intellectual vs. emotional responses

[Hopalong]

TT,
Thank you for your wisdom.
You brought gifts down from the mountain!

(I deleted my previous post since I think I was off base. Leaving the love though.)

hugs
Hops

[Ami]

Dear Guest,
  Someone tried to 'run me off" the board a month ago. It almost worked. I am not a conventional thinker.  I am healing in a different way than some people like. I am healing in the way that my intuition tells me that I should heal.
 . I stayed by having supportive friends that I could private message. They encouraged me to stay. When I did stay, I have noticed more hurting people coming "out of the woodwork" and feeling safe to post on deep and real issues.
   This may be b/c of me or may not be. However, the board seems to have allowed more personal cries  than before where people were"slapped" down more. 
    Guest,I differ with you on one thing. I think that you are looking for a utopia . You seem to be looking for a place  where it is "safe". I think that part of my maturity is realizing that there is no  totally safe place. Our best bet will be to find some people who will have our back- within the general group of people. Even the people who have our back will not be there 100%. .
    My thought is that you are looking for a utopia. In doing this ,you will deprive yourself of people who will love and care for you. The people who want to hurt you for their own needs will always be there-- on the board and in real life. You can never get away from them-- no matter how far you go. IMO, you might as well take the love and caring that you can find and learn how to fight back at the negative influences without losing the core of who you are,
   Your FOO stole enough away from you. Don't let "unrealistic" thinking steal any more.
   This is just as I see it. However, i am saying it with love and concern. I, personally,need the board. I just have to learn to navigate the sharks                         Love  Ami
 .

[guest101]

To chronically place blame, guilt, shame, on the board community at large seems unfair and unreasonable

.

I guess herein lies the dilema. 

I offer a critique, an observation an explanation of my own experience

the person receives blame, guilt & shame -- it's a problem of perception.

Ami, you say you percieve I am looking for utopia. 

no, not at all.

truthfully, the most welcomed response to my post would have went something like this:

Guest, you sound like you're in a lot of pain.  some of what you say it true.  it doesn't matter why -- we all have our theory as to why this happens in life and here.

I here and understand what you're saying.

I am so sorry that you've been hurt here and in real space, with your family.

I've learned to avoid the negative aspects of this place and I've learned and grown from it -- I hope that in some way this is and will become true for you.

TT, your response did not make me feel good at all.  did is matter to you when you wrote it, how I felt?

I'm just asking.  were you just concerned with the fact that I had made the board look bad or that you felt bad that you forgot I'm a person just like you.  with all my hurts faults and all.

Hops, your cheers and applause, in writing it did you think about me at all? 

did it matter how I felt?

if I was write, ami, lighter or one of the others would you have spared a word of comfort -- encouragement kindness?

I'm just asking.

I am not per se looking for a place where it is safe - no place is completely like that.

I am looking for a place where expression is tolerated and if some one is attacked for having feelings others say, Hey, hey, not here -- that's not okay.

again, God bless.

[guest101]

After a long absence, I have been posting here about two years.  My observation is that there is a dark underbelly that drives this conflict, and IMO all the others that have erupted over the last two or so years that I've been a member.  I have dissected and explained to myself the common denominators of these cycles/dramas.   You see, I'm good at that.  There is always and inflicter and an inflictee.  I'm able to see the big surface picture of these conflicts and it is ugly!  UGLY!   The problem is that  I have no skills at treating the underlying cause.  At best anything I could offer would sound glib and cold.  So I decided not to post my analysis of the common denominators of these conflicts until or unless I had something to offer in the way of fixing the wounds that drive the conflict.  (This post may be my best or worst effort toward that cause.)  And what lies beneath is a serious, psychological issue that has taken a destructive, turn.  I don't like being a prop for the drama and except for the inflicter and the inflictee that's what we who participate become.  Maybe my 'savior rising' tendency really is on its way out.  The driving force beneath these conflicts defies understanding and explaination by your average,  run of the mill, garden variety, street talking social psychologist (that is me).     

Many have said it before me.  There is lots of help to be had here,  but when it"s all said and done what you get here could turn out to be to deep psychological issues what a laxative would be to appendicitis.  We must exercise reasonable caution here as in all aspects of life.

this reads like an us vs them theory.  the deeply psychologically disturbed vs the garden viariety, stree talking  -- it hurts to read.

I don't see conflicts as being treatable at all of all things    -- but maybe my reaction is to the limitation of language.  maybe this doesn't mean what I think it means.

conflicts arise from triggered emotions which need to be acknowledged, felt and most importantly HEARD.  before we say or do anything there is a feeling that propels us into action.

but after all I suppose it doesn't matter what I feel.  I'm not a "member" here anymore.

[Ami]

Dear Guest,
   I think that you are trying to control the uncontrollable----- other people.I think that this is our dilemma when we come from a N  FOO. I am learning this lesson now and it is really, really freeing.
 I am alone . God will provide people to undergird me,but even these people can disappoint me or betray me .. Then ,there are the other people who just don't like me b/c I am me  and I threaten them in some way. Or maybe someone just wants to be nasty and I am in the crossfire. This has happened to me, also..
  I don't think that there is any group anywhere --- where you will not have to fight some  type of power battles.My son is in a fraternity. I am amazed that he can navigate his way in a group of people like this. He says that the same thing that happens on the board -happens in  the fraternity. My other son is a manager in a restaurant. The same thing happens there.This helps me to see that this is just life. I need to learn to navigate, rather than want it to be different.
   Guest, this is just my voice, I think that you are giving up on yourself by going away. I almost did it to, so I do understand how you feel,I think                                 
   Anyway, I just wanted to give my opinion. God bless you                     Love  Ami
   

[guest101]

no, Ami, thank you.  you are helping immensely -- your voice is solid and strong and honest.

this is how I felt just minutes ago.   I thought, am I being called:  deeply disturbed.  boy, that hurts so much, and then I thought

to myself:  boy, should I have written that another way?  how could I have written my feelings better to convey what I truly felt?

how could I have said what I feel w/o coming off as I was attacking.

in short, I felt:  responsible.

if I feel responsible, then yes, there is something in me that feels like I can "fix" it

"fix it" = control.

so how right you are.  that is in me and has been for a long time.  and here God is showing it too me again. 

[Ami]

Dear Guest,
   We have crossroads when we can face our internal patterns or run. I think that this is one time for you. We are playing out our internal issues on "outside things".All of us do this, but it is worse when you have an N FOO. Bigals pal went through that a week ago.She was playing out her" over apologizing "when she was not at fault. Friends helped her and she took back her power.
   That is your opportunity as I see it--- .You can take back your power or you can run. If you run., you will be faced with the same lesson--over and over. Stay--- I will help you and other people will too.
 What has happened to you has happened to most everyone. It will happen if you have strong ideas and are"different' from the pack. Don't you want t learn to celebrate that difference?  I hope so   Love  Ami

[lighter]

What I do not see this place as is one of accountability.

I disagree with that statement but I'm willing to accept your feelings and not ask you to doubt them.  

If you ask me to doubt my feelings, are you not doing to me what you feel has been done unto you?

As I looked at my life, as I've recovered from my wounds I looked at myself.  I've learned to stop looking for the fault in everyone else and look at myself.

I wouldn't be pointing this out..... again...... but it seems appropriate, somehow.

You made a statement involving your superior ability to reason and understand on a 'specific' thread.  

You criticized other board members' ability to understand and post responsibly.

I spoke my truth, as I saw and it was accused of being a meanie.  I understand why.  

My N always accused me of 'being cruel' if I refused to accept his warped reality, usually flying in the face of all reason.  

Are we discussing the same point here?  

Or speaking to past ghosts and triggers?  I'm not really sure.
  

People who do not readily operate in this way (in protection of the group as a whole) are ostracized or scapegoated -- look at what happened here, right on this very thread -- and immediately, right away.

I think you were asked for clarification, not scapegoated but your feelings about that are valid, no matter how anyone else sees it.  

You deserve to feel understood.  

I needed to understand why you wanted [me] to accept your statement as fact, when it was actually a contradiction, IMO.  

You didn't upset me, I was just curious so I asked and pointed out what seemed like a cotradiction to me.  

An attack, at least on my part, would look much different than the interaction on this thread, I promise, lol.  

You're right, Ami, it is a replication of the real world.

and what I've learned is that is TOXIC.

when others will attack you and label you rather than engage you in dialogue and self reflect that is dangerous.

it dehumanizes you.  you become a thing, rather than a living, breathing person with feelings.

I wish you'd post authentically and work out whatever problem you had in the past.  

I promise, I want to understand and help you feel comfortable on the board......

 not dehumanize you, (((Guest)))  

what happens to you becomes "okay".  You're hurt but it doesn't matter to the one doing the hurting because after all

they are RIGHT and you are WRONG.  they have a point and you don't.  whatever they are trying to say supersedes your feelings.

You had a valid point, no doubt.  

IMO, it was unfortunately prefaced.  

  

it becomes clear that you are not a member of the fold unless you can sacrifice whatever issue, pain or hurt you've brought up for examination.

It is expected that this should be done for the benefit of the "group" but at the expense of the individual's well being and emotional health.

this is abusive, toxic, debilitating thinking.  the group is made of individuals, all with differing needs and cares.  when one suffers, we all suffer.

I don't want to be asked to feel guilt and shame for using my voice either, Guest.  

Not that I'm complaining, I simply open this up for honest dialogue without name calling or attacking.  
::holding hands up for peace::

but when one is "slaughtered" we are all stained by the blood that splashes onto the bystanders, all who witness, all who participate, all who learn by example -- and it can happen on many, many levels.  from extreme to "seemingly" harmless.  but all of it eats away very slowly at our collective souls.[q/uote]



 

now I'm not saying who does that here or that everyone does that here but it does happen here.  and if someone points it out, they are attacked for it or labeled; some say they haven't experienced it, in short dismissing the one who has  -- basically, the toxic, dysfunctional FOO cycle continues.

 

Ami, thank you for giving me the opportunity to say this here -- there obviously was a need.

In my pain and sorrow I reached out to this place for solace and what I received was horrible, bordering on inhumane but none the less unidentifiable to those who participated in it; tolerable to those who witnessed it; acceptable to those who ignored it.  

Did it hurt me?

Good Lord and little fishes, Guest

I think we all identify with past hurts on the board.  

Strife's always been an opportunity for growth, IME.    

I truly hope you can work through some of these feelings.  

Maybe we could have one thread that addresses the old issues specifically, if you think it would help?

Newbies could avoid it and only those up to it could attend.... keep it in that one thread?

I really do get a lot from your posts and hope you can feel safe here once again, Guest.    

[guest101]

Hi Lighter,

I'm not asking you or anyone to doubt their feelings, just to accept that my feelings (for me and to me) are real and valid - not just a figment of my derranged imagination.  I don't see the two as mutually exclusively.

You feelings can co-exist with my own.

For example, the "contradiction" you pointed out -- it's valid.  I did not want to post "authentically" as you describe it (I am authentic even though I'm not using a handle other than one prefaced by guest) and so while I wanted to be more compassionate in the ARe We Mentally Ill thread,  I couldn't w/o giving myself away.  I came off sounding all intellectual because of that but that was an accurate description because I was scared and I was trying to protect myself. 

most of the time when we go into our head it's because we are scared to feel the feelings.  I've learned that through my experiences with my trauma and healing.

You made a statement involving your superior ability to reason and understand on a 'specific' thread. 

You criticized other board members' ability to understand and post responsibly.

I spoke my truth, as I saw and it was accused of being a meanie.  I understand why. 

My N always accused me of 'being cruel' if I refused to accept his warped reality, usually flying in the face of all reason. 

Are we discussing the same point here? 

Or speaking to past ghosts and triggers?  I'm not really sure.

I would answer this but you're still being mean.  I am not your N, not even close.  This paragraph is full of put downs and accusations and doesn't seem to want to understand me or acknowledge my feelings at all.  Because you've wrote that paragraph above I cannot accept what you say below:

I wish you'd post authentically and work out whatever problem you had in the past. 

I promise, I want to understand and help you feel comfortable on the board......

 not dehumanize you, (((Guest)))

 


I am authentic.  If I became a member as G101 or posted as G101, would I still not be authentic -- would I somehow become more authentic?

I don't want to be asked to feel guilt and shame for using my voice either, Guest. 

Not that I'm complaining, I simply open this up for honest dialogue without name calling or attacking. 
::holding hands up for peace::

I am not asking that at all and if you were not frightened of me and did not feel threatened by me we could have open dialogue, we could talk honestly and w/ an integrity.  I don't feel that you can do that though - I don't feel that you want what is best for me -- I feel you want to destroy my voice here on this forum because you find it threatening.

I hope you can read this and accept it as a valid and honest description of WHAT I FEEL and not of what or who you are -- as I have read and accepted your own comments.

I am sorry truly that you have a need to make me a villain here but I do not accept that label. 





   

[Ami]

Dear Guest,
   When it is all said and done, I think that you should stay and fight for your voice. It is THAT important. Also, you can learn to separate FOO patterns within you from external situations outside of you(like we all have to do) . If you don't do it here- where are you going to do it?                               Love  Ami

[guest101]

ami, we'll see - emotionally I'm at a very vulnerable place in my life and I want to honor that and take good care of myself.   your support and wisdom is like a balm to this wounded soldier -- thank you for extending such grace.

[Ami]

Dear Guest,
   You are so very ,very welcome .                                     Love    Ami

[isittoolate]

guest101
I couldn't w/o giving myself away.

I don't want to get into a bruhaha but I noticed the above and have to wonder what you have to hide and why?
The Board does not function well with sneakiness and cliques.
Izzy

[guest101]

I don't want to get into a bruhaha but I noticed the above and have to wonder what you have to hide and why?
The Board does not function well with sneakiness and cliques.
Izzy

Izzy, I very clearly explained that I was scared.  And if you've read any of my responses on this thread (you might not have although you've participated in the dialogue) I wrote more than once that I had posted here and been treated badly.

This board does function very well with sneakiness and cliques, so I wholeheartedly disagree with you -- it functions "well" in the dysfunctional way that the world does.

Izzy, I am sorry but I cannot and will not play the role of villain on this board for you or anyone else here.  I am a living, breathing, hurting, loving human being just as everyone else is here -- just as you I ready to believe you are.

I am blessed to see that this is clear to some who have responded here.

[lighter]

I am not asking that at all and if you were not frightened of me and did not feel threatened by me we could have open dialogue, we could talk honestly and w/ an integrity.  I don't feel that you can do that though - I don't feel that you want what is best for me -- I feel you want to destroy my voice here on this forum because you find it threatening.

I hope you can read this and accept it as a valid and honest description of WHAT I FEEL and not of what or who you are -- as I have read and accepted your own comments.

I am sorry truly that you have a need to make me a villain here but I do not accept that label.   
[/quote

I'm going to slow talk back to you what I think I hear you saying, Guest.

1)  You think I'm threatened by you

2) You understand how I've been triggered with regard to my N's expectations that I deny reality

3)  You think I find YOU threatening, even after we just talked about what we both feel is the real threat.  N's past treatment of me.  

You're OP was the trigger.  

I've admitted my issue wasn't really your post, therefore I don't feel you're a threat.

4)  You think I personally wish you ill will on the board and have labled you a 'villain'


I believe my honest attempt at communcation with you was rejected.    

I regret that you feel threatened by me.  

I don't think I'm the only factor involved, unfortunately.  

I can't fix this one: /  

I didn't assume teartrack's post was directed soley at you.  

In fact, I read it in your favor, funnily enough.  

Maybe everyone assumed she might be talking about them, lol.... ::Shrug::  

Not sure but it coud happen, lol.  

I'm going to assume you have no intention of posting authentically on the board...... Meaning, identify yourself and post details that would help anyone understand what the hecks going on with you.

That's perfectly acceptable.  

I do find it frustrating though, for reasons of my own, so I won't be responding to your posts much in the future.  

::a little relieved we won't be revisiting that particular past conflict::

I really do hope you feel better and find peace.