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What do you do if you can't/don't 'trust'?

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Portia:
R! :D


--- Quote ---Mostly I trust people from the outset but after a while there's a problem and I'll feel some kind of 'taken advantage of'.
--- End quote ---

Um! My first impressions of people are often correct (he’s a user, she’s angry, she’s a busybody who will invade my privacy) but I bury them and give people ‘the benefit of the doubt’ – I don’t trust my intuition and I trust them! – and then, like you, there’s a problem when I let my true personality show and I feel taken advantage of. So now I make notes of my first impressions (workplace stuff) and re-read them! It works but I find far fewer people to ‘get on with’. Do I trust from the outset? No. Or yes, but like this: I trust you until I know you better!!! Ha ha. Hold on to that thought for yourself when you meet others. Well, ‘trust’ is not absolute...


--- Quote ---My husband says I always have a problem with other people 'sooner or later'. So that makes me feel anxious about trusting my senses. But he 'deals' with people whereas I 'relate' to them.
--- End quote ---

Yup me too. Always looking for relationships, that’s me. OH just does the job, has the conversation, goes back to his own thoughts. He actually doesn’t read novels because he ‘doesn’t want to know, be influenced by, what other people have in their heads’. He accepts that ‘most people’ are approaching mental instability (those are obviously not his words). I always want some kind of connection and it usually hurts me. BUT in having a relationship I give little of myself and instead get people to unload onto me (aka Aunty Therapist) – those that aren’t unloading types, well it takes a longer time and it’s better for it but it can easily drift (because I don’t tend friendships either, after all, what have I got to offer?!)

Seems like there’s a fairly obvious comparison/connection for both of us here???

Some practical advice.


--- Quote ---Heck, sometimes she's been as good as a therapist! She knows all sorts of things about me and my mother and I don't feel threatened by that at all.
--- End quote ---

Home truths time: she’s your cleaner. She should clean. If you make her your friend, she won’t be your cleaner any more. You crossed a boundary first perhaps? Ouch? Now you do have to take responsibility for your actions here! If you’ve reached this stage with your cleaner, you can’t now back off from the coffee times without making her feel taken advantage of? Maybe she thought she was earning her coffee by the chat? Etc etc I won’t go on coz I’m sure you see what I mean.


--- Quote ---Sometimes it's really difficult to get her to do the aromotherapy/energy healing I go for!!
--- End quote ---

What’s happened here? This set up really bothers me and what worries me is how personal this service/relationship is – i.e. it means a lot to you. Don’t mix business with pleasure? It does make sense sometimes, only say business/personal. This is this lady’s business but she thinks you’re her friend (but is she yours?) now and I guess thinks you are giving her ideas etc out of goodwill. When you say, hang on, I’m not doing this just for you she might think “oh! I didn’t realise! Now I feel stupid!”.

Misunderstandings all round. In a way you have to treat both as business transactions – that is how the other parties see them – business first, ‘friendship’ second. It’s not to do with how you are – it’s how other people work….

Gosh I’ve never been so direct in my advice before!  :o Gulp….P

Portia:
PS. Hey Bingo! Sometimes the fag break helps. Just pondered, what if I was your cleaner (in my old work mode)? I’d sit and listen and talk because you were employing me and I’d feel obligated to and then I’d go home and feel taken advantage of!!! Like my boss said, sorry, shouted, when I left (in a huge rumpus) ‘I thought you were my best friend!’ Ahhhhh no! I worked for you! I said ‘Did it ever occur to you that I didn’t want to listen all the time to your problems?’ and of course he said “you could have said so!” (Does this sound like two professionals at work? No. It was more complex.)

So I promise to myself never to let those particular boundaries get crossed (by me) again. I think of putting my hand up, palm outwards. Does this help?

Anonymous:
Yes Portia, but you missed one thing. The only person who should mix business with pleasure is nymphomaniac prostitute.  :shock:  Did I say that?  :oops:  Sorry, how crude of me.

I wanted to say something about the safety and sanity thing Rosencrantz mentioned. I'm wondering if I've gotten confused about the purpose of setting boundaries. I don't get why in setting boundaries, it has to be flagged to the other person. If I'm learning to do it now, it must be  because it's something I never learned as a child. My parents must never have modelled these behaviours for me to learn, moderation and boundaries. And I've suffered at the hands of others and at the hands of my own ignorance.

So if I'm suffering because I'm not there yet (knowledge wise), do I have some obligation to let other people know? Do I owe it to others to tell them what I'm doing? This is especially tough for me, and I find that pretty scary. I so often find that the people I need to do this with, I've already been exploited by, so I've already shown my weak underbelly to them.

They've already found the chinks in my armour, and now I'm confirming it to them.  :shock: Duh.

And if I'm as f*#%ed up as I sometimes think I am, then I'm sure to stuff this up too. I can see myself, in Rosencrantz's T Rex suit, smashing around, saying to them "Excuse me, (CRASH) I'm just (CRASH) setting some boundaries (CRASH) here, so we'll (CRASH) all feel safer."

I don't know what I'd do with the cleaner, Rosencrantz. I used to have a bad habit of chatting to my staff on my dime, and after a while I realised I was robbing myself. Next time a lady who worked for me, whose company I particularly enjoyed, stopped me for a chat. I was prepared and said, "Sure, but can we do it after you've finished your shift. I too busy to talk at the moment." She lost interest immediately and that was it. She never left my employ over that, but fortunately it did help break the cycle I had created and was in.

I'm having a strange recollection of a scene out of 'The Lion in Winter' right about now. Boy, I love that movie. Peter O'Toole is the King, and he's talking with Philip from France. He basically claims victory in the negotiation and explains how by saying something like "I've told you nothing that's in my mind, and you've told me everything in your's. You've shared your strategy with me, and I haven't shared mine with you, so I've won!"

So far, the best I can manage in setting boundaries withsomeone who is or has taking advantage of me, is tell them nothing. They'll get no more from me about how I think. Be it correct or not, I feel more comfortable that way. I wouldn't flag my intentions at all, especially to people who I feel have managed to exploit me once already. I figure they don't need my help to work me out if they've already managed to take advantage of me once. Call me untrusting, that's okay.

If they can then get over it, and respect my change of pace and the request, whatever it is, I guess I can know they were genuine on that one. Then we go on to the next one, and so on. And maybe after a few of these mutual experiences I might begin to trust them. Who knows? Thanks for the oportunity to participate in this thought provoking thread.


Guest

rosencrantz:
Hi Portia - Were you reading my screen as I was writing!!   :wink:

I'm so glad you posted before me - and I agree entirely.  I woz getting there!!! :-)

First of all to Peanut : re Boundaries - yes, we need to set them and we need to set them inside ourselves very, very clearly.  We need to be clear what our aims are in setting boundaries.  And if you're faced with someone who won't listen, then you have to take strident, strong action to keep them out.  Agreed. Absolutely.  No hesitation.

But (and this reminds me of the discussion we had about being patronised) in the everyday hurly burly of rubbing along with the rest of the world, most people don't mean any 'harm' by overstepping the boundaries.  They intend friendship or seek friendship or at the very least 'mean well'.  They think eg that there's more for them available than we intended to offer.

But isn't it I who has given out the wrong messages to start with?  

I suppose it just means being ever vigilent and finding a way to say 'no' clearly at every moment they are overstepped so it doesn't reach a point of confrontation.  But that is wearing and exhausting.  Still, do it a few times and most 'normal' people should get the message.  I'm just wondering how to set the boundaries without alienating and disappointing normal everyday people in normal, everyday situations.

But I'm reaching a point where I suspect that the problem with setting boundaries lies within us and that once we are firm and confident in the boundaries we have chosen, we don't need to make quite such a fuss about them.  

Here you go, Portia....  :wink:

The biggest problems arise when I hand responsibility over to someone else. I 'assume' that other people will know where the boundaries lie.   But by the time I've figured out where THEY think the boundaries lie (and that it's different to mine), it's too late to change things without causing upset.

It's my fault, not theirs.  And therefore it's my job to extricate myself with the least harm done to the other.

BUT it occurs to me that I am also influenced by my fear that other people will turn into my mother and want more and more of me until there's nothing left 'of' me or 'for' me.  So I 'knock it on the head' before it all gets out of hand and I have to come out fighting.

And then there's the flip side, of course : I treat everybody equally and without favour so that my mother doesn't see me having a nice time with somebody else!!!  (NObody is good enough for MY daughter - meaning 'don't give yourself away to anyone but me - I require ALL of you'!!!)

Hi Portia - The concept of 'boundaries' has been a new one for me so perhaps in future I'll sort it out better from the beginning.  I'm definitely a mea culpa with the cleaner (the relationship is far more complicated than it's possible to describe here but think 'old retainer' and it might make more sense), the healer I'm not so sure about but I'll just have to 'take back the power' and either end the healing or end the 'friendship'.  You gave an interesting twist 'but is she yours'  - I think you put your finger on it.  There's just something 'not quite equal' here.    

I like this idea  
--- Quote ---make notes of my first impressions
--- End quote ---


Wow!  I 'can't believe' someone who doesn't want to be influenced by others (but it sets up an Nalert about HIS parents.  In that context, sounds like a wise decision!  What didn't I think to do that!!!)

Yes, I recognise the comparison.

Oh yes, very direct.  A bossy ladybird, now!    :wink:  :lol:   Well done!  :D  (I'm teasing!  You're being clear and assertive.  Were you being 'indirect' by asking lots of questions???  I like the clarity of hearing what you think - it gives me an opportunity to dis/agree!!  :D  :wink: )
R

Portia:
You said it Guest!
 
--- Quote ---"Sure, but can we do it after you've finished your shift. I too busy to talk at the moment." She lost interest immediately and that was it.
--- End quote ---

She wasn't your friend, she worked for you and was happy to work for you - but didn't want to chat in her time. Good for you, well put and effective!

R, about the cleaner. I say keep her services at home, that's what she wants, to do the work and be paid (if she only works 1 and a half hours, pay for that, no more). What does she do the rest of the time? Can you suggest you take her for a coffee (is there a local cafe?) She might say no. In which case maybe you should go yourself, alone? But I just wonder if there's some way you can meet her and chat - outside your home, outside the business relationship? And if she doesn't want to....well, she's not a friend and to be honest, you might be best not sharing so much....small town (village?) and all. You ok with all this R? ...P

PS Ah! I see you are ok! Good! Thinking more along old retainer lines...

Back again. Old retainer: all I’m getting now is Mrs Danvers from ‘Rebecca’ and I want to run for the hills. Reminds me of a B&B we stayed in. Flamboyant older woman owner, big lady, big voice, colourful clothes – vacant eyes. When we arrived I knocked and after no answer, walked round the back – she was nude sunbathing, with the local air-sea rescue helicopter circling overhead. Anyway, she had a local lady who made breakfast etc. That local lady – spinster-like, small, angular, dressed in black – ran the place and ran rings around the owner. Her breakfasts were very pretty – kippers laced carefully with orange slices – but served stone-cold. We got out as fast as we could. And the local lady wasn’t pleased.

Ah Guest now I understand why you are still Guest but that’s ok. My OH taught me not to give so much away about myself – “others will use it against you” – and they did. Information/knowledge is power. Be careful who you share your power with! I agree with you about telling others what the boundaries are – no thanks, give them more power?

Here’s a thought R. How much do you know about Mrs Retainer’s life, thoughts etc? Or does she talk about other people, rather than herself?

PS Enjoyed the old joke Guest. Reminds me of the even older:
Masochist: “Hurt me”
Sadist: “No”              
(which has been beating about my head for a little while now.)

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