It's like, OMG...

[Peanut]

I have been on this site for hours reading and I just can't stop.

I have NEVER run into people who express these same feelings/experiences as I've had = I just can't believe it hardly...

I'm not a loon after all, (well, I am, but you probably know what I mean)...

I should have known that I wasn't the only one that experienced all of this stuff, (especially the N mother stuff)...

I'm not being very articulate...probably because I'm speechless at having found people who may actually understand...

I'm obviously overwhelmed, and grateful.

I very much look forward to interacting with you all more in the future.

Most sincerely, Peanut

[rosencrantz]

 I know the feeling Peanut!  Welcome!!!
R

[JustKathy]

Hi Peanut.

I too just recently found this place. I haven't done much posting, mainly lurking, but the comments that I've read have been SO helpful to me. I'm going through a difficult time right now, having recently cut ties with my "N" mother after 30+ years of abuse and control that was NEVER going to stop. It was a hard decision to make, but I believe I made the right choice. The torment had to stop.

My therapist (who is VERY knowledgeable on the subject) has given me a great deal of encouragement and advice through much of this, but it helps tremendously to hear from others who have experienced similar situations. Like you said . . . makes me realize that I'm NOT alone, and NOT crazy. I'm very glad to have found this place.

Kathy

[Peanut]

Thank you very much, R and Kathy, for the warm replies of welcome.  

Do you want to discuss your cut off from NMom, Kathy, or is the decision still too fresh, or...

The reason I ask is that....[hesitating....]...., I've had the experience of my Mom's suicide and the aftermath/dealing with the complex grief and all, and, I was wondering if you have explored, (actually I'm thinking that you probably have, but...), how you will feel/deal with the termination of the relationship over the long term....  <if you sense that I'm hedging & tippy-toeing, I am>.  

I have to go to the gym now, but I'll be back.    Warmest regards, Peanut

[Tokyojim]

I too, have found this site to be fantastic!

I can rarely speak with others about "my friend" the N, simply because people do not understand or find such conversation boring.

One colleague is a retired clinical psychologist who had a number of N clients.  She said that not a single one came because of NPD itself but rather because of comorbid problems (bipolar, drugs) or due to the results of N behavior - job losses, martial problems, etc.  In every case, she said there was no change in the N behavior itself.

I have found that people simply cannot believe the behaviors unless they have had personal contact with them and some study/information about the disorder.

[Tokyojim]

Poozybear,

You wrote that your therapist has much knowledge about NPD and has given you advice.  Can you relate any ideas that seem to be useful in dealing with NPDs in general?  I know it is very individual, but does your therapist think that one should accept the hopelessness of ever having a normal relationship with them?  Should they be completely avoided if possible?

Thanks for any info!

[rosencrantz]

Hi Peanut - I'm really sorry for the experience you have had of your mother's suicide.  I know someone who has experienced this.  All I can tell you is that I have the impression, years on from the event, that she is unmoved by it all and indifferent .  But anger is inevitable.  And guilt.  Briefly.  Troubled people leave trouble in their wake.

When I guessed my father was dying and I would have to 'face the family', I did some quick thinking : I decided that I had honoured my parents by 'getting out from under' and leading the best life I could. I'm still working on leading the best life I can.  And I'm proud to have achieved the little 'extra' that I've done on this board over the last year.  It was for the sake of my own mental and emotional survival so I had good motivation  

My mother will never understand what I've achieved.  Perhaps my father could.  He was just happy that I was happy.  Bless him wherever he is.  What a gift he gave me in his final days.

But mother - well, I will feel many things but, above all, I'll just be relieved when she's gone and I don't have to 'deal' with it all any more.  

You don't have to feel you must be careful what you share of your own experience.  I think that the fear of damaging others is the legacy our mothers left us.  Most of the 'victims' of narcissistic parents have already had to learn to be tougher than you might think.  We're the survivors, remember!    But, above all, do what feels right for you - and don't be afraid to speak out if anything seems overwhelming.  I know that's been my experience here.

Take care and good luck!
R

[JustKathy]

I'll try to address both questions that were posed to me . . . hope I don't ramble too much and that some of this makes sense and isn't all convoluted and weird.

First, Peanut, I'm REALLY sorry that you have had to deal with a suicide situation. I can see from your post that you now have some deeply complex emotions to deal with. I wouldn't know how to begin dealing with that one, as I don't know anyone who has been there. If anything, I've often wished that my mother WOULD die. Like Rosencrantz, I believe that I too will be "relieved" when she's gone. It sounds cruel, but nowhere near as cruel as the pain she's inflicted on me.

As for the long-term aspect of just distancing myself from my mother, it's been REALLY difficult for me to deal with the repercussions and have needed to increase my therapy sessions since this happened. This sort of ties in to Tokyojim's questions about therapy.

There are years worth of things that my therapist has told me, but one of the most important was getting me to realize that my mother would NEVER change. Ns don't change because they do not believe that they have a problem. In their world everyone else has the problem. So yes, she did say that I would have to accept the fact that I would never have a normal relationship with my mother, that it WAS a hopeless situation. She also felt that I would never have a normal relationship with anyone else in my family, as they are all completely dysfunctional thanks to M. That's another post (a LONG one).

Breaking ties with mother has not been easy. She has sent me countless letters and emails with various messages, all designed to push my buttons. I haven't replied to any of them as it would only give M what she wants  . . . me back in the game. This has been difficult on a good day. I can't help but feel that I brought this on myself, and keep telling my therapist that it would have been easier to just continue dealing with the situation as it had always been (to give a time reference, I'm 44). So the big important question that my therapist keeps posing to me is "What do you think you will gain by trying to continue a relationship with your family? What do you expect to get out of it?" The answer to the question is always the same: Nothing. I think this is the crux ofthe issue for me.

SO, her recommendation was and continues to be avoidance, at least as the best solution for me. My psychiatrist (whom I see for my anxiety meds) has also given me the same advice. This may not be the case for all Ns, but with my mother, her torment of me is like a game. If I play along and continue to engage her, then she has the control she wants. She has controlled me my entire life. Cutting her out of my life puts me back in control.

Like you said, all situations are individual, but those are just a few key points that have helped me. I hope some of it made sense. I have years of info floating around in my head . . . it's hard to summarize. I'm sure you know what I mean.

Kathy

[Peanut]

Hi Kathy:  Thank you for your condolences, and for being so honest and straightforward in your reply.

Believe me when I say, I TOTALLY respect the decision that you have made re:  your Mom.

I just wanted to offer this...  My Mom killed herself in 1995, and that event in many ways defines me to this day, (I'm 43     ).

Being near her made my skin crawl prior to her death.   After it, I buried my arms, hands, and face in the space from which they removed her dead body.

My experience has been that no matter how bad it was, (and I connect here with OMG = me, too, every other second, so...), I am, (gulp) my mother's daughter in that cosmic/ephemeral/primal, (my vocabulary is really failing me right now), sort of way, even though I've spent my life trying to be the complete  opposite of most things that she represented.

Does your T, or more importantly do you, not foresee any way that any of us can recreate/reparent ourselves in such a way that we can somehow maintain ourselves, our souls,  and our boundaries in contact with our N's, or is it just too toxic?  

For me, even with that experience, I've now ceased to communicate with my N brother, and, somehow, I seem numb to the possible ramifications for me if the same event ocurred again, (or his death in any way, actually), even though I know full well how it could be after...

So this is why my questions are not in any way to question, (re:  from some blk/wht, right or wrong perspective, but because I'm still living it, and...  well, you probably see what I'm saying.

Thanks for your patience in getting thru. this post, and your willingness to discuss this most sensitive issue.

Most sincerely, Peanut

[Peanut]

Hi again.  This isn't what I mean:  

"Does your T, or more importantly do you, not foresee any way that any of us can recreate/reparent ourselves in such a way that we can somehow maintain ourselves, our souls, and our boundaries in contact with our N's, or is it just too toxic?"

First, your reply makes it very clear that you are only speaking about your own experience, and are not generalizing to others; I'm the one who is trying to extrapolate.

I didn't just edit the sentence out, though, because I'm trying to be impeccable with what I'm trying to say, even if it comes out all screeewed up and backarsewards.

Here's the scoop.  In the group  that I went to after the suicide, (for 3 years), I would hear story after story of well-meaning codependants like me, taking the 'stand' so as not to further enable their loved one in their destructive behavior, only to have said same loved one end up dead by suicide.  

I remember being so angry that none of the codepency books ever write that last chapter, and I would watch the horror and anquish of the survivors over and over and over, and would hear stories comparable, though not so spot on as those here, to ours, and think,... well, I never formulated words for precisely what it is I thought...

Ok, I'm really sort of rambling now, so I'll close ....

[JustKathy]

Peanut,

I'm not totally following your post, so bear with me if this reply makes no sense to you.

I'd be lying if I said it has never crossed my mind that I might have regrets when my mother dies. At times I do think that I will feel guilty, but then, she's programmed me to feel that way. I also ask myself what the case would be if the situation was reversed and I died before my mother. Based on her reaction to other deaths in the family, I would say that she wouldn't give a rat's behind. If anything, she would probably perceive it as a victory. This is a woman who didn't bother to show up at my high school graduation, and came to my wedding under duress (and let everyone know it). I can't envision her putting flowers on my grave.

I've never given any thought to her being driven to suicide herself. She's not the type. She's the one who controls everybody, who is always in charge, always the winner. If anything, I could see her driving someone else in the family to it. Not me, because I've developed the strength to fight back, but my sister or even my father, both who have been SO emotionally weakened by her.

I've never talked to my therapist about reconnecting, or souls, or anything "deep." Right now the focus has been on my immediate pain and how to stop it. I guess I need to give the current situation some time before I move on to the next phase. It's only been four months since I broke contact with M, so feel like I need to see where it goes from here.

So far, no other family members have attempted to contact me since I distanced myself from M. They are all mother's puppets and it hurts big time that I love them and they apparently don't care what becomes of me. Right now I'm trying to sort through all the hurt. Maybe a year from now I'll have different feelings, and the focus of my therapy sessions will change. But in all honesty, the situation has been VERY toxic, so we may never reach that point.

[Wildflower]

Hi Peanut and Welcome  I LOVE your name.

I'm so sorry about your mom and her suicide - even if she did make your skin crawl before she died.  That must have been so, so difficult to sort through.

Here's the scoop. In the group that I went to after the suicide, (for 3 years), I would hear story after story of well-meaning codependants like me, taking the 'stand' so as not to further enable their loved one in their destructive behavior, only to have said same loved one end up dead by suicide.

I remember being so angry that none of the codepency books ever write that last chapter, and I would watch the horror and anquish of the survivors over and over and over, and would hear stories comparable, though not so spot on as those here, to ours, and think,... well, I never formulated words for precisely what it is I thought...

I never worry about suicide with my dad, but I do worry a bit about my mom at times.  I can't help wondering what the stories were like of the other people in the codependency group.  The one's who made a stand.  That's so sad.  When you say you were angry about those books never writing the last chapter, do you mean warning people not to take the last stand?  Or warning people how hard it would be to deal - and to be strong because it was inevitable?  Or something completely different?

Wildflower

[rosencrantz]

For what it's worth, when I get my knickers in a twist over it all,  my H just says : "The bottom line is that you're allergic to your mother." Think of it this way : would you eat or touch something that you know can give you an anaphylactic attack?????  

For Peanut : You are making choices to help yourself to health.  Good for you!  There are plenty of resources out there for our mothers to have tapped into as well.  Our mothers are responsible for themselves and their own outcome.  You are not responsible for your mother's choices.  And, as I have recently discovered, you need to get the parent/child thing the right way round : you have a right to 'be' the child - you should never have felt you had to take on the responsibility for being her parent!!!  

My own view on suicide is this : if someone chooses suicide, either she did it for peace from her own demons (in which case she has achieved what she wanted - you can find ways to let her rest in peace) or she did it as the final angry manipulative act to 'make' you feel whatever it is you are feeling about it all now.  OK - she won - what's next???

My posts reflect the decisions I've made over the years.  They may not 'fit' your own situation.  But I'll just share one more discovery.   'Being totally impeccable' sounds like one of those damaging legacies from our childhood.  Be totally impeccable with yourself - that's good.  But you can make choices about what you share and who with.  It may take time but you can certainly work your way through all this and move beyond.  Sometimes it's difficult, but please be kind to yourself in the process, if you can. (I wasn't!!)  

I hope you find some of this useful, either now or later. My understanding is that it's the Borderline parent who carries out suicide attempts so you may find what you are looking for in the 'Borderline'  literature.

Take care
R

[Peanut]

Thank you so much Kathy/Poozybear, Wildflower & R for your thoughtful replies.  

Kathy:  I totally appreciate what you have said.    

Wildflower:   Oh, gosh, I just forgot what I was going to say.       I need to go reread your reply to figure out where I dropped my stitch.  

Rosencrantz:  The 'impeccable with my word' concept is from the 'Four Agreements' - I'm just now giving it a test drive in the sense that I'm trying to say what I mean and really feel as opposed to always doing the 'nice' thing and saying what I think peaple want to hear.  I have to admit, it isn't always a comfortable fit.  

[Wildflower]

R, my shoulders stopped touching my ears when I read this...five times:

For Peanut : You are making choices to help yourself to health. Good for you! There are plenty of resources out there for our mothers to have tapped into as well. Our mothers are responsible for themselves and their own outcome.

I see myself in my mother.  I see her in me.  I see myself getting well, why can't she??  I won't abandon her, but...

The difference between us that makes me happy and learning to love life and the people in it and her wallowing and falling deeper, deeper down is that I chose to lift myself out.  I chose to get better.  I looked at all the work ahead of me, and I pushed on.  She had a good dad, too, only it was her real dad who died when she was 13.  I share links with her, books with her, ideas and thoughts with her.  Share?  I shout these things out into the void.  I chose to make a life for myself.  She chooses to be determined by her past.  That's the difference between getting well and staying sick.  And it has to come from inside.  And I can't get inside her to make her want to get better.

Thanks for saying that in way I could finally hear.    

Wildflower

P.S. - I try not to write when I'm at work, but this ...    Be back later.