Too Messy - Hold it in

[Certain Hope]

One of my daughters has memories of... just a little thing...?

Please forgive me for taking the long way around this story, but it all fits together in some way, I'm sure.

Yesterday she recalled to me the period of time when we lived near my
parents' home...
and during this time, her recollection is that she was sick "alot".
Well, I'm thinking that she remembers things this way because when she
would fall ill, it was nearly always on a holiday or special occasion.. or now, as I'm realizing,
during some trying time (and there were plenty).

Her first birthday - she and her older sisters had chickenpox; a couple
Christmases, some virus or ear infection along with a fever; but nothing really
major or chronic... or so I thought.

But then she recalls that I went to this other town "alot" (the nearest real town
from there was 45 minutes in good weather, so traveling there was a major
ordeal, at least in wintertime). And I'm thinking.... alot?
I never went anywhere "alot", especially alone, without all of my children along for the ride.
I was living alone there with my 4 children, separated from my husband because he'd molested at least one of them.
And yet this is how she recalls it.

So now I'm wondering if this may have been during the period of time when I
was attempting joint counseling sessions with my ex-husband (her dad) with regard to
his issues of sexual abuse. That was a monthly visit for about half a year, out
of town, until I finally threw in the towel. Ex lived 200 miles away, but had to travel back toward the scene of his crimes
for court ordered counseling. My participation at my discretion (theoretically) and I went along because this counselor he had was so convinced that my ex was just "a good man who'd done some bad things". Hogwash.

And with all that, I'm thinking - 
sheesh, no wonder my little girl was sick at these times.
Although she was not the one directly abused by him, he certainly contaminated our whole family with his perversions.
But that's another story.

So -  the rest of us would take off, as she recalls, and she would be left with
her Grandma, my mother. (Now this was a rare event indeed, in my
memory. My mother is not one to want the kids around much. In fact, while
we lived just a few miles away, my Dad tried a few times to pick one or more
of them up and take them home with him to "her" house, but it was simply not worth
the struggle to him. She would be very angry and demonstrate that anger by
giving everyone the cold shoulder. Her plans/schedule/ways of doing things
are NOT to be disturbed.

So daughter's recollections must be of the times of these counseling visits,
when I was being encouraged to allow my kids' dad to have restored contact
with them (no way). And now I see what I couldn't see at the time -
there was my little girl reacting to all of these circumstances by feeling sick - nauseous.
Left at her Grandma's house (which in and of itself may be enough to cause nausea)
to be "cared for"... and she feels like she's going to throw up. Often... sounds like every time!

And what does my mother do?
She makes her little granddaughter lie down on the bathroom floor at the open toilet -
for the entire day.
That floor is rock hard, ice cold, ceramic tile.
 At least she gave her a towel to lie on, eh? 
Wouldn't want her precious floors or furniture to get soiled.

I told my daughter how sorry I am for ever leaving her there. And I thanked
her for telling me. And I'd like to tell my mother a few things, but I'll have to let
God work my heart over before I'd best open my mouth.

Mostly I'm just thankful that my daughter found her grandmother's behaviour
odd... that she doesn't consider it "normal" to care about your stuff more than
about the people you're supposed to love.

Took me years to recognize just how wacked this outlook is.

 And also, I now understand why - in a lifetime - I've only vomited on a few
occasions...  mostly when drunk.
It's simply not acceptable.
Too messy.
Hold it in.
Phooey.

Thanks for listening.

[Ami]

WOW --- That must have been very, very hard to write. Thank you for  sharing that deep pain
    I think that the greatest gift you can give to your kids is honesty. They won't have to get distorted and suffer like we did if someone will confirm their reality. It sounds like you are honest with your children. You shall know the truth and the truth will make you free" is a promise. So,it will always work(IMO).
   Whatever the pains of her childhood, you can help her heal them ,now, with  'truth". I sure wish that ONE person in my life would have been honest with me.
   About your mother,she sounds like she was very self absorbed . Her "caring for things above a sick child sound  like an N. It shows that she did not have "normal" empathy.
  Did you see this before about her or is it "new". Did you just see it more deeply?
  .I am sorry that you are going through this pain. It will help your daughter to let her talk about it and just go over it until she doesn't need to anymore(IMO).
  You sound like you broke the N cycle with your kids. I did too. I was messed up ,but I always tried to make my actions match my feelings so they would not have to lie about what they saw with their own two eyes. That was the single most awful thing that I went through. Your eyes,emotions and body are telling you one thing .Your parents are telling you that it is not "there.' 
                                                                         Love    Ami
 

[isittoolate]

Hi CH,

What an interesting post!

I am very interestd in memories and am quite sure that many of us can remember an incident, but recount it in different ways. This goes along with how we can all have a different perception of something, while looking at the same thing.

I gather your mother is an N?

In my quest to straighten things out with my daughter, I noticed her memories from when very little vary somewhat from mine. Now in her adult state she still has her own memories and that puts a different spinn on the actual happening. This also makes me question MY memories as a young child, as to the exact truth of the situation (for my quest in straightening out myself). This then becomes somewhat of a problem if lives must go to Therapy.

I gather those who grew up happy and joyful have no need to look back and dissect the past.

xx
Izzy

[Hopalong]

That's a tragedy, Hope, I'm so sorry.
Thank heaven you're free of him, and you've arrested the harm.
I was thinking that for me, as a child, once a month if there was a lot of tension in the air, would've felt like "a lot".
Not that you could help that.

Do we ever free ourselves from blame when our children hurt?

It's wonderful that you and your daughter are so close that you talk about it, see things through.

Ami, I know what you mean. There's a big difference between a parent saying to you, "I'm surprised you remember it that way. It seemed this way to me" and telling you, "You didn't experience your life correctly."

Izz, I think the happy ones revisit childhood all the time for the joy of reliving it. How 'bout that. 

Hops

[isittoolate]

Izz, I think the happy ones revisit childhood all the time for the joy of reliving it. How 'bout that. 

Hops

yes Hops, for the joy of reliving it --for happiness...... not to dissect it to understand its meaning--re unhappiness.

Izzy

[Certain Hope]

Hello again,

I'm interested in the responses to this post because still, to this day, I often question what is "normal" and what is not.
And I thank you... those of you who've offered your perspectives and thoughts... because you've also offered me an opportunity to ask myself some more questions.

Ami, Thank you for your empathy. I think that the deep pain must be in the past.... contained in the not knowing and not being able to express what I couldn't identify. At least I don't feel that pain now... and so I'm guessing it was probably dispursed in the anger which I expressed (not to them directly) about my parents some years ago.
It seems that I've tended to exhaust my emotions before ever becoming acquainted enough with them to identify them individually.
Not a method I'd recommend, but that's how it was for me. And at this point, I feel strong enough to choose not to feel the pain again, in a different form. Maybe I could stir it all back up and try to process it more correctly, somehow... but I think that'd just keep me stuck in my mother's loop? Seems so to me. And really, I've accepted her for what she is. There was a season when I wanted to blame her for what I'd become... and for all the ways in which her influence and training made me susceptible to the really big N of my life... but what a waste of time at this point. No, I'm afraid that the only reason I'd have at this point to say a few words to her about this, would be to hurt her... to shake her up, at least... and why? Because maybe then she'd "change"?  She's 80 years old and has no direct impact on my family any more... so I guess my sympathy for her can afford to outweigh all the rest. I don't know.
This is nothing new... as you suggested, I just saw it more deeply - in living color - with someone else in the picture frame besides me.
What really impressed me is the matter-of-fact way in which my daughter recounted her memory. What brought it back to her mind was our recent visit to her oldest sister, who was hospitalized for an intestinal rupture (she's fine now). We were all there together, me sitting on the bed with my oldest daughter, visiting... and she recalled these times when she'd been ill - and how she'd been treated. No doubt the comparison startled her and helped her to connect some dots. Me, too.
And Ami, you said:
" I always tried to make my actions match my feelings so they would not have to lie about what they saw with their own two eyes. That was the single most awful thing that I went through. Your eyes,emotions and body are telling you one thing .Your parents are telling you that it is not "there.' " 

Yes, exactly. Me, too! Thank you for putting this into just the right words for my spirit to absorb. That's it... my goal then, now, and always... the heck with appearances - let's deal with what's really there in front of our noses!

Hi Izzy,

I definitely agree with you about the effects of individual perceptions on memories. As someone who seems to have spent a lifetime replacing memories with emotional trends (like mindsets, only in the realm of feelings), I don't have many concrete memories... just a sense of having going through the motions. Quite often still, I feel like that old fairy-tale character... newly awakened after many years of napping... or an amnesiac, unsure of where I've been... and even who I've been... and only now discovering who I actually may be.

No, I don't think my mother is NPD. She's not a pathological liar, but she does exhibit most of the other signs of N'ism.

I've talked with my 4 children quite alot about their individual memories of various phases of our family life. Each one tells a different story... which is natural, I suppose, since each one has a unique personality and perspective. We've all gained alot of insight by comparing notes in this way... and I think it's a wonderful method of drawing folks together, as long as nobody takes offense. As their mom, I've had one - for instance - recall a time when I "yelled" at her. Well, I've never been a yeller, so this didn't compute... but another daughter would say, "now Mom, it was your tone..."  and then we were all able to work toward understanding. It hasn't always been this way, but we've all grown up a great deal 

As for dissecting the past... I am certain that my mother didn't grow up happy and joyful, but that's the last thing she'd be willing to do.
Sometimes I wish she'd been willing... mighta changed alot in all of our lives. But she always said how awful she thought it was for people to go dredging back through their past to fix blame on their families. I think she was speaking for herself... that there were things in her upbringing that she realized had affected her so negatively... but she just couldn't bring herself to delve into those things. She had a sister who did dissect... and she was miserable, too... so no doubt that was a great influence on my mother.
But everyone's different. Personally, I am happy when someone in my family chooses to share some reflection from the past... bad or good. It's tough when it reflects poorly on me, but I'd rather have a chance to see it through their eyes than be stuck in my own perspective for a lifetime. My mother doesn't want anyone else's perspective... and that's her loss, imo.

Hi, Hops

Thank you for your sympathy. It's an old tragedy and one which sadly was proceeded by another tragedy - my brief marriage to Big N.
My method of arresting the harm was to fall into the arms of another lunatic, so I surely am not responsible for many good decisions in my life... other than my choice to report my kids' dad when my oldest daughter told me of his molestation.

I think you're right about the once per month seeming like "alot" to a child. I just don't remember being aware that she was sick during those times. It bothers me that I was so consumed with all this tragedy that her little illness was left on my mother's cold floor, you know?
I don't think that I'm to blame, but it does give me great determination to avoid getting caught up in any more whirlwinds which distract from what's really needful.

Thanks for the compliment about my relationship with my daughter... she's a neat girl, for a brainiac
My girls are 25, 20, and 16 now.
My son is 11. The relationships continue changing... 1 for the worse and 3 for the better, at this point. May I be so cavalier as to say,
"Ya can't win 'em all?"  Okay, I'll follow that up quickly with, "This too shall pass." Mostly I have tried to learn to say what I really think and then detach from the outcome (whether or not they'll take heed)... at least with the "adult" ones.

And finally... maybe my view is far too pessimistic, but I've noticed something about folks who seem to revisit childhood regularly for the joy of reliving it...
1) there's alot of denial goin on
or
2) they are toys r us kids

Whew, feels like I've written a book here. Thanks again to you all... it's helped to talk this through.

Hope

[bigalspal]

Hi CH,
My daughter is starting to remember alot of things, too. Not about her DAD abusing her, but my Nmother! I don't doubt it. She is like the grandma in your story. Cold, mean & selfish!
As you might have read in an earlier post of mine, my OTHER daughter has a chronic disease, & she brought her home to me one day. This was a 5 hr trip & my poor daughter had to be sick on the side of the road. My NMother (her grandmother) turned to her in the back seat & SLAPPED HER FOR NEEDEDING TO STOP!!! Oh, CS, when I found that out I had to be restrained! I was gonna HURT her!
When the daughter (who is doing the remembering) hears that she's called me,she tells ME to tell HER to "BURN IN HELL! Some grandma.
My NMOther's grandma was so sweet & nice that my daughters always thought of HER as their grandma. My NMother was always "napping". They had to be quiet! And, heaven forbid, they touched any of her stuff! Both my girls are in their 20's & to this day she NEVER asks about them. Of course, they never ask about HER either.
So, CS, I know what you are going through! I'm soooo sorry!
Love,
Bigalspal

[bigalspal]

Hi again, CH
I meant to say that my NMother's MOTHER not grandma was the one my girls consider "Grandma".
I just get so mad that I get to typing so fast & make mistakes. I think I even called you CS instead of CH. I'm sorry! The emotion is still so raw!
Love,
Bigalspal

[Certain Hope]

Hi Bigalspal,

I'm sorry that your girls have such bad memories to recall... and yet I think it's such a healthy thing to recognize what is good, loving behavior and what is not. Better to remember it now than to keep it stuffed away where its effects go on undetected.

Because my mother was not a screamer or slapper (or demonstrative in any way, positive or negative) alot of her nonsense went undetected (by me) for many years. Sometimes I actually wish that she had blown a fuse in a more outright way... at least then alot more of this rubbish might have been out in the open instead of shrouded in "keeping up appearances".  I always thought of her as mildly obsessive compulsive and... well... anal, but not abusive. That opinion has changed as more info sinks into my consciousness.

Anyhow, as long as your girls know that they didn't do anything to cause their grandma to react to them that way... that's the important thing, I think. And they had their great-grandma, it sounds like, to fill the traditional "grandma" role... that's how it was for us, too. My mother's mother was much sweeter and kinder to my children and I'm thankful that they got to know her a bit before she passed away.

My mother doesn't seem to want to know anything about her grandchildren except any accomplishments which might be useful to her for recounting. It's helpful to have some little litany to recite, just in case someone asks her how we're all doing, you know?     
Alll I can say is, she is missing alot by not making time to really get to know them... and so is your mom.

 We just recently spent a few days with her and my Dad, when we traveled to their area in conjunction with a trip to see my oldest daughter. Mother was in bed by 7:15 pm each night, according to her custom, and I don't think she exchanged more than 5 words with my kids the entire time. She can't make them sit on her kitchen floor to eat any more... they're too big. So I guess she has even less use for them these days.
At one point, I suggested that she go down and see my son, 11, playing a game on his sister's laptop. Silly me, I thought she might find that kinda neat... or at least be interested to see what he was doing (building a zoo).
A few minutes later I asked my son, "Well, did Grandma like your project that you're making?" He said, "It's hard to tell."   
I said, "I understand" and gave him a hug.
Such is life in N'ish-ville.

Good talkin with you, bigalspal 

[bigalspal]

Hi CH,
Good talking to you, too!
I guess we watched too much TV, huh? I bet they would never show our kids grandmothers in a sitcom!
Love,
Bigalspal

[Sela]

Hi CH, glad you are posting again.

Wow!  You sure have lived through a lot!  I'm sorry you had to go through all that.  It sounds like you've made a lot of peace with the past.

I think I did something similar by going over it all, years ago, and moving forward regardless of it.  I'm a bit like your mom, though, because I try not to/don't want to blame much on my FOO (and maybe I should?) because I believe so much is a choice (even when I was a child, I thought I made choices on how to deal with it all and they weren't half bad choices for a little kid!  ).  Anyway, to me, it doesn't much matter who's to blame.  I have the power to work on me and decide what to do about it now, and that's the biggest stuff, imo.

so I surely am not responsible for many good decisions in my life... other than

I bet you made a lot more good decisions/choices than you are giving yourself credit for!  Some of them may have been small, in comparison to other bigger ones but a whole wack of good small decisions can add up pretty close to a couple of bigger bad ones, maybe?  Ah.....allow yourself a mathematical break.  Didn't you make the most important//biggest choices/decisions.....in the end.....correctly?  That tips the good side of the scale!

Anyway, I just wanted to say hello and to agree with what bigalspal said.....that your mother is the real loser, when it comes to missing out on relationships/enjoyment with your wonderful children!  She loses the most and doesn't even know it.    Poor her.

Sela

[isittoolate]

I think it is this post that brought back memories that are just so wonderful. You must read as they will disappear when I am buried!

[Certain Hope]

((((((Bigalspal))))) Nope, life at home was definitely not like any sitcom I've ever seen! But my Dad (who, by the way, they used to call "Big Al", wouldya believe it?!) was pretty good at providing comic relief, on occasion.
I guess humor has always been one of his methods of coping with the constant undercurrent of passive aggressive fury which constantly. Actually, I do see some similarity between him (as Oscar) to my mother's portrayal of Felix, from the old "Odd Couple"... lol.
I'm thankful for that part of him which he passed on to me... and yet I do wish he had not let her rule the household as he always has.

Hi, Sela... and thank you for the welcome. When perimenopause isn't doing it's thing, I feel very peaceful, yes

There was a time, 7 years ago, when I went over it all, too... and moved forward regardless of it.
At least I thought that I was moving forward at the time.
But in actuality, my forward move was a leap from the frying pan into the flames.
That's when I married N.

You've said:   "I'm a bit like your mom, though, because I try not to/don't want to blame much on my FOO (and maybe I should?)
because I believe so much is a choice
(even when I was a child, I thought I made choices on how to deal with it all and they weren't half bad choices for a little kid!  )."


I don't think that anyone should blame his condition on another human being.. in most circumstances, that is.
One exception which immediately comes to mind is the deliberate transmission of a deadly disease, with the intent of murder.
In such a case, yes - I can see just cause for blame.

But with my mother, it seems that her line of thought goes as so -
 examination of a situation must result in someone being blamed.
It absolutely must be someone's fault.
Therefore she must not examine her own situation, because to admit that there's a problem would force her to face the fact that
a) She does not have total control
b) She just may be responsible for her own mess
 
She can place others under the microscope until the cows come home, but not herself.
She doesn't seem to have any concept of exploration for the sake of improving, revealing areas which may have a negative impact...or - gulp - changing.
Why change when you're perfect as can be?


So basically, my mother has no difficulty assigning blame to anyone but herself.
She is very proud of her own decisions... now if only the rest of the world would conform to them
She wears each bit of silent suffering as a badge of honor and loves to speak of the deprivation under which she was raised, due to the Great Depression.
Her pride in her own wisdom entitles her to apply her philosophy to others, as well... so that if she witnesses what she deems to be a person's failure (according to her definition of failure)
she attributes that to the individual's poor choice... and she is merciless in her judgement of them.
My mother feels that her success in this life is due to her well practiced methods of control and discriminating choices.
Because she allows no room for the grace of God in her own life, she extends no grace to others.
 
The way I feel about it... what I've experienced in my life is nothing nearly as sad as this graceless prison in which she's locked herself.

I appreciate your thoughts about tipping that scale, Sela, but the fact is - if I'd been allowed to suffer the consequences of my poor choices,
there's no doubt I'd be in the pit. Even my very best little choices were made for the wrong reasons, which more than cancels them out.
I'm only thankful that I'll not be judged on the basis of all that, because I'd be a goner for sure.

And yes, my mother has lost alot and I feel sorry for her about that, but I know that I don't have the power to change it.
Also I know that I can't hold onto blame against her because - if not for the grace of Christ - I'd be in her shoes right now.
So it's a constant battle, to uncover the old junk and get it out of the way, to make more room for the new.
For me it is not at all about assigning blame, but rather purging it out of the system so's not to be crippled by it all in dealings with my own family.
Nothing was ever discussed in my childhood or well into adulthood, so this place is a blessing, for such times as this




(((((((Grandma Izzy)))))) I'm so sorry you were dismissed. Please write more of your wonderful memories whenever you'd like and I'll read!



Hey Beaners   No, of course you are neither remiss or amiss... I've been awol -not been reading and only very rarely posting.
I had to stop because I ran out of answers. Good thing, too During that quiet spell, I realized it's okay to be devoid of answers
as long as ya know the One who's got them all.
So I'm the one who's out of it, so to speak... and yet, somehow, still in it.
Thank you for missing me!! That's so cool! I have missed you, too, and thought of you often.

And thank you for your sympathies.. although there's a part of me yet that rebels against the notion of my children bearing crosses, but
I know what you mean. I figure that awareness and acknowledgement is 9/10s of the battle and so I only pray that the effects will be translated into positive ones through open, honest discussion, authentic love,
and Jesus' healing touch. This I believe will happen. It's happening with me. Sure wish it'd come along faster, but then I've always been a late bloomer.

And thank you for this:  "She has a wonderful mommy and she's lucky, though"
Coming from you, that means the world to me.

Good news: I talk regularly now with my eldest. She just turned 25 For years, we were out of contact - mainly by my own obstinant choice. Hey, if I couldn't fix 'em, I didn't mess with 'em. But that was the old me.
She was very ill recently and required emergency surgery. Every maternal instinct in me reared it's lovely head and said, You must travel the 2,000 miles to be with her.
So we did. I didn't know I had it in me, Bean.. but there it was, still intact, and the most beautiful surprise I've ever experienced.
I don't have to be able to fix her... or anyone else. Only to love

I'm very glad you're here, Bean.

Love,
Hope

[mudpuppy]

Hey Hope,

Not much to add except it's great to see you here again.
I missed your wisdom.
BTW my wife found a cure for that perimenopause thing, but it has it's drawbacks. Do chemo for six months and you'll be right into menopause lickity split. (We can laugh about it now).

mud

[Certain Hope]

Hey Hope,

Not much to add except it's great to see you here again.
I missed your wisdom.
BTW my wife found a cure for that perimenopause thing, but it has it's drawbacks. Do chemo for six months and you'll be right into menopause lickity split. (We can laugh about it now).

mud

Hey, Mr. Mud... thanks! It's great to see you still in action. And I'm especially   glad that you and your wife can laugh together nowadays...
Praise God! 
Oh, and I hope that your N-dealings have become non-issues at this point!

Hope