's too little!  Perhaps this is something to do with boundaries.  I'm only OK with friendships where someone else is very active in maintaining contact or where I meet up with people at a central point (like this board!!!) - or where I pay people for services.  Outside that, I have no idea how to meet up with people I've met and liked.

Here are two examples.

A cleaning lady who spends most of her time chatting with me over a cup of coffee. Extremely miffed when I start being 'busy' and leaping off to do work (partly because I can't afford the time I keep spending chatting and so she'll get on and do some of the cleaning).  Am I the only person in the country who has a cleaner who takes a full sit-down coffee break in a two hour session - and will leave half an hour early saying 'won't stop for coffee today, got other things to do'!!!???  :shock:  (I work at home)

My healer wants me to help her develop a website, doesn't mention payment and starts off my healing session talking about her website.  And then looks completely wiped out when I say I'd rather keep it separate.

Am I hurting them when/if I say I want to set up different boundaries after we've spent some time gradually getting more and more cosy.  So will they want to hit out and hurt me if I do??? (Mother issues again!)

I'm frightened of their 'power' over me if I make it 'really' clear.

I 'need' this cleaning lady - both her friendship and her skills!  I live in a small village and I don't want to have half the village turned against me before they've even met me!  She tells me all sorts of useful things.  I wouldn't mind paying her to be my village guide and paying someone else to clean!!  Heck, sometimes she's been as good as a therapist!  She knows all sorts of things about me and my mother and I don't feel threatened by that at all.

And my healer.  I intuited two things from her the moment I met her - one was her need for a friend (am I projecting?!) and her 'idea' that I needed 'her' solution to the challenges of being 'super sensitive'.  Re number 1 - that would be nice to test out once my healing is over; number 2 - actually, no.  Not in 'this' lifetime.  But if I share my intuition about anything, the gates come crashing down so I'm not about to raise this.  It might be professional nervousness/pride - or it might be complete denial.  But all the boundaries are getting severely confused.  

From the beginning, she kept telling me I can phone her at any time if my mother is a problem but that bothers me (dependency issues).  And she seems to want to do a lot of 'talking' even tho she's not trained as any kind of counsellor.  Sometimes it's really difficult to get her to do the aromotherapy/energy healing I go for!!  At one stage I hauled her back to 'my' reality and it knocked her for six.  I'm pretty sure she'll be an INFP/J - really hyper-sensitive so I need to take care.  But I'm beginning to be really concerned and wanting to put up some barriers/boundaries.  

How can I do that without creating some anger/hate which might reverberate in the healing sessions???  I already picked up a little 'swipe' at the end of the last session.  It's normal and natural to do that to readjust the 'ego' when it's wobbled a little. But I think she's already made one specific change in my energy patterns which suit 'her' reality rather than mine (not for any malevolent reason but I actually think she's coming from an 'I' perspective and not understanding how different an 'E's needs are!!!) so trust is a real big issue now.  And yes, I have tried to talk about to her about it but I'm not sure really where I got to.  Like therapy, it's a specialist subject, so how can we know when intuition is right???

I just have to share this - this whole subject area has caused me so much shame in the past - and I didn't even get a twinge!!!!!!!   :wink:
R

write:
when we don't trust- we can turn it around.

Who don't we trust?

eg. for me
I don't trust my husband to follow through on the promise he made=
I don't trust myself to assert myself or accept the reality of the situation

It's ourselves we don't trust, to be able to honestly just be with ourselves or with others and accept or work though any discomfort which arises.

For sensitive people who can pick up instantaneously on others emotions and discomfort it is especially important to recognise this- because we are not only acting out on our own reactions but on theirs too.

And pretty often if we're open and honest with someone the relationship actually moves to a new deeper understanding, the closest friends are those we can mutually be the most honest- and therefore the most complete- with.

By mutually I mean that we also have to face any discomfort for us which arises, and accept that setting boundaries isn't just about us. We can't be healthy and take other people's power, we need to accept what they want too. Including if they reject us.

'm frightened of their 'power' over me if I make it 'really' clear.

= ?
I don't trust myself to be able to deal with that level of intimacy? maybe.
Only you can answer that, but it's definitely been the relationship issue for me, wanting intimacy- but only on my own terms ie. not intimacy at all!

Rejection is a word worth taking a look at too. Often I have felt rejected because the other person did not want the same outcome as me. If I am more open to what they do want though- it's never really been a rejection, just my interpretation of it as that because I could not accept the reality ( usually because I was acting out a previous wound or pain )

Take care.

rosencrantz:
I know the Katie Byron stuff and I'm listening  - it's about taking responsibility for our own 'stuff' and not blaming the rest of the world for what happens in our lives.  But at the moment that's not connecting with what's 'bothering' me.  What's bothering me is my 'sanity' and just how insidious and damaging other people's anger can be.  As I said elsewhere, I think I need to take LESS responsibility and be more aware of what's really going on 'out there'!!!
 
I think, having ended up using the word 'boundaries' in my last post, it's clarified some of what concerns me.  In fact, it all sounded very simple after I'd written it down.  So the boundaries issue is a separate strand.  And sitting down to talk about things 'should' be simple.  But people get very angry when THEY feel rejected and defining boundaries MUST be a very rejecting thing to do - after all, suggesting that boundaries should be imposed says 'keep further out', doesn't it!!!
 
The fact is I know I don't trust myself.  And I know I don't trust (some) other people to be honest and 'upright'  - and I don't know if it's because they don't know themselves or don't want to admit their inner motivations or if my perceptions are wrong.  And, yes, I can't trust myself to deal with things in a way which will ensure a smooth outcome.  (But then, I simply can't control how other people choose to react, can I?)
 
And yes, I'm terrified of the consequences of rejection - the feeling of falling apart and the consequential loss of 'service' (mothering, cleaning therapy, healing) - or the consequential negative, violent, angry, harmful 'service'.   The feeling of falling apart is so great that I won't be able to cope with the loss of service or handle the negative service - I won't be able to 'protect' myself AND I will appear vulnerable  and cause myself even greater shame.
 
Some people reading this will understand how what we experience in our everyday life - or here on this board - is a microcosm of our experience as a child/the decisions we made as a child.  I am writing this with that awareness in mind.  I've been here before but I don't know how to unravel it.
 
Interestingly, there are several people on this board I have got to know - I know the 'essence' of 'who' they are - and I don't have any problem with their sense of reality.  I trust them.  They don't have the power to make me doubt my senses and they wouldn't want to - in fact, quite the opposite.  I don't believe I'm sensitive to the truth and they are refreshingly honest.  On the other hand, I'm not dependent on them in any way and perhaps they haven't challenged me - so perhaps it's not the same.
 
My husband hates me challenging people (I guess I mean : setting boundaries or being upfront with them - "don't rock the apple cart").  I feel undermined by him.  But he hasn't known until recently just how 'fragile' my grasp on reality can be.  I'm not even sure that's an appropriate way of putting it.  My grasp on reality is firmer than most UNTIL...somebody tries to mess with it. Then I fall down that terrible pit of shame again and actually want to shut myself up forever...

The logical conclusion has to be that my mother did indeed 'F' me up.  Yes, still struggling with this one.  Haven't I already sorted this out ten million times already?!!  But I'm still trying to keep my mind open to the fact that I could be 'oh so wrong' (and should be doing a Katie Byron on it to prove it's me who's mean-spirited enough to even consider that my kind and gentle mother's round the bend!).  But it's there in my life ALL the time.  I am easily terrorised by someone else's minutest rejection of my interpretation of the world.  Can anyone who has experienced 'crazy-making' in their childhood ever really get strong again???

Darn it - I DID get strong!!!!!!!  Until that 'b' therapist came crashing around in my 'garden' kicking over stones and smashing up the foundations of my home.  I think I'm going to go away and express some rage.  Not that it helps makes things better. Grrrrrrrrrrrr!  (Or am I somehow supposed to take responsibility for what he did, too!!!???  I had to shove tarpaulin over the damage and build a house on stilts to survive - that's what I'll take responsibility for!!!!!)
R

write:
Hi R

I hear you,

sorry you had a bad experience with a therapist, that's the pits.

people get very angry when THEY feel rejected and defining boundaries MUST be a very rejecting thing to do

I personallydon't see defining boundaries as selfish or rejecting: they protect others if anything, so we can let people know 'hey, I can't handle this' etc.

The Byron Katie stuff is about letting things just be, accepting reality, falling into it.

Acceptance is the key to so much.
Years ago when I worked with heroin addicts the person was often in denial about the reality of their life, just couldn't accept that they had hit rock bottom & let things get so crazy. Once they accepted it they were free to work on recovery.

Maybe a few sessions with a good therapist to expunge the bad therapy?
Though if you're in the UK, maybe research it extensively, it's not the best place for therapy.

Take care.

Peanut:
HI Rosencrantz:  Wow, I'll tell you what; I'm bowled over by how many of your words have struck huge chords with me, (on this and a couple of other threads that I have read so far).

In the recent post, you said:  "But people get very angry when THEY feel rejected and defining boundaries MUST be a very rejecting thing to do - after all, suggesting that boundaries should be imposed says 'keep further out', doesn't it!!!"

I lived this, as you did, believe me.  All of it.  Having to morph into whatever 'feeling/emotion' my Mother was having at that particular second; being required to 'get inside her head', (a scary proposition), for my very survival, and then respond accordingly... on and on...

And now, at 43, I'm JUST learning what boundaries are, and that they are something one should 'set', and all of those lovely things, and, absolutely, my tapes play just as you have described in your quote, but that's just it, it's the bullshit tapes from the past = all of it.

Screw them/her/him if they don't like it; I am not responsible for being the caretaker of someone elses feelings, even if I was a mind-reader and could actually (and accurately) divine them = screw that; I'm over it = how about you?

I know, not this easy - sigh.   Hang in there, ok?  Most sincerely, Peanut

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