Confronting a person with boundary confusion

[Gaining Strength]

Don't you think you're irritated 'cuz this is too similar to your mom?

Oh yeah - absolutely.

When you posted about this before, was this one of the things that sparked a discussion about monogamy?

I am not sure Cat's Paw.

When he gave me the iggghhs it was when Paul said:
"I will only impart the knowledge to..." etc.

You know that really gets to the bottom of what I think has worn thin in this budding friendship.  When we talk he will "teach" me something and I will comment and he will "correct" me.  Hey! I have an opinion too.

I think what hes doing, unconsciously or otherwise, is trying to get to a place with you where you are vulnerable and defer to his way of thinking.

Yes Bella.  This is exactly what I now think.  He wants to "teach" me.  But as with Ns it is not a relationship if it is not a give and take.  And quite frankly I am not looking for a teacher.  Now I see that over the months he has not been interested in receiving my thoughts or perspectives.  And that is not a relationship.  I think he really wants an audience.  Perhaps thats why the freindship never really bloomed.

Boy does it help to work things out here.  I have much more insight than before.  It is the give and take that I long for.  It definitely was not available here.  That's what the problem is with this line Open your  heart to me and I will fill you with
love.   That is not a relationship.  That is a kind of dominance.  At best it is a parent-child.  Equals don't "fill [one another] up" that give and receive.  I fill my son with love because I brought him into this world and gave him life and expect nothing back from him at his stage.  But that doesn't work with equals.  Thanks all.

[Certain Hope]

  It is the give and take that I long for.  It definitely was not available here.  That's what the problem is with this line Open your  heart to me and I will fill you with love.  
That is not a relationship.  That is a kind of dominance.  At best it is a parent-child.  Equals don't "fill [one another] up" that give and receive.  I fill my son with love because I brought him into this world and gave him life and expect nothing back from him at his stage.  But that doesn't work with equals.  Thanks all.

Wow, GS... that's it!  That is it !! Exactly.

Look at what you've accomplished here, in defining the most basic foundation of all functional relationships.
I could go on and on identifying what I didn't want, didn't like, didn't feel was right, but I couldn't seem to lay that groundwork.
Thank you!

This is what I want, as well. The give and receive in sharing, not the "you must recognize that you're not complete until/unless you deal with me".
Do you know how many of my unsatisfying relationships have been so out of balance? All of them... all out of sync because I'm supposed to acknowledge and accept and receive but the other has no interest in receiving from me... no sense of my being valuable as an independent entity.
And you know... the same goes for any part/aspect of myself which tries to tell me that I "must" allow it to dominate or else I'm lacking.
Hogwash.
All those little personality segments need to harmonize too, receiving from each other in that give and take flow, or else somebody's going down.

ooo... thank you ((((((((Gaining Strength)))))))   

With love,
Hope

[Gaining Strength]

Thanks Certain Hope,

This has been a very valuable process for me.  I am making certain strides and am thankful.  It helps me deal with some of the old entrenched anxieties.

[teartracks]

Hi bean and all,

Bean, I agree this is a great thread.  I look back on it and how about midway, I, in so many words, and in my glib fashion, dusted my hands off and dismissed this guy.  Then I read along as what he said was dissected by the others and was pretty amazed at how they shed light on and gave expression to important facets of the things he said.  I finally got it that this was about GS's need to have a good give and take shake down about it all.  I'm learning so much from that girl! 

tt 

[Certain Hope]

Boyfriend and I had couple's therapy again yesterday..  Therapist proceeded to explain that men "correct, and give advice" while women "explain feelings, hoping to get empathy."
So there is a disconnect here, and it can appear quite hopeless.  But, don't fret, cause that's just the way men and women are.
[all can be proud I did not Hmppfff and say Baloney!]


I am still trying to wrap (warp?) my mind around that one.

bean

Dear Bean,

Yup... men are problem solvers. They don't want to hear all the details, just the bottom line, and that can seem quite dismissive... but there's no ill intent.
Just the way they're wired.

However, speaking from personal experience here... if both man and woman are aware of each other's inclinations (hard-wiring) and needs (men have emotional needs, too, o yes they do)
.... and if neither man nor woman will latch onto resentment toward the other for being different, but rather accept the inherent tendancies of each other as biological fact (because it is)
.... then there can be a genuine give and take and growth of intimacy.

I don't expect to get the quantity of emotional rapport/relations with my husband as I can get through talking with another woman, but the quality can be there, with respectful understanding and appreciation of the differences between us.

When I really need to talk, I'll preface my statement with: "I'm not looking for you to fix this, okay?"  and he gets the picture.
Funny thing is, I tend to try to "fix' when he talks, too, so I have to take heed of the same stuff.

Hope

[lighter]

I do not seek rewards on this earth, things that we think that we own are only
ours for this lifetime. ... Open your  heart to me and I will fill you with
love. This will not cost you anything, and will not prevent you from following
any path you choose. I will not demand that you see me exclusively or love only
me. If you meet someone that cares for you and loves you I will only be happy
for you. [/i]

I got this e-mail in March .....

Dear GS,

I was away from the board in March and never saw this one... oy vey!
Hope

I believe he wants her to open more than her heart.... so he can fill her with more than his love.  Oy Vey, is right: /

Blech.....

yes, lol.....

again: )

[Certain Hope]

Hi Besee,

I understand what you've said in your post, just wanted to put in another bit on this...
I don't feel dumb, stupid, or like a small child when talking with my husband... and I don't feel that he views me as inferior just because I don't function in the same way as he does.
By the same token, I feel a responsibility to not look down upon his style of handling things... and to not take offense at the fact that his framework of viewing issues and problems varies from my own.
Understanding our different make-ups actually removes the element of competition for superiority, because it's no longer a matter of right ways vs. wrong ways, or greater/lesser... just different.

 It's important to me that I haven't abdicated my responsibility to be his mate - in the context of giving counsel and accountability issues - and I don't want him to stop trying to advise me - because I do need that at times -... and that's exactly what I see would happen if I insisted that my way of communication was the right way and continually demanded that he change to suit my style. I think then that communication would cease.
What I have recognized (I think) is the wisdom of not setting out my own feelings as the foundation on which I expect him to build. I work to express them, but remain open to the possibility that they're not going to solve anything. So it's about sharing, not expecting him to make me feel better. Of course I end up feeling better (usually) simply because I was able to express those feelings without having him leap in after two sentences with a solution!
 So as I respect his factual approach (by not declaring it wrong) and he respects my feelings and emotional responses (respects them by allowing me to put them out there and not telling me they're wrong), we're able to build a common ground/foundation that's mutual... because we are equal, just different. Sometimes I enjoy his mentoring, too... just not where emotions are involved.. and he does seem to understand that.
Sheesh, I really do need to work at being more concise... lol. See... good thing he's a patient man!

Hope

[Certain Hope]

Hi again, Besee,

You're welcome... but I don't think I've expressed what I meant very well.
Seems like the more I try to feel what's going on within me, the harder it gets to write, as though it takes me to a different level... maybe back to grade school.  I hope you won't mind if I try again here.

Just recently I realized that I had some skewed notions of what empathy really is. I always thought it meant to actually feel someone else's emotions... and now I know that's not right.
So when I read what you've said about "a deep understanding of feelings", I think that I need to qualify that.
My husband does understand that there are times when he's not being asked to fix, but only to hear and help me to talk through my feelings. Actually, he's a big part of the reason why I'm beginning to understand this better now, but anyway...
that doesn't mean that he always understands my feelings... just that he's willing to hear and acknowledge them and usually, that's all it takes, because I'm not holding him responsible for how I feel... only needing him to be a sounding board.
And I fear that I'm still not conveying what I mean... argh.
I guess it's about the difference between understanding and acknowledgement. I'm the first to admit that I don't understand some of my own feelings... which is a big part of the reason why I've often failed to acknowledge them. Does that help?
In other words, he doesn't "approve" or "disapprove" them, just recognizes that they're affecting me and that alone helps to release them.

About Rosenburg's book... I have trouble seeing "consoling" and "sympathizing" as life alienating communications... I don't get it.
 Sometimes that's all anyone can do, isn't it? The very best anyone can do, I'd think. At least I'd have been glad for it so many times.

This is all such foreign ground for me, Besee.. so much of this is stuff I should have learned years ago and didn't... but I want to now.
And I know exactly what you mean about all that judging... my goodness, I'm just thankful to have people willing to listen and maybe even take the time to ask a question or two, because most of the time, that's what it takes for me to dig out what's lies beneath... which is why this board is so very wonderful.
You wrote:  "it is about respecting others and differences in others and not making people "bad" for being different."

Exactly. As I unlearn all the lessons taught me by my mother, that is what is left.  Respecting differences, not demanding anyone be x,y, or z for me... because I said so.

Best to you, too, Besee... thank you so much for writing back.

Hope

[Bella_French]

Perhaps the way a guy acts just comes down to a combination of  age, personality and influences? I think there is a place for the `men are from mars' kind of guys; to me it is a matter of personal taste whether this is the kind of guy/ relationship you are after or not. I do not think this is the only type of guy though.

Maybe because of my work and the social circles I've travelled in, I have known many men who are comfortable talking about their feelings, expressing their emotions, nurturing, and being stay at home Dads. They are usually gentler, more sensitive men; followers more than leaders, and rarely very materialistic. In my experience there are more men like this `coming out' , and I suspect its because career women more readily accept them and value their emotional support, even if they are not great cash cows.

I think my fiance is more like this. I didn't really go for men like him in my twenties (although they were around), because I think i was looking for a man who would look after me financially, and who was more of a `leader'. And I was ` wired' to be fascinated with NPD guys, so no wonder gentle nurturing men were not appealing to me.

My conclusion about men is that it is a mistake to expect everything from a guy in one package.

[JanetLG]

Bella,

" I have known many men who are comfortable talking about their feelings, expressing their emotions, nurturing, and being stay at home Dads. They are usually gentler, more sensitive men; followers more than leaders, and rarely very materialistic. In my experience there are more men like this `coming out' , and I suspect its because career women more readily accept them and value their emotional support, even if they are not great cash cows."

This sounds like my husband, except for the last bit...he's very good at the 'providing' part, (but then, so am I, so we do that bit equally  )

I think part of the myth of 'New Man' is that they can be ONE or the OTHER, but never a mixture of emotional AND effective in the work environment, so some men might shy away from being labelled as 'New' because they think they'd therefore be seen as effeminate in some way. I'd agree, though, that this type of male (in my husband's case, anyway), is not at all materialistic. His idea of things like buying clothes is like' Why do I need another jumper? I've already got one.'

HUH?   ONE???!!!

I'm glad your fiance is more New than Old, it's a good way to be, IMO.

Janet

[dandylife]

Hope, you wrote,

"About Rosenburg's book... I have trouble seeing "consoling" and "sympathizing" as life alienating communications... I don't get it.
 Sometimes that's all anyone can do, isn't it? The very best anyone can do, I'd think. At least I'd have been glad for it so many times."


I think what they mean by alienating is that once you sympathize (I've always heard it's 'pity') or console someone, it puts you "one up" on them. As if you are above them, all objective, and you somehow are in a place to "make" them feel better. I am here - you are there - thus alienation.

Empathy is not pity.

Empathy is oh my god if I were having this thing that happened to you happen to me I would feel that same thing I'm sure and because I can see you are feeling that I am feeling 1/10 or less of that emotion and it makes me want to ....cry, scream, rage, punch....whatever....just like you are. But I'm not you and I'm not the one going through this so I can only be here for you and acknowledge your pain and be grateful that I'm NOT in your shoes.

Dandylife

[Certain Hope]

Hope, you wrote,

"About Rosenburg's book... I have trouble seeing "consoling" and "sympathizing" as life alienating communications... I don't get it.
 Sometimes that's all anyone can do, isn't it? The very best anyone can do, I'd think. At least I'd have been glad for it so many times."


I think what they mean by alienating is that once you sympathize (I've always heard it's 'pity') or console someone, it puts you "one up" on them. As if you are above them, all objective, and you somehow are in a place to "make" them feel better. I am here - you are there - thus alienation.

Empathy is not pity.

Empathy is oh my god if I were having this thing that happened to you happen to me I would feel that same thing I'm sure and because I can see you are feeling that I am feeling 1/10 or less of that emotion and it makes me want to ....cry, scream, rage, punch....whatever....just like you are. But I'm not you and I'm not the one going through this so I can only be here for you and acknowledge your pain and be grateful that I'm NOT in your shoes.

Dandylife

Wow, Dandy... I am definitely struggling under a confusion of terms.
See.. I've always thought of pity as having connotations of condescension... and sometimes even contempt;
 but to try to console a person, I thought was to offer hugs and a listening ear, and to remind her that it'll be alright.
 Isn't it consoling my child when he falls and skins his knee and I tend to him and offer him comfort?
 Or is that the problem... adults can rightfully console children but not other adults?
Sheesh, I am feeling dense.

According to my previous (wrong!) definition of empathy, I was directly placing myself into the other person's shoes and feeling 100% for them when possible....
And then I'd try to console someone when I didn't have the ability to relate to what he was going through (because I couldn't imagine)...
if that makes sense.
 
Sure hope to get this straight some time soon. Thanks so much for helping me!
I love your definition of empathy, by the way. It was that bit of recent understanding info which began to free me from loads of bondage withiin enmeshed relationships.

With love,
Hope

[dandylife]

Hope,
I think alot of people make this mistake when trying to make others feel better.

Has anyone ever said to you, "there, there. It'll be okay." How did it make you feel?

Or the worst, "I know how you feel." I've seen people go from sad or grief-stricken to enraged and angry and yelling, "You do NOT know how I feel!"

After dealing with a borderline (read: high-strung emotional mess) for 2 decades, and making all these mistakes, I finally asked what should I do?

He said ask, "Is there anything I can do to help?"

Or, just metaphorically jump to his side like a partner holding hands and say, "what a jerk!" (so many incidents and emotional flare ups are about what other people said or did to "hurt" him. I made the huge mistake of trying to justify or explain away others' mysterious behaviors - to no avail - and making things worse. Now, I have a new mantra, "what a jerk!" And he feels so understood!

Hope some of this helps.

Also, with kids - yes, they are deserving of our consoling at times, but I like the words comfort and soothing better. Make them more comfortable and soothe their hurt bodies and hurt feelings.

I guess it's not that different for adults - we nurture those we love in the most mothering ways, don't we?

Dandylife

[dandylife]

GS,

Just wanted to reply to you about your thread (knocking self on head):

In reply 59, Bella French stated,

"Paul seems to be very interested getting the upper hand in his friendship with you, don't you think?  He seems to intuitively sense that the key to getting the upper hand with you is to get you to forfeit your boundaries, if not convince you that you are downright faulty for having any. I think what hes doing, unconsciously or otherwise, is trying to get to a place with you where you are vulnerable and defer to his way of thinking. Maybe he thinks physical intimacy or sex will give him the leverage he needs. But anyway, I think its really about power. Why do you think he wants power in your relationship? Could it be his natural impulse, or do you think he is challenged by your way of thinking and lack of deference  and has become insecure? Or some other reason? Its food for thought."

In my opinion, if this guy is saying all this stuff to you in email, he's got a definite problem with these things:

1 - grandiose sense of self

2 - wants the last word

3 - thinks you'll be impressed

4 - underlying insecurity (he is NOT saying these things to your face)

These are not things to say to someone important to you in EMAIL. These are also not things you'd take the time to say to someone who is NOT important to you.

So, if you're not important to him, then he has an extremely inappropriate sense of what your relationship is. If you ARE important to him, then I suggest you tell him that if he has something important like this to say to you, you'd like to discuss it face to face so that you can dialogue and not be given a monologue to read. (!)

He sounds like an interesting fellow, obviously well read. But I can't get over that self-importance that comes through clearly. I'd say big yellow warning signal, unless in person you guys give and take in conversations well.

Just an opinion! Have fun getting to know him better but keep your boundaries rigid!

Dandylife

[Certain Hope]

Hope,
I think alot of people make this mistake when trying to make others feel better.

Has anyone ever said to you, "there, there. It'll be okay." How did it make you feel?

Or the worst, "I know how you feel." I've seen people go from sad or grief-stricken to enraged and angry and yelling, "You do NOT know how I feel!"

After dealing with a borderline (read: high-strung emotional mess) for 2 decades, and making all these mistakes, I finally asked what should I do?

He said ask, "Is there anything I can do to help?"

Or, just metaphorically jump to his side like a partner holding hands and say, "what a jerk!" (so many incidents and emotional flare ups are about what other people said or did to "hurt" him. I made the huge mistake of trying to justify or explain away others' mysterious behaviors - to no avail - and making things worse. Now, I have a new mantra, "what a jerk!" And he feels so understood!

Hope some of this helps.

Also, with kids - yes, they are deserving of our consoling at times, but I like the words comfort and soothing better. Make them more comfortable and soothe their hurt bodies and hurt feelings.

I guess it's not that different for adults - we nurture those we love in the most mothering ways, don't we?

Dandylife

Dear Dandylife,

I really had to think about this, because I can't recall ever receiving much in the way of "there, there, it'll be okay".
My husband is the only person in my life who's ever really asked me about my feelings... and he has said something to that effect, back when we were newlyweds and npd-ex was seeking vengeance by dragging me through the court under contempt charges.
And I do recall how I felt... dismissed. He didn't get the whole npd thing and the reasons for my deep concern. He viewed N as just a cheap con-artist... until the end, when he finally did see the whole picture more clearly.

But I've said that myself, when I've felt overwhelmed by someone's grief... I didn't know. I guess the best to be said is, "I'm here... I'll listen".
And I've encountered the reactions to "I know how you feel"... so I can grasp that and see why it's presumptuous and wrong and offensive.

I can sure remember times when all I wanted to hear was a "What a jerk!!"  ... not a story about somebody else's jerky encounter or a solution to the issue. (Although I think it's okay here on the board, at some point, to offer similar stories... for educational purposes, as we all learn together?)

When you set "comfort" and "soothe" next to "console", I see the difference more clearly. Console... minimizes. The others are more... accepting.

Sometimes with this stuff I feel as though I have a learning disability, but I'm getting it... slowly. Thank you so much, Dandy, for taking the time to give me these lessons. I'll be practicing!

With much love,
Hope