intellectual vs. emotional responses

[lighter]

I'm talking about Guest101's ORIGINAL thread. THIS one we are now on. The first post.
Bigalspal

The posts Mud and I were referring to were from Overcomer's thread, ARE WE MENTALLY ILL? as follow:



guest101
Guest


   Re: Are we mentally ill?
« Reply #46 on: July 16, 2007, 05:49:57 PM »   

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mentally ill or not, violence arises when one feels that they have little or no other option to effectuate control over their own life.  IMO, those with dysfunctional  parents are more suseptible to becoming violent and/or abusive because of learned behavior and poor modeling coupled w/ feelings of hopelessness, low self-esteem, et cetera.





Does mental illness cause violence?

Mental illness plays no part in the majority of violent crimes committed in our society. The assumption that any and every mental illness carries with it an almost certain potential for violence has been proven wrong in many studies.

There is a relationship between violent behaviour and symptoms which cause the person to feel threatened and/or involve the overriding of personal control. Examples of these criteria include specific symptoms such as command hallucinations and feeling that one's mind is being dominated by outside forces.

Current research shows that people with major mental illness are 2.5 times more likely to be the victims of violence than other members of society. This most often occurs when such factors as poverty, transient lifestyle and substance use are present. Any of these factors make a person with mental illness more vulnerable to assault and the possibility of becoming violent in response.

Who is at risk?

The pattern of violence is remarkably similar whether a person is suffering with a mental illness or not. People with a mental illness, for instance, are no more likely than anyone else to harm strangers. Violent behaviour by anyone is generally aimed at family and friends, rather than strangers, and it happens in the home, not in public.

Typically, spouses, other intimates and other family members are the targets of violence committed by a person with mental illness. Most of this violence is committed by men and directed to women - as is the case in the population as a whole.

Factors affecting violence

The conditions which increase the risk of violence are the same whether a person has a mental illness or not. Throughout our society, alcohol and drug use are the prime contributors to violent behaviour.

Another important factor is a violent background. Individuals suffering from psychosis or neurological impairment who live in a stressful, unpredictable environment with little family or community support may be at increased risk for violent behaviour. The risk for family violence is related to, among other factors, low socioeconomic status, social stress, social isolation, poor self esteem and personality problems.


http://www.cmha.ca/bins/content_page.asp?cid=3-108
 
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guest101
Guest


   Re: Are we mentally ill?
« Reply #47 on: July 16, 2007, 06:01:38 PM »   

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P. S. for myself, I have a great amount of sympathy for anyone who feels so helpless and out of control that they resort to violence although I wouldn't tolerate that behavior from anyone in the least.  I've been both the abuser and the abused so I'm not prepared to condemn anyone for their choices - I don't see myself as "different" only fortunate.  All of us will resort to certain behaviors so long as we remain unaware that we have other choices. 

People who are in pain make painful choices and usually end up hurting themselves and those who are closest to them, whether it is as "grave" as murder or as "benign"  as hurtful words.  End Post





 



 
 
 

[bigalspal]

Hi Lighter,
I guess we got our wires crossed. I do see what you mean. That post does seem clinical.
Bigalspal

[guest101]

The quoted text from the Are We Mentally Ill thread does not include my P.S.:

P. S. for myself, I have a great amount of sympathy for anyone who feels so helpless and out of control that they resort to violence although I wouldn't tolerate that behavior from anyone in the least.  I've been both the abuser and the abused so I'm not prepared to condemn anyone for their choices - I don't see myself as "different" only fortunate.  All of us will resort to certain behaviors so long as we remain unaware that we have other choices.

People who are in pain make painful choices and usually end up hurting themselves and those who are closest to them, whether it is as "grave" as murder or as "benign"  as hurtful words.

But be that as it may, I don't have to be perfect to bring up a topic or mention something here, on this open forum. 

It is for this reason that I do not, and will never participate on this board as a active member-- copying an earlier post and accusing me with it just because I brought up a subject; it's not at all productive.

for those who were able to take something positive away from what I brought up, great  -- I am so happy for you.

for those who were not, maybe in the future you will -- or not.  we're all walking our own path at our own pace.

[guest101]

and also:

Email
   
   

Re: Are we mentally ill?
« Reply #53 on: July 16, 2007, 09:13:41 PM »
   

It's not about having control of one's own life so much as wanting control over another's.

Only a person who feels they have absolutely no control over their own life wants to control anothers life.

Anyone who seeks to hurt another does so because of their own internal pain, IMO

Christianity teaches us that there is no "big" or "little" sin.

I don't think anyone suffers abuse on a daily basis as a child and emerges mentally well.  Perhaps funtionally, capable and able but not "well".

I tried to reply with sympathy and understanding while also providing some factual information.  The topic was created as a way to look at how the board could function better and it some people did have the same concerns I had.  So I think it would be unfortunately if tthe introduction of this topic was taken negatively.

[bigalspal]

Hi again.
I appreciate how the nice folks on this board responded to my replies on Guest101's thread.
So far, I haven't felt like I've been attacked. But I'm going to be honest later on, so that might change.  I see not very many people have posted a reply to Guest101's thread. Maybe it's the weekend, or maybe poster's want this topic to go away. I felt that way at first. Then I thought It was better for me to enter the fray again.
Since I am, I feel I must clear up a misunderstanding.
I was not reacting to the abortion issues per se. This is what I was reacting to:

Do YOU think you are lucky to be alive, too??

my mother smoked and drank and was very neglectful and unpleasant, still- we all managed to be fed and clothed and schooled and to survive our childhood!

The abortion issue is another topic, and what a hateful thing to say to a child, but I am guessing that a person who chooses to have an abortion isn't equating it to the murder or neglect of a developed baby which has actually been born.

These are difficult topics and I hope they do not give pain to anyone who stumbles into these threads or whose lives have been touched by these issues.

OKAY, first of all, I felt the poster was minimizing my pain at having been told that. It's pretty harsh to suggest that I meant it that way. If a woman chooses to have an abortion, it's none of my business. But, don't you think I don't wonder EVERYDAY what it would've been like NOT to have been born? In my way of figuring, it might have been better TO have been aborted than live with the S##T I've had to live with for almost 50 years? Not asking for pity, just stating the facts. You don't know me! You don't know what I've been through! I was TRYING to tell you, but you sure cut me down to size before I had the chance to tell you. I didn't ask for medical jargon.I asked a simple question. Do you feel lucky to have survived? What part of that don't you understand?
What about that was offensive? Because I assure you I AM lucky to be alive. If my NMother could have gotten to an abortionist, I would NOT be. It's that simple. She meant it. And to me, that is worse than not being born. Because she did not make it. And I KNOW she did not make it.
KNOWING is WORSE. To me.
And the last statement about harming people who stumble across this board with this topic.
How about YOU?? I stumbled across this board. YOU hurt ME.
Here's something else I regret. Apologizing for being hurt by you! I told you I was sorry & then I minimized my own pain! Man, I got stuck in "it was all my fault" trap in a hurry.
You never directly told me it was ok. And I just kept on wimpering.
I feel I just have to say this. There's a lot of talk about people being able to say what the feel on this board. So I said it. I know I must live up to that as well, so feel free to bring it on. If I feel I can't handle it, or Dr Grossman feels I don't need to be here, well, I'll be OK. I know my stomach won't hurt anymore from holding this all inside.
Bigalspal

[lighter]

But be that as it may, I don't have to be perfect to bring up a topic or mention something here, on this open forum. 
Guest101

Oh the irony: /

[sally]

For me, the intellectual vs. the emotional is a chicken and egg issue.  I don’t want to be completely ruled by either and I need both.  Thoughts effect emotions and vice verse.

In my posts, I often mention Alice Miller and John Bradshaw and I feel that very few want to discuss their ideas.  But for me, I would not be able to understand why I feel the emotions that I feel without having read Miller, Bradshaw and others.

If I hadn’t read about Narcissism (an intellectual activity), I would still be walking around in an N fog, wondering why I feel so bad (my emotions).

So, I think both the intellectual and the emotional are important.  I don’t see the two as an “either/or”.

I understand Guest’s point.  For me, since I am not a therapist and since I grew up in an N household, sometimes I find it difficult to know what to say in response to a post.  Also, sometimes, I don’t have a lot of time to respond (let alone read the post), so I write something fast.

Also, I feel like this board is ganging upon Guest and scapegoating him/her.  OK, so maybe Guest said one thing and did the other, but, why not just point that out in a nice, compassionate way? 

Maybe Guest was unaware that he/she contradicted him/herself and by people pointing this out in a compassionate way, Guest could have learned something about him/herself.  I think we post here to enlighten ourselves, not to dump on each other.  So, why dump on Guest just because he/she contradicted him/herself? 

sally

[lighter]

I feel I just have to say this. There's a lot of talk about people being able to say what they feel on this board. So I said it. I know I must live up to that as well, so feel free to bring it on. If I feel I can't handle it, or Dr Grossman feels I don't need to be here, well, I'll be OK. I know my stomach won't hurt anymore from holding this all inside.
Bigalspal

((((Pal's tummy))))

I see this as a terrific learning experience for you and everyone on this board.  

As Shrek said....

"Better out than in, I always say, lol"

It's OK to speak your truth, that's what everyone here's learning to do; )  

[lighter]

Maybe Guest was unaware that he/she contradicted him/herself and by people pointing this out in a compassionate way, Guest could have learned something about him/herself.  I think we post here to enlighten ourselves, not to dump on each other.  So, why dump on Guest just because he/she contradicted him/herself? 

sally

I had hoped Guest101 would receive board responses in the same spirit she posted her OP. 

Can you please post an example of someone "dumping on" Guest? 

[sally]

I don't know what happened on Overcomer's thread and when I went to look for Guest's post, I couldn't find it.

BAP, I really sympathize with what you wrote here about your mom.  It's terrible.  ((((((((((BAP)))))))))))).  I'm so sorry you went thru that.

Lighter, I am not looking to pick a fight with you.  I enjoy your posts and you are very intelligent.  But, when you wrote "oh the irony", I think that was harsh, especially after Guest tried to explain his/her intention. 

Again, I don't know what happened on the other thread, but the I understand what Guest is saying and I think that the issue of not validating someone's emotions while just trying to fix their problem is a valid point.

Got to go to sleep.

sally

[lighter]

Sally:

If you can't find Guest101's posts, Second Page, page 4 posts.....

I provided them on this thread, in their entirety, PS included. 

In my defense, BAP asked for clarity on one of my posts.   

I provided them for that reason. 

Not to invalidate G101 or call her a hypocrite. 

Had I wanted to do those things, I assure you, I would have just come out and said as much. 

She misunderstood....



or.....



something. 


As for my "Oh the irony" comment. 

I think it would be fair to provide the entire post for context's sake? 

Short of that, I will respond with this.....

I do not have to be perfect in order to respond to a topic or post on this open forum.



::holding up hands and backing away from the computer slowly:: 



I see irony here.... lol..... does no one else see irony on this thread?

Irony doesn't have to be a harsh thing.... it can be a reality check thing too, lol.

Right?


::continuing to back away slowly... turning around and running like hell...... shouting over shoulder::..


I now invoke Guest Pirate's "think before we post" Code, whereby Pirate Lighter receive safe passage, empathy and support ONLY for the duration of this thread

 

::bouncing off wall, rubbing/hanging head.... preparing to spend time in the naughty chair::


::sniff::

Lighter has feelings too, lol.

[Hopalong]

Hi all, and Guest 101:

I think I contributed to the squabble or may have helped spark it, and I want to apologize.

Guest 101, once earlier when you posted in a thread of ReallyMe's (I don't remember which one) I had a similar reaction to you. I don't have much justification, and I may have been projecting something totally inappropriate. I just remember then, as now, feeling a sense of "who are you?" that I don't normally feel when a new poster comes on and comments. I remember also feeling protective of ReallyMe for some reason. (Sometimes nobody is needing my protection....I just project protection!)

Anyway, I'm sorry. I think what I should have said is: Guest 101, I would like to get to know you a little better before I can relate more comfortably. Would you mind sharing a little bit of your own story?

I don't think there was anything wrong with your comments here, and I appreciate your contribution to the dialogue. I think I just have a feeling of needing to know more about you. It's your choice of course. And I apologize for challenging you so gracelessly.

Hope that helps, and sorries everybody,
Hopalong

[Ami]

I think that there are many issues going on with this thread..
 The board is like real life and it can help  us function in real life better. In real life, there will be people who give you an intellectual response when you wanted and needed an emotional one. This is probably the responders inability to acknowledge their own personal pain.
  In real life, people will be insensitive like the response that Bigalsapal got about being"happy that she was alive". This is a great example of someone lashing out at another person b/c of their own pain. We all have done it and  all have had it done to us. We all can get triggered. It is more likely to happen if we are blocking our unhealed parts. This happens a lot in therapy and can really damage the patient.
    The most important thing is what Bigal pal did. She did not run away in shame. She wanted to, but she held on and brought the issue to light.
  The learning for her( and us) is that this type of thing will happen.We need to know how to hold on to "ourselves" and not let another person take our reality away from us.
  We are here b/c we were contaminated by N's and lost our voice. We can't control what someone says to us,but we can still be our own friend by trusting our own reality rather than someone else's.
  I see this as the crucial lesson .
   When someone snipes at me, I see it as an opportunity to grow.I need those opportunities b/c I was not taught those types of lessons . I was trying  to survive and  N mother. No one taught me that I was lovable and worth protecting. I am vulnerable and raw. I continually get hurt b/c I do not protect myself.
  These type of board experiences help to make me strong  and better able to handle the experience when it happens in real life and it WILL happen                       Love  Ami

[reallyME]

What I found when I joined this board, way back when, was that people really were becoming offended that I was talking about my situation.  I was told to just "Let it go" by some folks and others just out and out told me to stop talking about it and let the healing process begin.  One person even tried to make me feel that X was justified in how she treated me.

It seems that the best way to handle things, if you feel attacked from people on this board, is:

a.) realize that almost everyone here was either raised by N's or dysfunctional people, has/had friends that were dysfunctional, or wants to share their experiences.

b.) step away from the board for a while till things simmer down.  When you come back, wait and read other people's posts, and only begin sharing your story again after you sense that things are heading in a safe direction in general.

c.) really decide in yourself, if posting your situation again, is going to receive some helpful and supportive responses, or, if it's going to stir up a hornets nest when they see the familiar names and places in your post.

*I'm sorry if those A, B, C's sound intellectual.  I very much am an intellectual type of person, and I live my life in a step by step format for the most part when I can.  Those are just things from my experience with this V Board, that have worked very well for me.

[lighter]

it might be useful for some who post here to think about the difference between intellectual responses and emotional ones and when one might be given where the other was needed.

Oh dear. 

Guest 101, It seemed clear to me that Overcomer does not believe her friend murdered her infant son. 

How odd you refer to Heidi as 'her friend who murdered her child' on this particular thread?   

for example, it seemed clear to me that overcomer was looking for comfort and understanding on an emotional level when she posted about her friend who had murdered her child and has since been imprisoned in the Are we Mentally Ill thread..

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