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inspired by the "sigh sigh sigh" thread

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Anonymous:
Thank you write and Gingerpeach for your wisdome and experience in that  thread  (not to disclude anyone from this thread),
I wanted to respond to particular posts on "sigh sigh sigh"  but by the time I got back to it, it at turned in another direction. and I didn't want to co-opt where they were going with it.

Gingerpeach: Your concern is so sweet, thank you.  I am holding school together for the last week and a half.  I am going to be done, which is all that matters.  My work isn't exactly top notch.  I am hoping that this summer I can find some other way to deal with this so that my work is better in the fall.  My coping skills, and clarity seem to come and go.

Thank you for your clarity.  Your story always highlights issues between N and I which I chose to ignore on some level.  Recently N was upset with me for not  rewarding him (sexually and verbally) for all of the changes he has been making.  He says he is trying so hard for me, he is loosing himself.  Mind you, I do say thankyou and acknowledge him whenever he does something thoughtful, even when he just  takes out the trash.  That is never enough for him.  More from me would suck all of the life out of me.
I want to tell him not to try to please me if it is going to cause him to lose himself.  What ever happened to loving for the sake of loving? (not for the rewards that would follow)  Is that unrealistic?  Maybe it is with N.  That made it somewhat clear to me that treataing me with respect is very difficult for him, and has not become engrained in his character.

I think you are right.  They are just behavior changes (and probably temproary ones)  He will keep doing them if it gets him what he wants (which I can only assume is a wife who worships the ground he walks on).  When he doesn't get it, he feels despair.  Since I have been upfront with him he is more and more subtly manipulative. This is what I was afraid of, Like in your case, he is still destroying me, just more subtly.  Even complements aren't complements...
The other day he told me he was glad I had a mentor who could articulate my feelings when I coud not.  I said, "I am relatively articulate, so that usually isn't a problem, but it is good to have someone who is on the same page with me in other ways."  He was upset with me for reading into and contradicting what he said.  He was only trying to say something nice to me.  I appologized.  But, later I realized that I was just correcting his perception of me, and there was nothing wrong with that... I did acknowledge his good intention.  And really, on some deep level I think he must not perceive me as very articulate.  Or he is projecting his stuff onto me....  Because why else would he say that?  Oh well, it doesn't matter any more.  

What matters is that I become sharper in detecting and deflecting his N messages... that I hold my ground without feeling terribly guilty when it hurts him.  I hope my options for changing this situation will become clear to me, internally.

Like Write, it is very hard for me to see him as just an N.  I see him as a whole person, who is hurt, who has positive and negative traits, who can heal.  It is very hard for me to understand how he works because I would never, in a million years  work that way.  
*sigh*
Thanks again, sjkravill

sjkravill:
Drats!  I thought I was logged in!
That previous post was me, sjkravill
hope it worked this time!
Peace!

Anonymous:
Dear Sjkravill,

First, you are NOT inarticulate !!!  Not in the least !  You may never know what prompted your H to say that to you,  but I just wanted to make SURE that you don't believe it !   You are extremely expressive, do not doubt that.

It may just be the veiled insult.  Or could it be the backhanded one?  My NH used to lull me into complacency with a compliment, so that I was totally unprepared for the slam dunk.  Gotcha.....  Man, I never saw that truck coming !

So, good for you that you are "articulating" your needs and your desires to your H.  And it is heartening to hear that he is paying attention to your requests and subsequently changing his behavior.  Hey, if he really thinks you are so inarticulate, how come he can understand what you want?  

Although the comment about "feeling like he is losing himself" is somewhat telling.  It rather points up how alien it is for him to behave that way.  Sigh....

And yes, I understand your weariness and impatience with the constant quid pro quo.  See, I was nice.....can we have sex now? And no, I don't think that it is unrealistic to want, to strive for, to settle for less than "loving for the sake of loving."  I'm not sure if anything else can really be considered "loving" anyway.  

As to seeing him as "just an N," I agree with both you and Write.  I don't mean that they are "just an N,"  what I think is that it can't be separated out.  That the Narcissism was woven into the fabric of their self-ness as they developed.  

Think of it like a plaid blanket and the N-ness are all of the black threads.  If you pull all of those black threads out, you still have a blanket.  And depending on how many black threads there were, the holes in the blanket may be miniscule up to enormous.  If it was predominantly a black blanket, well put it this way, don't count on it to keep you warm.

This is where undoing the N-ness is so difficult.  It's really hard to weave in new threads.  I am not saying that I think that it's impossible, just that it takes a very long time and much effort.  It's painstaking handwork.  You can't put it back on the loom.  And you have to be able to see the holes. The repair might take longer than the time it took to weave it in the first place.

This goes back to your very first post where you asked if Narcissism was a spectrum.  And it very definitely is.  This is why so many people on this board recommend reading about it and educating ourselves.  How else can we determine the pattern in the blanket ?  And then, or concurrently, come to know our own needs and decide whether or not we are willing to freeze.

On another note, I am glad to hear that your schoolwork is going well.  And don't worry about it being perfect.  Give yourself kudos for keeping at it in spite of everything else on your plate !!

Gingerpeach:
Sorry, that was me....Gingerpeach.  I finally officially "joined" tonight (big step for me !)  And wouldn't you know it.....not logged on, my very first "official" post !!

sjkravill:
Gingerpeach, Welcome! (in regards to your membership!)

Thank you again for your wisdom and helpful metaphors.

The blanket with holes in it.... That's exactly it.  
I keep struggling with my role, as "lover" and "therapist." I keep feeling a little resent about being the one to have to re-train him, in a way. IF I am successful as his therapist, and can pull out and replace all of the N threads, how long will that take?  and how much damage will I have suffered?  Will the harm to me be repairable in that I can trust him enough to be his lover?

He was angry with me again last night.  To my relief he went out for the evening. I was going to bed just as he was coming back.  He laid down next me, staring at the cealing. He often does this right before he is going to give he hell.  So, I had this foreboding feeling. (actually I had sort of known this was coming all day)  
Then,
N: "sweetie, are you going to sleep"
Me: "That was my intent."
N: *sigh*  *sigh* ....... *loud sigh*
Me: "I guess we can talk, but not for long because I am really tierd."
N: "When are we going to be intimate again?"
Me: "You know I can't answer that question"
N:  "you don't ever kiss me back"
Me: "I do kiss you back"
N: "it's the 'lets just be friends'/ 'get away from me kiss'"
Me:  "could there be other messages in it than that?"
N: a half hour or so worth of: "It has been so incredibly long" "No couple goes 7 months without sex" "most couples have make up sex within 7 minutes"  "I could not have done anything so god-awful to you to warent you curling up into fetal position every time I come near you" (the truth is, that's a conditioned response to him) "I am a man, this need is hard wired"  "you are the one who chose to be celebate." "You take longer to heal than anyone I know"  "Whereas you need a good marriage before you can have sex, I need sex in order to be a good husband"  "I don't know how much longer I can do this"  "I have these mood swings because of the lack of sex."
"I feel like I am playing by your rules"  "I don't get any information from you"
Me:  So, you're playing by my rules, but you don't get any information?  That seems like a contradiction...
N:  Don't use that reflective listening crap with me.
Me:  I am just trying to be sure that I understand you.
N:  I don't need that.  It will drive me crazy.
Me:  I can't talk anymore, I need to sleep
N: talks for another 15 minutes, more of the same
N:  You have time to see your friend tomorrow, but no time to even go for a walk with me.
Me:  I have to study for finals.  I am only seeing her tomorrow because we are graduating and she is moving away.
Me:  I said I am done with this conversation
N: "I love yous" mixed with more berating of my self/behavior
Me: I turn off the light, take a sleeping pill, set my alarm, and turn over.
N: finally leaves the room

After this conversation, I felt incredibly guilty... Like a horrible woman for withholding sex.  I no longer knew if I was doing the right thing, I could no longer think for myself. Am I just being self-righteous?  If I did give him sex, it would be about him and not us.  There really is no garuntee that sex would make our marriage better, is there?

The next day he is sorry for hurting my feelings.
I asked him if he even knows what he said that was so hurtful?
He did not, but the next time this comes up he will be more careful not to talk to me while he is angry.
Truthfully, we have been round and round on this.  He knows where I stand.  I have asked for respect, and space for healing.  
We are at an impass and I don't want to talk about it anymore.

Today he is very sweet to me, and I am wary of him, and at the same time I like him again.  I have such a difficult time with conflict that I want to believe his fantasies of the "ideal marriage" almost as much as he does.
I beat myself up for not seeing the forrest through the trees.

Wow!  I guess that turned into more venting/processing than anything.  I do  thank you for listening with patience.  It really helps to replay it, in that I can see manipulation more clearly... I think.  I know, it helps to feel heard. And I always appreciate you all's insight.

Peace, sjkravill

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