intellectual vs. emotional responses

[teartracks]

lighter,

Thanks.  I wish I could take credit for holding your hand as you became comfortable with posting, but can't.    I'm glad someone was there for you.

I've been traveling and resting the last almost three weeks.  Taking a break from caretaking my mom.   

I'll be back on my home computer 'drip' by the end of July.  I'll probably give a report on it all when I get home.

The main thing I needed to reconcile and work into my spirit was the 'savior rising' part of me that would do anything to keep this woman from falling and the real likelihood of  a tormenting death resulting from it.  No wonder I was exhausted.  A savior I am not!   A fixer I am not!  I finally learned it. 

tt

[Certain Hope]

Hi teartracks,

I learned it, too... and hope and pray not to lose sight of that truth!!

Looking forward to your return... to your computer "drip"  ??  (what's that about?)

Anyhow, I'm so glad you've had a break! Just rejoicing with you over here... with love,

Hope

[isittoolate]

Looking forward to your return... to your computer "drip"  ??  (what's that about?)

Hope

Hi CH

tt is addicted so has an IV to her computer.

get it? an I V drip!

at least that's how i see it.............. as I have one!

xx
Izzy

[teartracks]

Yeah Iz,

That's it.  Love to you.

tt

[isittoolate]

Love to you too, tt

I cannot figure out when  you are near a computer and not.

Pardon my answering for you!--

I hope all is going well with you
xx
Izzy

[Ami]

trial and error:  you're learning who NOT to trust, but the way you're doing it doesn't make sense because it's emotional.  you might KNOW in your head that these people are trustworthy but you don't FEEL that way, you so want them to be different, to be loving.

for me it wasn't until I got:

that they couldn't be loving

that they knew EXACTLY what they were doing

that they were danger

that it was NOT my fault that they were the way they were

that I could NOT change them

that I so much WANTED them to be different

that is HURT HURT HURT --

it wasn't until I could feel all these feelings that I could release the lesson.

I think human beings are made in such a way that much of what is going on for us is going on spiritually and emotionally, under the surface.

we try to understand and make sense of things, but that is only half the battle.

the worst part -- the part we all avoid, myself included, is FEELING it.

that is what we distract ourselves from, but because it is what is necessary, I believe we just keep orchestrating the same events over and over so we can feel it and heal.



Dear Guest,
   This is exactly what I am going through now.. You are down the road -- ahead of me. Yesterday, I felt "real". I looked at people's faces and I felt feelings and responses and I received them  I did not filter them. I am Seeing below the surface to feelings and emotions.
  I am almost "real"-- not quite.
   I see that healing IS all about feeling those 'hidden' and denied feelings. It is about facing  those truths that we denied and put in our bodies and psyches. Then we got sick - mentally and physically.
   I am seeing life in more  color now.
      Guest, can you tell me more about your journey out of "mental distortions"?      Thanks so very very much                                                                                  Love    Ami

[Certain Hope]

Hi CH

tt is addicted so has an IV to her computer.

get it? an I V drip!

at least that's how i see it.............. as I have one!

xx
Izzy

Oh my.. lol -  okay, thank you, Izzy!  I have one of those drips for coffee each morning... lol.

I like my computer, but coffee... ahh... makes my heart beat faster

Love,
Hope

[Hopalong]

TT...

Joyful travel and peaceful rest!

love
Hops

[teartracks]

Hi everyone,

Thanks Iz for being my interpreter!  I'm not close to a computer except for random trips to the local library where in this case the out of school kids are almost out of control, doing things like farting for effect.    

CH,

Oh yes, coffee!  Maybe one day computer drips will come with coffee! 

Hops,

Thanks for your good wishes.  I'm learning so much and I'm unlearning so much.  I can't tell which is the hardest, the learning or the unlearning or are they the same thing?   If the old back holds up, I may post an account when I get back on the  'puter drip.'

Missing y'all,

tt

[teartracks]

lighter,

I should have included you, Axa, debkor and Storm as people who are growing to the point of moving beyond this board, who's wisdom would be missed. 

I'm not sure I will ever grow to the point where I will move beyond this board.  I have learned a lot for sure.  I'm still learning.  At this point, the board feels like some kind of glue that binds what I'm learning  at large together.  Kind of hard to explain.

Thank you for your kind thoughts.

tt

[guest101]

Guest, can you tell me more about your journey out of "mental distortions"?      Thanks so very very much                                                                                  Love    Ami

Ami, it warms my heart to know that some of what I have written resonates w/ you and is helping you with your own healing truly.  I'm hoping that will be true for others as well.

It's sad, but I do not feel this is a safe place for me to share my feelings and thoughts -- I'm sorry I cannot (chose not to) be more open here.  Please do not take it personally.

wishing you all the best and more.

[Ami]

Dear Guest,
   I don't take it personally at all. I just want to pose something to you--- take it or leave it, as it seems right to you.
   I have gone through many difficult phases while I have been on the board. I have 2 friends that I PM when I need to talk privately about what is going on.
   I see the board as replicating real  life. There has been a person trying to undermine me.I held to my own dignity and learned a lesson from her that I could not have learned from 100 people trying to be kind to me. I learned to be strong about who I am.
   Another time, I gave an unpopular opinion. I had to stand firm ,with dignity and that passed and I saw that I could stand up to outside disapproval and be O.K..
    It is just a thought-- to use the board as a way to grow and to find your voice in the difficult situations ,as well as the comforting ones.
   I suspect that you already know this and have made up your mind. I respect that.I hope that you post every now and then , Guest, b/c you have an honesty  that I like.          Love  Ami

[lighter]

lighter,

I'll be back on my home computer 'drip' by the end of July.  I'll probably give a report on it all when I get home.

The main thing I needed to reconcile and work into my spirit was the 'savior rising' part of me that would do anything to keep this woman from falling and the real likelihood of  a tormenting death resulting from it.  No wonder I was exhausted.  A savior I am not!   A fixer I am not!  I finally learned it. 

tt

tt:

I look forward reading about your time away. 

So glad that actually happened for ya.

How's your brother doing? 

Bet it's been a looooong 3 weeks for him. 

As for giving up the savior spirit thing..... I haven't had to do it with a parent but.... I've been doing it with a friend and family members. 

I was sorta pushed into it giving it up..... it's been a relief in some ways and more turmoil in others. 

I was barely keeping my own head above water.  I couldn't really manage it, to tell the truth. 

My not saving someone caused even more troubles and I ended up back in the position of caretaking once again.   

Pressure is being applied to rectify that, yet again.  Someone on my team is very very focused and has NO time for caretaking those that aren't willing to help themselves. 

She urges me to release the feeling of responsibility and hand it all back to those that should be handling it.

 I can see both sides, unfortunately.... and I feel guilt from the pit of my stomach. 

Just today I was ordered around by a family member and I hopped to did their bidding.  Chaos and trouble ensued.  NO good deed goes unpunished and she actually told me that all the chaos was MY idea, lol.  ::shaking head::

Absurd and I can only shake my head and try not to say awful things to her. 

I don't know how to deal with Borderline Personality Disordered people..... yet. 

One elephant at a time, please.  She doesn't cut me any slack during this pressing time in my life.  She makes outrageous and hurtful statements then asks me to do things for her that she should have already done for herself but she's too proud to ask other people she's ticked off too.   
 
As for the NON family member...... I go back and forth between putting my foot down...... or relaxing into 'extending grace' to this person who once extended it to me. 

A different kind of grace, but grace none the less. 

Very very hard to give up that savior halo: / 

Not sure why but it was like untying a lifeline for someone I usually keep tied to me.  Releasing it almost made me go smaller and limp inside.  It didn't feel good but I was interested in seeing just exactly WHAT it did to me.

The truth is...... it's not my responsibility and intellectually I can see that.   

I have been enabling, not helping that person move beyond. 

The grace extended to me..... helped me help myself and it wasn't extended, it was short term. 

There's a difference. 

If we help people remain stuck.... are we really helping them?

Come back and tell your story when you're ready, tt: )

::trying to pry savior halo off with a screwdriver:: 

Ow.


Must have needed that vent.  Thanks tt. 

[guest101]

Ami,

Thanks for the suggestion. 

My reluctance to open up more, though I will tell you has to do with how much I've grown and learn.

I see this place as a forum that people come to when they've learned to see past their denial and have opened up to the fact that their spouse, mother, siblings, coworkers are Ns and are reeling from that knowledge.

There is a lot of hurt and pain, betrayal, loss of trust, confusion and baggage that comes with that and this is a great place to get information and flush that out - explore it.

What I do not see this place as is one of accountability.

I have seen myself engage in many toxic, self-sabotoging behaviors -- detrimental to my own well being and my loved ones. 

On many levels, it's not my fault.

I wasn't trained well.  I had poor examples.  I grew up in a kill or be killed environment.  I am prodded and manipulated -- I have allowed that because I didn't know other relationships existed.

Oh, it seemed only normal to me and being triggered, because I am after all only human, I have succumbed.

As I looked at my life, as I've recovered from my wounds I looked at myself.  I've learned to stop looking for the fault in everyone else and look at myself.

I don't see this as a place that can really do that on the whole.

The group, in and of itself is very resistant to any suggestion, criticism or differing points of view.  The group is very self-protective, sometimes to the detriment of one or more of it's participants. 

This fluctuates from time to time but remains a constant theme.

People who do not readily operate in this way (in protection of the group as a whole) are ostracized or scapegoated -- look at what happened here, right on this very thread -- and immediately, right away.

You're right, Ami, it is a replication of the real world.

and what I've learned is that is TOXIC.

when others will attack you and label you rather than engage you in dialogue and self reflect that is dangerous.

it dehumanizes you.  you become a thing, rather than a living, breathing person with feelings.

what happens to you becomes "okay".  You're hurt but it doesn't matter to the one doing the hurting because after all

they are RIGHT and you are WRONG.  they have a point and you don't.  whatever they are trying to say supersedes your feelings.

it becomes clear that you are not a member of the fold unless you can sacrifice whatever issue, pain or hurt you've brought up for examination.

It is expected that this should be done for the benefit of the "group" but at the expense of the individual's well being and emotional health.



this is abusive, toxic, debilitating thinking.  the group is made of individuals, all with differing needs and cares.  when one suffers, we all suffer.

when one experiences healing we all are blessed by it, all who witness, all who participate, all who learn by example -- the group grows as a whole.

but when one is "slaughtered" we are all stained by the blood that splashes onto the bystanders, all who witness, all who participate, all who learn by example -- and it can happen on many, many levels.  from extreme to "seemingly" harmless.  but all of it eats away very slowly at our collective souls.

now I'm not saying who does that here or that everyone does that here but it does happen here.  and if someone points it out, they are attacked for it or labeled; some say they haven't experienced it, in short dismissing the one who has  -- basically, the toxic, dysfunctional FOO cycle continues.

for some it is helpful, in that the pain and betrayal is a catalyst for growth and healing.

for myself it is an unnecessary reminder of how callous and hurtful we all can be when we're in pain.

I include myself in that as a constant reminder that I, too, can be that way lest I cease being vigilant.

I firmly believe our relationships with others reflect our relationship with ourselves.

I firmly believe if we find ourselves encountering cantankerous people, users, liars, manipulators, closed off emotionally unavailable people, dominating people, selfish people there is something inside of us that needs  to heal in order for us to cease tolerating that element of chaos in our lives in the here now.

you know, even toxic people can see.

my N parents have said many things about me that were lies -- but some of it was true!!!!


it would be easy to reject everything they have said as crazy and harmful but it is more beneficial to myself to face the truth with humility and sincerity so that I can grow in spirit to be whom God intended.


Ami, thank you for giving me the opportunity to say this here -- there obviously was a need.

In my pain and sorrow I reached out to this place for solace and what I received was horrible, bordering on inhumane but none the less unidentifiable to those who participated in it; tolerable to those who witnessed it; acceptable to those who ignored it. 

Did it hurt me?

Yes, it was incredibly hurtful, in a way that defies logic if I did not understand that it was just a replication of my parents', my FOOs' betrayal of myself over and over again in my childhood.

no, I will never open myself up to that treatment again.

because as I've learned to take good care of myself now -- and I have become able to discern environments and relationships that are healthy for ME.

this is something we can all do and it is entirely personal.

what is good for one person may not be good for another and visa versa.

~God bless

[teartracks]

Hi all,


As I see it, at best most of us here are amateurs in the field of psychology and sociology.   All we can give is all we can give.  I mean how often has someone exclaimed, complained or warned about the ineptness of supposedly  credentialed therapists who when put to the test, fail their patient?  If there are so many failures amongst the professionals, then what would make a person expect they are going to receive 'professional' insight and treatment for deep psychological issues on a forum compiled mainly of amateurs?  I'm not saying it won't happen, or that it is wrong to offer up anything we think will help, but we must be realistic in our expectations.  I'm not putting down anyone's efforts to do all they can, nor am I putting down those of us who have monumental issues, but come on!

After a long absence, I have been posting here about two years.  My observation is that there is a dark underbelly that drives this conflict, and IMO all the others that have erupted over the last two or so years that I've been a member.  I have dissected and explained to myself the common denominators of these cycles/dramas.   You see, I'm good at that.  There is always and inflicter and an inflictee.  I'm able to see the big surface picture of these conflicts and it is ugly!  UGLY!   The problem is that  I have no skills at treating the underlying cause.  At best anything I could offer would sound glib and cold.  So I decided not to post my analysis of the common denominators of these conflicts until or unless I had something to offer in the way of fixing the wounds that drive the conflict.  (This post may be my best or worst effort toward that cause.)  And what lies beneath is a serious, psychological issue that has taken a destructive, turn.  I don't like being a prop for the drama and except for the inflicter and the inflictee that's what we who participate become.  Maybe my 'savior rising' tendency really is on its way out.  The driving force beneath these conflicts defies understanding and explaination by your average,  run of the mill, garden variety, street talking social psychologist (that is me).     

Many have said it before me.  There is lots of help to be had here,  but when it"s all said and done what you get here could turn out to be to deep psychological issues what a laxative would be to appendicitis.  We must exercise reasonable caution here as in all aspects of life.

What I'm saying seems blunt to my own ears, but I think we all need a heads up here, not about a person or persons, but about the limitations of the board when it comes to what we expect from it on a  personal level.

To chronically place blame, guilt, shame, on the board community at large seems unfair and unreasonable.

I'll probably regret posting this, but I'm going to and let the chips fall where they may.

tt