What's best for a young child in this case?

[Sela]

Hi Hope,

Just looking in here now but wouldn't have had any idea of what to suggest anyhow.  I'd feel confused and torn in the same situation, I think.

At least now,  you and your daughter can both relax a little because the glass and phone thing and his emotional state don't sound like a good experience for your grand daughter.  I imagine that makes the decision much easier.

I will keep your family in my thoughts and prayers.  Wish I could offer more.

Sela

[debkor]

Hello Hope,

My exh did time in county jail along with the biggies too.  I personally do not think that it is a place for young children.
I went a few times and I hated it. It made me feel creepy and depressed. 

This is just my opinion.  I feel that he put himself there.  There were choices and this is one he made.  He took the chance, risk, whatever and he lost.  Not at my kids expense. 

I had choices also and it was not to bring my children there.  He would have to do his time alone. 

For his D's sake I think that there is nothing wrong with phone calls but I still get disgusted when I think of the jail (life) visits. 

I don't know Hope.  I just didn't want my kids to be on the phone behind glass looking at their dad in an orange jump suit.

My children did not go.  My children have no contact.  I stopped everything.  They are now 20 and 22 and well rounded.  Your GD will be just fine knowing dad is in jail even for what he did. 
It's going to come from mom on how well they will handle it. 

I was always honest they knew where he was and why.  I always believed that kids can handle more then you think they can and want honesty about what happened (on a child's level). 

It's a personal decision.

Just sharing with my experience.  One I didn't want my kids to share.  He was on his own with this. 

Deb. 

[debkor]

Hope,

And I forgot.  My kids were asked in school where their dad is. They asked me way before what they should say.  I said what do you want to say?  You didn't do anything. I didn't do anything.  If you want to say he's in jail, go right ahead.  If you don't want to then you say what you are comfortable with. 

They said he was in Calif.  When they got older 7th, 8th grade they told good friends the truth and you know what?  The other kids did not care and started telling their own hardships.

Your GrandD will be fine. Promise.

Deb

[Certain Hope]

First off, I apologize!

Dandylife, Pennyplant, CB...

 Not sure how it happened, but I'm definitely out of practice with reading these threads and I just now saw your posts here for the first time. Partly due to having the posts listed in reverse order, I think, with the newest at top.
Anyhow, I'm sorry - I appreciate your helpful views and am so glad to read them. Thank you!

Pennyplant,
what you said about not normalizing the "dad in jail" lifestyle...
I needed to hear and will definitely pass that on to my daughter. I just don't know how she will handle that part of it... she's so different from me and this sort of life has become so "natural" to her. She just sounds so very... coarse.
Even speaking with her on the phone, her talk is sprinkled with "curse words"... talk that we never had in our home. And yet she did spell out the word "jail" once when Elisia was in the vicinity. It's just... weird.
I suspect there's alot that's been normalized in her home that I'd find abnormal....   thank you, Pennyplant.

Bones, I sent you a pm with the name... and thank you again.
Normally I enjoy researching and Google is my favorite tool, but in this situation I am feeling a strong need to keep my distance.
It's as though I can report to my daughter giving her other peoples' views, but can't get personally invested.
There are many reasons for this, I know, but not one of them do I care to examine right now. My daughter is extremely N'ish... and I expect she'll do whatever is convenient for her at the moment. The fact that she and I are able to converse these days hasn't changed that a bit.

Sela, thanks for your thoughts and prayers.

Deb,
What you've expressed here is my own gut feeling, which I seem to be bound and determined to "rise above" so that I can remain neutral. I don't feel too neutral at the moment.
The whole idea disgusts me, too. I'm glad that you were able to exercise your own choices in the past and I have to say I think that I would have handled it the same way. It's wonderful to hear that your children were able to grow into well rounded young adults! Congratulations, Mom
In some ways I wish Elisia was a bit older, so that she could have more say about her feelings and wishes in this... and yet I'm glad she's young enough that it may not have so much impact (theoretically)... and all the while I think - the way he is, maybe it's best all the way around that he have no contact with her. None. I've been amazed throughout the past few years that my daughter has allowed him to continue his visitation...
but it's none of my business.
Thanks for this, Deb     "Your GrandD will be fine. Promise."
Holding that thought!

Love,
Hope

[mountainspring]

Hi Certain Hope,

I don't have any new advice but just wanted to tell you I think things will work out okay for your granddaughter.  Your daughter's idea of the phone card may work out well for now.  I think your granddaughter is lucky to have mom and grandma working hard to make sure she's okay.

((CH))

[pennyplant]

CH, I truly hope that your daughter is able to shield Elisia from the jail experience.  I'm in western New York and we have lots of prisons and jails here.  On the one hand, I think it is a life-line for these guys in jail when their families remember them with care packages and letters and visits.  On the other hand I am struck by the way this lifestyle becomes a culture and society all its own.  I don't know what the lacks are that would cause this lifestyle to be so "comforting" and affirming to the families.  Probably things I can't even comprehend from where I sit.  But it seems to offer a kind of structure that some people must not have in their lives.  It doesn't effect everybody this way.  But I would guess that a child might be one of the vulnerable ones.  Elisia should be spending time at the park or the movies or the library, not in a jail waiting room.  For some reason, I feel very strongly about this.  I know people who work in prisons and jails.  I handle mail headed to prisons and jails.  The clues I've picked up in this way have influenced my opinion, I guess.  I like how Deb has described how she handled things with her family and that her children have grown up strong and uninfluenced by the prison experience of their father.  That is the #1 goal here.

Pennyplant

[Certain Hope]

((((((Mountainspring))))) thanks. Just talking and thinking these things through a bit here on the board is helping me... and I think that my speaking to my daughter with some of the thoughts y'all have given here is helping her. I have a definite mental block when it comes to giving my daughter counsel on anything... kinda my little version of ptsd reaction from her wild and wooly teen years, I guess. All this is working together to ease that and help us build a relationship on fresh ground. I'd like to have a relationship with my granddaughter, too... can't quite imagine how that'll be possible at this point, but it's bittersweet to have her on my mind and heart now, more than ever.

Dear Pennyplant, I can visualize what you describe of this sub-culture, but I can't understand it either. Maybe this genre(?) forms as the families bond together sorta like military families do... just because of the common element, I dunno. It's definitely not a place (mentally or emotionally) where I'd want my family to get too cozy. I agree with you and appreciate so much your expressing your strong feelings on this... I'm finding it's a bit of vicarious enjoyment because I still have somewhat of a disconnect where my daughter and granddaughter are concerned. Afraid to feel too much, I think, because my daughter - all on her very own - is enough of a wildcard to bring confusion and disarray into my granddaughter's life. That's a hard truth which I cannot deny. Elisia is going to have enough hurdles just because of that.

When my daughter called me on Monday, she'd just received Elisia from her ex-in-laws' home, where E had spent the past 3 days.
That home, as I understand it, is basically a flop house for any and all derelict relatives to live in the basement and the in-laws themselves are "swingers". I've never met them.
E's face was swollen and my daughter thought - mumps? - and took her to the ER. Apparently she has a molar coming in and there was some infection in the salivary gland, so amoxicillin was the solution... she's okay now. But my daughter recently had some health issues of her own, for which she was hospitalized and required surgery, and now is on the mend. Her response to this recent "emergency" was -
"I don't need this now!!"     Same thing she said years ago when I called her to tell her that my grandmother had died. "I don't need this in MY life now."   Yeah huh... she's a character.

Love,
Hope 

[lighter]

I think the answer would have to be based on how involved the daddy is in his little girl's life.

Lots of children visit their fathers in prison, unfortunately.

If this guy's a bad guy, doesn't care about his child and would provide no positive influence.... I don't see why dragging her to the prison would be a good idea,  kwim?

[Certain Hope]

Hi...

Thank you, Lighter...  and sorry, I've been delinquent here. Too many irons in the fire, I think.

I should have posted back and let everyone know - Bones did some research on this for me and discovered that this small county jail where Elisia's dad will be incarcerated does not allow visitors below the age of 14.

They are quite close, from what my daughter says... she refers to Elisia as a "daddy's girl".
I am just hoping and praying that phone contact will help ease her concerns and... of course I hope that he will clean himself up and be able to turn over a new leaf. We're not sure yet whether or not addiction counseling will be mandatory in his case, but I sure would think that oughtta be an integral part of it!

Thanks again.

Love,
Hope

[lighter]

Gee.... I don't have enough information about visiting people in jail and prisons to know whether I should feel outraged (that children under 14 aren't given the opportunity visit their parents) or feel blessed that some horrific option has been taken off the table.

On one hand I'd think that a small county facility wouldn't be such a bad place to visit a beloved parent.  My heart sure goes out to your GD though.

[Certain Hope]

Gee.... I don't have enough information about visiting people in jail and prisons to know whether I should feel outraged (that children under 14 aren't given the opportunity visit their parents) or feel blessed that some horrific option has been taken off the table.

On one hand I'd think that a small county facility wouldn't be such a bad place to visit a beloved parent.  My heart sure goes out to your GD though.

I know what you mean! In all my efforts to remain neutral on this whole thing, I have flip-flopped more than a fish out of water.
But I was very, very relieved to hear that she won't have to see any of it up close and personal...
oh, for a chance to just be a kid!
Thanks again, Lighter.

Love,
Hope

[lighter]

Certain  Hope:

Was your ex N the father of your children.... or another marriage?  I'm having a bit of trouble keeping up.

[Certain Hope]

Certain  Hope:

Was your ex N the father of your children.... or another marriage?  I'm having a bit of trouble keeping up.

Lighter,

No, I had no children with ex-N. We were married for 3 years.
Before that, I was married for 15 years to my childrens' father. He cannot have any contact with them because he was guilty and convicted of criminal sexual conduct.

I have trouble keeping up, too.

Hope

[lighter]

Out of the frying pan and into the fire........... with an N.

My T keeps telling me everyone's lives aren't this hard.

I can't understand why some are and some aren't.

I'm about over blaming the victims, at least I'm over everyone finger pointing the victim bc it's easier and not so much trouble as holding the perps responsible.

You went through a terrible process in each of your divorces, no doubt.  You stood your ground and you did had to be done.

What got you through and what did you learn from the experiences?

If you don't mind my asking?

btw... I don't consider this highjacking since it's your thread and you seem to have solved the original dilemma; )

[Certain Hope]

Yes, into the fire... I was ripe for the picking, so to speak.

I don't understand why some are and others aren't either, Lighter... much of life is a mystery to me and I'm only now beginning to wake up with questions that I shoulda asked years ago.... seeing things I shoulda seen back then. Why didn't I?  I didn't know how.

I'll have to get back with you about how I fumbled my way through the divorces... at the moment, it all seems too surreal.
My own little directive right now is to "feel" these things as I express them, otherwise I'm just blowin hot air.
At the moment, I don't think I'm capable... but thank you for asking. It's something I need to walk through, with my fresh new awareness. Just not right now. I'm still in the parent-zone.

Thanks, Lighter... and no, it's not at all hijacking

Love,
Hope