Author Topic: sigh, sigh, sigh...  (Read 5848 times)

write

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sigh, sigh, sigh...
« on: April 21, 2004, 10:22:29 PM »
it just hit me tonight how much a narcissist my ex really is.
Despite the therapy, and him really really trying hard to do right.
Tonight he boasted ' I'm the favourite parent' while I was clearly agonising.
Maybe I need to spend less time with him, it tortures me really that he can go so far...then fall back into his old patterns.
When he's doing great I feel like why couldn't you be like this before, when he reverts to type I get hurt again...he says he's damned whatever he does. He is. He condemned himself a long tie ago by his behaviour.
It could take years for him to unravel, if he ever can ( the psych is confident he can modify his behaviour if he's determined, doesn't know about 'connecting' in relationships....)
I am so tired of my life being on hold while he's messed up and messing up.
We've been negotiating a great relationship for parenting, I let my guard down, but now I'm back on red alert.
I'm beginning to realise I HAVE TO find a new way of interacting with him, stop treating him in the open way I relate to others, he is hard-wired to mess with me and there's nothing I can do to change that only keep protecting myself and where we have to have contact asserting myself.
I love him, but love isn't the same thing to him, and its time I opened my eyes and accepted it.

sjkravill

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sigh, sigh, sigh...
« Reply #1 on: April 22, 2004, 12:12:33 AM »
.... and sigh again...
I am so sorry to hear of the pain you are in... It is so heartbreaking, isn't it?  When we love them?  When we want them to be healthy for their sake and for the sake of everyone else involved (us included)?

I too think my H is really working, and he may well be... Then I am so surprised, confused and utterly disheartened to see the N qualities come out again.  
Then, I am filled with animosity.  Love/resentment for having to wait indefinately.  I wonder if he can or will or is changing???  How long will I wait?  ...sigh!

This piece of your post really caught my attention:
"I love him, but love isn't the same thing to him, and it's time I opened my eyes and accepted it"

There are so many ideas of love.  To N, I think love = need.  He believes he loves because it fills his self-image need.  What he feels is a strong attachment, maybe even sentiment.  My N thinks he respects and admires me, but not on the level which would cause him to treat me with respect.  It continues to be difficult for me to grasp.  I "get it" intellectually, but I can't believe or accept that it is true.

I certainly also feel a strong sentiment and attachment to him as well.  I have difficulty setting boundries because if I say "no" to him he will tell me that I don't "love" him.  When in actuality, saying No is loving.  It is saying, I love you enough to stop enabeling your unhealthy behavior by saying "yes" all the time.  Maybe failing to set boundries is filling my self-image need to feel like a "good" wife.  It can be a confusing distinction for me.  Usually I judge on effect more than intent, but I am trying to pay closer to both of our "real" intentions, because effects can be confusing.  I also feel a real affection for him, and believe that he is trying that he can change.  

I guess I am confused about what love really is, or what is acceptable in a healthy relationship...
oh well.

I don't know if I am making any sense...  I just wanted to send a supportive message in this difficult time.
Peace, sjkravill

write

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« Reply #2 on: April 22, 2004, 08:16:58 AM »
Thanks.

You know, I thought once we separated the pain would diminuish, but I guess in seeing such great changes in him I started to discount the narcissism, to enjoy the wonderful guy that he would be without it...

He has so much potential, but that's all it is, potential. He almost never follows through in any way to make the relationship real, there's a detachment about him, a lack of genuine emotion which will always ultimately make me feel worthless around him.

yes, that does tap into the damaged self from childhood, and I confused the two and repetitively relived an old pain.

I need to toughen up now, not be available to anyone who will abuse me or help me replay an old script.

I'm going to teach myself a couple of mantras or lines which I shall use to shut down an interaction as soon as it becomes abusive, with h, with anyone.

Gingerpeach

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« Reply #3 on: April 22, 2004, 02:07:02 PM »
Dear Write and Sjkravill,

Please consider that the times with the N when "things are good"  or "he is really trying"  may just be "acting" or the manifestation of the FALSE self. These good periods or attempts at "changing" may also be indicative of the N's desperation at doing ANYTHING that will keep you in the relationship.

Remember, they do NOT want you to leave.  They have captured you. You belong to them.  They have invested a lot of time and effort in training you to respond to them in the way that THEY want you to respond/behave.  They do not want this to go to waste.

I say this from my experience with my soon-to be-exNH.  When I discovered his betrayal/infidelity was the day that I began searching for the answer to WHY was he like this?  Within days, I found Narcissism and it explained the WHY to not just the betrayal question, but to all of the many unwritten questions that I had about all of the things that weren't "right."  I was one of those people with my jaw hanging as I read.

I stayed with him for a year and a half after that.  Like Sjkravill, I understood about the Narcissism in my head, but I couldn't internalize it.  I didn't really believe it in my heart.  

And in that year and a half, his behavior improved markedly.  But only to a point and really, only superficially.  I posted previously to Sjkravill that I noticed that the insults were more veiled, the abuse was more subtle.  It was still there though, continuing to erode my soul.  And.... I needed to be vigilant or the truly awful stuff would return in short order.  I ask you, is this any way to live your life, eternally watchful? On guard?  Where is the joy?

Anyway, two days before Christmas 2002, the penny dropped.  It finally became very clear that he was never going to really change,  that any change in behavior was just that....a change in behavior.  It didn't really change HIM or create any real connection between us , or respect or real lovingness.

So, when a month later, I told him that I wanted to end the relationship, the most revealing thing that he said was....."So, I've spent the last year and a half dancing around to your tune for nothing?"

See?  It really wasn't about becoming a better person for the sake of being a better person, it was "acting" like a better person to keep me from leaving.  That was all it was.  And he KNEW it too !!!  

Talk about feeling like a piece of meat !!  WE REALLY ARE NOT HUMAN TO THEM.  This is the hardest part of it to accept.  Since you are not an N, you can't IMAGINE thinking of or treating others as something less than human.

So when Write  says....."I started to discount the narcissism, to enjoy the wonderful guy that he would be without it" ....  I question whether it is possible for the guy to exist without the Narcissism.

I apologize if I am sounding so pessimistic.  I can only tell you from my experience.  My time with him was truly hell on earth.  The leaving is hard, painful and lonely too, because since they absorb us so well, when we leave.......it leaves a big hole in us too.  We have become unaccustomed to being only our own person and it takes effort to locate and exert those long unused parts of us.

So, I can  only say to you Write, hang in there, I am proud of you that you are so aware and are moving toward health and sanity.  Be patient, it takes TIME and sometimes it's VERY hard.  It has only been a year since I left and I have regained much of myself, but I still see how much more there is to go.  The BIG difference is that NOW I embrace it.

For Sjkravill, you KNOW that I worry about you !!!  I am glad that you continue to post and pay attention.  I hope that your schoolwork is successful too !!
 
And to Lynn, if you happen to read this, how are you doing ??  I know how baffling it can be when you've just left.  Drop a line, if you feel like sharing.

Anonymous

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« Reply #4 on: April 22, 2004, 02:15:58 PM »
I agree, Gingerpeach, you cannot seperate them from their narcissism.  There is no "real" or "good" person they can turn into if they only "got it".  Personality disorders are wrapped around and all through their psyche, they cannot be seperated from it.  There is no one better inside, they are their disorder.

Lizbeth

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« Reply #5 on: April 22, 2004, 02:17:58 PM »
Don't know why this keeps happening.  I log in, and then when I post, I"m not logged in. Sorry, for whatever reason, that post above was from me,

Lizbeth

Portia

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« Reply #6 on: April 22, 2004, 02:20:29 PM »
Nice one Gingerpeach:

Quote
WE REALLY ARE NOT HUMAN TO THEM


and when we can reach the startling conclusion that they are not human like we are....then we can distance ourselves. And pehaps see them for the 1, 2, 6 year olds they really are - but unlike children, they don't need our protection or nurturing. And unlike children - they are never going to grow out of it. Maybe instead of Ns we could call them emotionally retarded/challenged? Sad but true it seems. Look after yourselves, P

PS Lizbeth: if you click 'log in to check messages' in the middle instead of the 'log in' bit, you might get in first time - but no guarantee!

Lizbeth

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« Reply #7 on: April 22, 2004, 02:54:04 PM »
Portia, thanks for the advice re logging in.  I'll try that next time instead!

Lizbeth :D

phoenix

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sigh, sigh, sigh...
« Reply #8 on: April 22, 2004, 05:27:30 PM »
bye

write

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« Reply #9 on: April 22, 2004, 06:34:48 PM »
you cannot seperate them from their narcissism. There is no "real" or "good" person they can turn into if they only "got it". Personality disorders are wrapped around and all through their psyche, they cannot be seperated from it. There is no one better inside, they are their disorder.

this is interesting. I never see anyone this way, everyone is always more than just one 'label' to me.

I know this man inside out and there is much more to him than narcissism, he has many good ( and bad ) qualities. The narcissism is a flaw: he has a fractured self, not no self.

Even if he can reconstruct himself with his psychiatrist the problem for me is I'm living life now...I can't put life on hold for me any longer. It could take years, and maybe parts of him will never fully develop.

My pain comes from wanting someone to meet my needs, and wanting it to be him, and him being unable to, and me being disappointed...and that could happen in any relationship and THOSE ARE MY ISSUES.
I chose to be and stay in a relationship with such problems, I never would have if I'd been emotionally healthy myself, but like many here my childhood was abusive and miserable, and it's taken me years to fully know what a good life and a healthy self means.

What I need to heal my pain= acceptance, and nurturing myself while I grieve, then let go. Let go of anger, the past and the future we might have had. Not be bitter, or I'll take that with me into new situations and relationships.

letting go is the best thing for him too, because he's busy working on himself and trying to be a good parent...he doesn't have any spare resources to be there for me even if he was able. And he deserves a chance to try to change without me being in on the dynamics. I haven't seen him looking so relaxed and well in years- the strain has taken its toll on him too and as I work through my anger and pain I feel compassion and respect for him, through the recognition that I have choices and emotions he doesn't.

I gave myself a good talking to today, as you can see! I'll get there!

It's odd that you can get so anesthetized by your own pain or your own problem that you don't quite fully share the hell of someone close to you. Lady Bird Johnson

Anonymous

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« Reply #10 on: April 22, 2004, 06:45:59 PM »
[quote="write
My pain comes from wanting someone to meet my needs, and wanting it to be him, and him being unable to, and me being disappointed[/u

And for me, I got to the point where I got sick and tired of being driven by this. Looking for someone to meet my needs. Make me feel better. To take care of me and give me what I wanted. And I'd choose who they were to be, whether they were capable or equipped or not.  YUUUUUK. I now think "Those poor people." I had to heal myself, and learn to meet my own needs.

It's quite funny really when I realised that, how my list of needs reduced somewhat, when it fell onto my shoulders to do it, I mean. Because it was so much hard work, I reduced it quite quite quite a bit. It had to come from inside me, and I found that most of those needs I wanted met were just form of romanticism anyway. Thanks write for posting an interesting topic.

CG

write

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« Reply #11 on: April 22, 2004, 08:19:03 PM »
I had to heal myself, and learn to meet my own needs.

It's quite funny really when I realised that, how my list of needs reduced somewhat, when it fell onto my shoulders to do it, I mean. Because it was so much hard work, I reduced it quite quite quite a bit. It had to come from inside me, and I found that most of those needs I wanted met were just form of romanticism anyway. Thanks write for posting an interesting topic.



this resonates so much CG! especially the word ROMANTICISM- I so need to retrain myself on that & love relationships! Thank you- I'll print it off as a reminder.

Wildflower

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« Reply #12 on: April 22, 2004, 11:55:55 PM »
Hi write,

Quote
Tonight he boasted ' I'm the favourite parent' while I was clearly agonising


You know, I just can't get over the fact that he actually came out and said this.  Do you know what he meant (obviousness aside)?  What was he trying to say to you?  It makes me worry a bit about him being competitive with your children, and I hate to say it, but try to put them against you when things aren't going smoothly between the two of you?  This already says to me that he's willing to use them to 'get back' at you?

Quote
My pain comes from wanting someone to meet my needs, and wanting it to be him, and him being unable to, and me being disappointed...and that could happen in any relationship and THOSE ARE MY ISSUES.
I chose to be and stay in a relationship with such problems, I never would have if I'd been emotionally healthy myself, but like many here my childhood was abusive and miserable, and it's taken me years to fully know what a good life and a healthy self means.

What I need to heal my pain= acceptance, and nurturing myself while I grieve, then let go. Let go of anger, the past and the future we might have had. Not be bitter, or I'll take that with me into new situations and relationships.


This is great stuff.  I'm sure a lot of hard work went into finding these conclusions.  Isn't it nice to be able to finally think and get things straight instead of being under so much pressure all the time? :D

Hang in there.

Wildflower
If you want to sing out, sing out
And if you want to be free, be free
'Cause there's a million ways to be, you know that there are
-- Cat Stevens, from the movie Harold and Maude

write

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« Reply #13 on: April 23, 2004, 01:08:18 AM »
What was he trying to say to you?

nothing, it was a flippant offhand remark. The issue was, I was already pretty uptight about my son not wanting to stay, and he didn't connect that stupid comments would be extra-hurtful. Or notice that I was upset. I had to tell him. He apologised then.

This is an old problem- his obliviousness to other's emotions or moods. And tactless comments.

But I know I'm lucky we can talk openly at all, some narcissists will tolerate no slight or criticism ( real or imagined ) and certainly no advice or instruction; in fact he was like this for years until our son was born.

My h has said to me several times 'I trust you', and at last I have the understanding to be humbled by that.

I'm sure a lot of hard work went into finding these conclusions. Isn't it nice to be able to finally think and get things straight instead of being under so much pressure all the time?

I couldn't have got this far without
1) therapy
2) you guys
3) my lovely friends, many who are beautiful life role models
4) my husband, and his willingness to be guided by me ( and now the psych ) on parenting & planning for the future.

It is nice to be clear-headed, and I'll write more about that tomorrow and the new man who turned my head briefly recently!

Nic

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Hi Write and all
« Reply #14 on: April 23, 2004, 01:29:38 AM »
I'm having trouble with this one Write..there seems to be an agreement on the thread that everything rests on each individual's shoulder.  The need to get better, the need to recover, the need to nurture self, the need to love self etc.  To me, it points to alot of isolation and aloneness..the contradiction is that most if not all of us come from broken promises, double messages, mistrust and distrust, rejection and abandonment..everything negative it seems.
Is it not better to seek balance? I think we need other people..lovers and wives and husbands and children and friends..yet the discourse keeps sending us back to our lonely selves..to ponder and experiment alone..to conquer isolation with more isolation.
Sure, it's fine to take a step back, a timeout on relationships when they've been bad or been avoided altogether.  That was me for the longest time, the alone thing, fortress Nic.  But i've come to realize that I need other people, other sane people particularly..not perfect people, they just don't exist.  This doesn't mean closing doors, it means putting a sign on it that says: "Please knock!"
I think it is a built in reflex for people to look for other people to love..I love you, You love me is not necessarily a heavy and negative thing.  Tainted by the misuse of these words, my behaviour in the past has been one of avoidance.  I've never feared being alone, in fact i've spent most of my life alone..either by myself or with someone, which makes it easier for me to say  I had the problem, I was isolated within myself if you will. Unable to reach in and unable to reach out..what a prison!
Balance, that's where all my new acquired knowledge is being redirected.  And I think it's possible.  I have to be the right person, not the other.

Mind you I can fully understand and empathize with those of us who wish to abstain from involvement, romantic or otherwise, but I suspect that this built-in need to love and be loved cannot forever be ignored.

I also think men and women differ on this issue, particularly when it comes to sexuality..put bluntly, the act itself!  I heard a very old woman being interviewed on tv asserting that " sex is the elixir of life!" Of course, after I got over the embarrassment of hearing this coming out of a ninety year old  :oops:  I questionned why I was feeling this way.  Almost a year later I think I know...

At this point in my life and having purged from my system many of the sequelae of having been raised by two Ns, i'm ready to go on..to go further.  I'm very tired and need a break but can't take one because of the financial mahem my N parents have caused in my life..and so i trudge on. BUT, inside my soul, my head, my spirit whatever you want to call it, there is/has been a renaissance.
  I've shed much of who I was before, i'm changing and dealing with the new me with as much patience and wisdom as I have at this point in time.  There is peace within myself to a degree I cannot accurately measure..but I feel the growth..I FEEL period, and this is very new.
I could go on forever, because despite my tiredness i'm on a roll..things are clear tonight.  I am the eye of the storm momentarily..and it "feels" good AND I realize  I can do things in order to feel good as well.  Change is action, as has been stated here before.
I reject perfection, because I know it doesn't exist..at least not here.

It is with a palpable sadness I realize I must reach out, privately and in public life to others because in reflecting on all the years of loneliness and aloneness i've survived at the hands of two very oppressive N parents ( an N regime really!) the only thing that was missing was the opportunity to be valued.

We're all in the same boat aren't we...and I love and respect each and every one of you very much.

Love, Nic :)
All truth passes through 3 stages
First it is ridiculed, second, it is violently opposed,third,it is accepted as being self evident
-Arthur Schopenhauer