Confronting a person with boundary confusion

[lighter]

Thanks lighter.  The responses moved me from frustrated to LOL.  I love that new perspective.

Lighter saying of the day......

'Your altitude is determined by your attitute.'

I think it's at least partially true: )

Laughing is almost always better than feeling frutrated and ticked off: /

[Gaining Strength]

"You are unrealistically demanding that he be perfect, " 

And more:  "I can't hurt you emotionally unless you let me, so if you get hurt, that's your problem."

Yeah, I get these same responses.  It is easy to dissect someone else's writing and it has been fun here too.  But it also has been helpful.  I truly believe that Paul is a kind and caring person.  I am certain that he did not intend this manipulation.  He does indeed want to share his interests but I suspect that he is unaware of how he was being manipulative and coercive.  Wouldn't it have been nice if he could have said, "Oops, didn't mean to be manipulative.  Let me try that again.  I get that your not interested in the breathing exercises would you like to have a cup of coffee and talk about the Ruiz book?"  That would have been a welcome response.

[CB123]

ooooh!  What an interesting interchange, GS!

I see a guy who desperately wants intimacy but is afraid to ask for it straightforwardly, and instead using high-sounding philosophies and ideas to come around the back!  He probably is manipulative the way we all are (as in, how can I get what I want in this situation and at the same time save face if I get rejected).

You handled it well, GS.  Very calmly.  It's what I like about email--you don't have to send your first draft! (thank goodness--my first drafts are always horrible).

Love
CB

[Hopalong]

Great job, GS.
For me iin 3D friendships when there's conflict or misunderstanding, if one email exchange doesn't resolve it, I have to stop emailing and see or talk to the person.

I have been submerged in exhausting deconstructions/postmortems like this off and on over the years and I have to say, few of those relationships are still vital.

CB:
You mean running down the street screaming at the sky wait! wait! come baaaaaaaack! doesn't work for email?
Dang.

Hops

[Certain Hope]

CB,
or GS (if you're not tired of talking about this... if so, I'd sure understand)
or Hops?

Could you please try to explain to me how we can conclude from all this that the man is just performing ordinary human manipulations in order to save face?

I'm confused... which is nothing new, but I'd really like to try to understand this one.

Reading the first letter, I thought... okay, this is odd, but so what? No harm in his trying... and it didn't seem so concerning, except for that bit about pre-empting any objections which may come about.

It's his latest response which really alerted my reactive warnings, because he didn't just say, "Oh, I can see how you might have felt that way!" or  "Oh, my goodness, no! I would never want to offend you... I'm so sorry!"  I mean, I can appreciate his not wanting to admit straight out if what he really wanted was more physical intimacy, but... I don't even sense any regret in his response.

Am I missing something?

Thanks.

Love,
Hope

[Gaining Strength]

Yeah CH, I do see him as a gentle soul and I know he is a wounded person as am I and as are many of us here.  I truly believe that he is acting out of that wound rather than out of his enlightenment (which I think he believes is his basis.)  But when I look again at his response I see this: My words are offered only for contemplation and I am aware that I am not perfect.

Actually his words were not offered for contemplation, they were offered for action: the exercises.  And as you pointed out earlier the "I am not perfect" response is a very defensive one. 

You are asking a question that I can't quite get a handle on.  I am struck that he did not address my primary point - that boundaries used to avoid emotional pain are legitimate and instead actually (you helped me see this) defends his actions.  So is taking this apart an exercise in looking for a villain?  Or is it figuring out what is a realistic boundary and when you feel your boundaries crossed can you resolve that issue with a dialogue.  What is reasonable in this process?  Are we, because of our wounds, too sensitive and expecting too much of someone else?  (Hasn't that thought gotten me into trouble in the past!!!!) 

I'm glad you didn't let this go.  I think this boundary issue is very important as we move forward.  I don't have any answers but I am thankful that we are discussing it here.  Thanks - GS

[Certain Hope]

Dear GS,

Npd-ex appeared to be a very gentle, sensitive soul... as long as I didn't say "no"... and I wonder,
is this the first time you've ever said "no" to Paul?

And I don't believe that there are near as many villains to be unwrapped as we may fear, when in the first stages of realization re: abuse. I really don't.
I think that most people are quite harmless, in and of themselves, provided we maintain realistic expectations within ourselves and learn to fine tune our own boundaries.

But still, this line concerns me:
"My words are offered only for contemplation and I am aware that I am not perfect."

That could mean: "I only wanted you to know that I am most interested in pursuing these breathing exercises with you, although I know that I fall short as an ideal man for you."
But I think that's a stretch, because truly... the fact is, this sentence makes little sense to me. I mean, this may seem silly, but I've noticed, even from a grammatical standpoint, disordered minds don't produce sensible phrases. Here we have the positioning of the conjunction "and" between two seemingly unrelated thoughts... again, unless I'm missing something. Sounds like "word salad" to me.

His lack of addressing your primary concern is the most obvious element of all, though.
Is he most concerned with defending his reason and right to have made this inappropriate advance?
Wouldn't a genuinely gentle soul be more concerned with how this exchange has left you feeling?

I don't have the full picture of what's reasonable in this process, GS. Sure wish I did. I do think, however, that it's wise to re-consider the terms under which we'd noted a person's character as new evidence comes to light. NPD-ex came across as the endearing, wounded, dog-loving, helpful guy next door who loved to speak to me in Spanish and read me poetry... ahh, so gentle. Not.

It's not that I think Paul is a villain, GS... just that I'm not sure whether the adjective gentle fits him, based on what you've shared of his writing. I guess only time will tell?

Love,
Hope

[NoMoreMindGames]

GS,

i haven't read the other replies on this thread, but this is what immediately stood out to me as a HUGE red flag:

"however if we are trying to protect
ourselves from emotional harm, then we are misplaced in our efforts. Emotional
harm is only in the mind and is a result of our own delusions about what is
right. "

i think it's good you've kept this guy at arm's length.  anyone who says something like that sounds to me like they're emotional abusers.  he'd use this line with you once he hurt you...."oh, it's a delusion, it's all in your mind.  it's not real".  blah blah blah.

pseudoscience!  and rubbish!

[teartracks]

Hi,

Saying this makes me feel like a spoilsport, but I believe  this man's gig is to get his subjects caught up in chasing illusions.   Dig all you want, but not much lies beyond what he has already revealed.  Still feeling like a spoilsport, I think he is a shallow pond!

tt

[Gaining Strength]

Over the past year we have gotten together 6 or so times, either he has come by (3 or 4 times) or we have met at a park & pizza joint or a science museum.  The rest of communication has been via phone or e-mail - and not frequently.  But even way back last September when he came by he brought a bunch of books to look at and the last one was a different yoga-sex book.

That's my problem - we've gotten together, had conversations but not even been on what I would call a "date" and on more than one occassion he has handed me what would be considered by most accounts "suggestive" coupling images.  I've finally lived long enough to sort out my priorities - emotional intimacy must precede physical intimacy.  Both of these yoga books have made me uncomfortable.  And while I couldn't figure out whether to address the issue or not - then comes the e-mail with yet another hindu image with talks about these "breathing" exercises which were under a section in the book entitled "couples".

In the end the discomfort that these books and images cause me is what matters.  I gave it a chance to see if perhaps he might get beyond this stuff but I realize he was probably waiting to see if I would get beyond my resistance.  Nice guy, not interested.

PS - We know a number of people in common and this past spring one mutual friend said he heard I was "dating" someone.  "Absolutely NOT," I replied.  and at Valentine's Day he brought a few trinkets by and said that he had some things for me even though he knew we were not an item.  It was sweet.  I took him for his word - we are not an item.  Oh well - live and learn.  Nothing ventured nothing gained.  But this time I really did learn something and absolutely nothing was lost.

Wish he had acknowledged the boundary problem in his logic.  C'est la vie.

[Certain Hope]

Dear GS,

It all makes good sense to me. Just one note, please, before you wrap this up in your mind...

In your last post, you've just repeated a phrase which you used in your first reply to Paul, referring to your very legitimate concerns and boundaries as...
"my problem".
I don't think you have a problem, GS. Not a bit.

Love,
Hope

[Gaining Strength]

Believe it or not there is more:

Here are three paragraphs from a 6 paragraph reply.  I don't think I will reply but I am interested in examining his thoughts one more time.  It really helps me sort things out.

#1Thank you for being tolerant of my poor communication skills and giving me a
chance to explain. In the first letter I was attempting to let you know what I
was working on, and find out what areas you would be interested in so we could
work on those. I will still teach martial arts at 5-6 two days per week in the park. Sometimes
Elaine comes as well as Bill. We do cover some of the yoga breathing as it is
helpful to practice. I would always like to cover new methods of yoga breathing
as they seem to have countless methods. Martial arts is mostly about breathing
and breath control, there is not a single movement that is done without doing
the correct breathing associated with that movement.

    [#2]  My intention was to only do a series of exercise mentioned in a book from the
golden temple who teaches a course that is similar in nature to the book. Both
Kundalina yoga and white tantra are offered at the golden temple and I would
like to take lessons there because they have a course to become a certified
instructor. If I can find the time and the 2500.00 this course should cover the
areas I wish to explore. I will of course only impart the knowledge to those who
wish it, so as not to offend anyone.
   
 #3 The most important thing is the intention of people. It is difficult to tell
the intent of others and I understand that my intentions were not clear. So let
me say for the record: Any suggestions I make are suggestions only for your
contemplation. If they are not to your liking I will go out of my way not to
mention them again. As I now know your personal "line" I will not be crossing
that one again.

Authentic - of course you were right. He has an answer for every thing.

CH - there really is no point in replying.  If this statement were true he would have simply dropped the whole discussion and moved on. Any suggestions I make are suggestions only for your
contemplation. If they are not to your liking I will go out of my way not to
mention them again.  Or he would have made a different suggestion.  Why does he say "will go out of my way"

In #1 he has used "breathing" exercises in a way that I had originally interpreted the phrase but that is not at all what was in the book with the frontal hugging "couples" exercises.  If I were truly better I would have let this go a long time ago but I am only on my way.  This makes me mad because it is somehow related to something I have experienced in the past.  His meaning changes with the conversation.  As someone said eariler - I guarantee Paul won't be doing those "hugging" breathing exercises with Bill in the park.

I have no idea what all #2 is about unless it is a response to my comment that I am only interested in breathing exercises done in any public center.  I think he is trying to suggest that because that book came from a store where they teach kundalina and tantra that everything in that book therefore passes my "stink" test.  Now that is twisted logic and that makes me mad.

I was not interested in a romantic involvement but now I see that "friendship" is not really possible either.  There is some lack of forthrightness and I am not willing nor able to plug into that now. 

I am disappointed and irritated.  I ask myself why and I know the answer.  If he had gotten my first reply and come back with somethig like - "I hear you.  There are tons of other such exercises.  Come to the park where we are doing martial arts and participate with the group."  Now that would have been a different kind of answer.  Instead I get - "well I didn't say I wanted to do intimate couples breathing I simply said you should contemplate it and that boundaries aren't for emotional things because Ruiz says you decide who hurts you and ............blah, blah, blah."

Now that makes me mad.  I'm tired of bumping into the same old stuff.  Surely there is more to bump into out there in the world.

[Certain Hope]

Dear GS,

REALLY Big sigh...  that's what I get from it...
big spiel, all about him and his interests as a wanna-be-guru.

Backpeddling in #1 (maybe he finally woke up and realized how defensive he sounded last time)

"You'll regret not being a part of all that I'm gonna be" in #2 =  foo foo  reminiscent of "you don't know what you're missing."

And #3 -  "Well, you can't prove my previous intentions, so nana na boo boo to you!  You want anything further to do with me, you know where you can find me. Let me know if you change your mind."

I don't think he needs a letter assignment or even that he's necessarily disordered... just stuck on himself.
What did tt say?  Shallow pond. Now if there continues to be more and more... then we might look further into assigning him a letter 

((((((((GS))))))))   I'm sorry about this disappointment. I've met alot of these characters in Christian circles who came across initially as tender-hearted, spiritual folks but really only used their religion to prop up their self-appointed "master" status. Each new lesson learned puts a certain glimmer into your eye that this sort recognizes... as they veer off out of awareness that their stuff won't work with you, the genuine articles will have room to approach.

Much love to you,
Hope

[Gaining Strength]

Certain Hope - thanks for sticking with me on this.  It has been such a helpful exchange.  I have grown enough and healed enough to learn some lessons I didn't learn earlier in life.  This thread has been like going back to teenage years and learning how to navigate social waters.  I feel like I am doing it much better.  I know why I get hung up on certain things - old habits from growing up N. 

In this case Paul said some things and meant another and when I pointed my flashlight on it the meaning and intent shifted.  I don't think he is malicioius but wounded.  We all are wounded but how that wound manifests in our day to day life is the question.  And for what ever reason Paul is not as aware of the consequences of his wounds as he thinks.  He really is a kind person but not as straightforward nor as self-aware as I would like.  Those two issues are significant for me because of my history with Ns.  He is not an N but the Ns in my life were anything but straightforward and wholly lacking in self-awareness and the result of those issues has been significant pain and suffering for me.  Now I can identify those issues with the help of you and others here.  That is very, very good news and a great comfort and encouragement to me.  Thanks ever so much for sticking with me to sort this out.

your friend - Gaining Strength

[lighter]

CB:
You mean running down the street screaming at the sky wait! wait! come baaaaaaaack! doesn't work for email?
Dang.

Hops

Oh....

::sigh::

Man...

that is just funny, lol.