Author Topic: Comments please on what this 3,500 word email from my NSister does to you...  (Read 9471 times)

Overcomer

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Here is an interesting respective-when I read that I thought you must be a bad person-then I looked at it from you being like me and a victim yourself.  Then I realized it-this is how my mom speaks of me.  She convinces people that I am the bad one.  She convinces people that I am the one with the prob.  Janet I FEEL FOR YOU.  N PEOPLE HAVE A WAY TO DEFLECT THE RESPONSIBILITY AWAY FROM THEMSELVES AND TURN IT ALL ON YOU!
Kelly

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JanetLG

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Thank you all so much for the validation, and the suggestions, comments & stuff! You have no idea how much that means to me (perhaps you do  :) ).

I felt so vulnerable after posting that last night, that I didn't sleep well at all. That's the worst correspondence I've ever had from her, and although it was about a year ago now, reading it again to post it here did upset me again. I think the idea of a ceremonial burning is great!! (Pity I can't add the sister to the fire, too  :twisted: )

Although this is a bit 'back to front', I have found the letter that I sent to Alf turning down his 'offer' to mediate (I destroyed his original one - sorry!), so that you can assess the tone of what I sent, and what my NSister was responding to :

>>>>>>
Dear Alfred,

I emailed you on Tuesday 29th August, but I haven’t had an automated reply notification, so I am posting you the text, so that I cannot be accused of not responding:



I received your letter today, which I found very upsetting, as I thought that I had made it clear to my relatives and their partners (not including my Dad) that no communication is to be sent to my home address by them.

It is clear from the content of the letter that you have no real knowledge of what took place for years between me and Joan. Do you think that I would have taken the decision to cut off all contact with her lightly? I tried for years to establish a proper relationship with her, but all I got back was abuse, controlling behaviour and interference. Eventually, after eight family therapy sessions (which she told me to get – and pay for – so that I would learn how to ‘fit in’ with the family better, which is NOT what family therapy is!), it was quite clear that the safest thing for me to do, to protect my health, was to withdraw from her for good. I told her this, but she still carried on. Even when I got married, she was threatening not to come unless I was ‘nice’ to her in the run-up to the wedding, and on the day itself, the only thing she said to me all day was, ‘Doesn’t Kay look nice?’. Not really the behaviour of a caring mother.

Your letter refers to ‘misunderstandings’ between me and her in the past – I have to correct you there, as they never were ‘misunderstandings’ – they were areas where we differed, and the problems arose when she would not admit that I had a right to hold a different opinion from her. Sometimes these could be quite trivial, as all relationships tend to have, but sometimes they were very serious, and I bet she hasn’t told you about those. I do wonder if you have the right to know exactly what some of those are, as I shouldn’t have to justify myself, but you are never going to get the full story from her, are you? For instance, she had an affair (probably not the only one), from when I was 12 to when I was 29, and she involved me in keeping it a secret from my dad, which I hated doing. The stress led me to develop anorexia, which I had for 10 years, till I got away from her at the age of 22 and got some freedom. Colluding with her, however unwillingly, seriously affected the relationship I had with my dad, as he, obviously, thought I was doing it by choice. Even now, my relationship with him is quite distant, but better now than it’s ever been. Since he has been with Christine, I have seen an affectionate side of him I never thought he had – when he was with Joan he was ignored for years.

I would have liked to have a normal, caring mother, but I haven’t got that. When I used to tell her not to say I was ugly, for instance, she’d say, ‘Oh, all mothers tell their daughters that.’! When I’ve told other women this, it has made some of them cry.

I decided to stop having any contact with her after a great deal of soul-searching, and I see absolutely no reason to alter my decision, as she has not changed. She has never acknowledged that her behaviour was hurtful – she has always demanded that I change to accommodate her. You say in your letter that you want to make her happy – in that case, you will have to work at getting her to understand that she caused me years of unhappiness, and that I am not going to deal with her, ever. My husband wants to make me happy, too, but if he kept contacting her, telling her to apologise for all the things she said and did, she wouldn’t like it, would she?

Fortunately, I have a wonderful husband in Chris, and two lovely step-children. My life is great now, and I am not constantly stressed out by having to defend myself from Joan’s sarcasm and criticism all the time. It took years to get over what she did to me, and I am not prepared to start going over it all again, just because someone who knows very little of how our dysfunctional family operated wants to ‘make things better’. I’m afraid it just isn’t as simple as that. I object to being told that ‘it is time to put the past behind you’ – I’ll be the judge of that, thank you. The idea that me and Joan might be ‘brought together’ by you, quite frankly, makes the hair stand up on the back of my neck. I appreciate what you are trying to do, but it won’t work. She is too damaged, and I have moved on.

Regards,

Janet

>>>>>

Reading it again, now, it still sounds fair, to me. I do think that Alf might have been 'pressured' by my NMum to send his original letter, as some of the phrases he used sounded more like thay way she'd have said things (in fact, EXACTLY like the way she'd have said things!), so I don't know how much he's to blame for initiating his letter, really.  After I'd sent the letter I've copied above, and after I'd got my sisiter's response, I did get a second letter from him, very brief, washing his hands of me because of my 'lies and distortions' which he said he'd discussed with 'friends and family'. He said he had 'no wish' to correspond again.

Then, six months later, he wrote again, enclosing photos of when I was little, to 'remind me of happier times'.

AARRGGHHH!!!



Janet

Bella_French

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Hugs to you Janet. Super-hugs! (if there is such a  thing) That was so, so awful to read, and thank you for trusting us with it. I know its so hard dealing with all those horrible lies, and wondering if they will be believed by anyone who reads them. I worry about that kind of thing too. Don't worry, hon; we all all know about N's hear and how much they lie (and how much it hurts).

I am so sorry that you have a sister like that. You made the right decision about keeping her out of your life for so long!.

After reading her letter, it was obvious that she wasn't making any sense and that she has an agenda. Truth is not even a issue with this woman; she is speaking crap to get what she wants, whatever that may be (your mother's approval perhaps?).  She comes across as not terribly bright, and as a bully.

I am so sorry you received that letter. you are so beautiful and you don't deserve that sort of treatment at all. Theres no point in responding to those lies; I think someone like that is best abandoned.

X Bella






Ami

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Dear Janet,
  I want to echo what dear Bella said, "Thank you for trusting us with that deep(and awful) part of your history. It was a big "risk" on your part. We are still so vulnerable inside from the damage and invalidation that we got from the N mother( and family)
I think that your e mail helped everyone to see more of their own lives.
 Your e mail gave me insight in to Beth's situation.Your e mail ,probably, really helped her to deal with her current situation(I would think).
 It really helped me to face my M in a deeper way. I can see what people mean when they tell me that my posts help them.
 When someone really shares from the heart, we all seem to be a little lighter. Our burdens seem to be laid down ,a little bit. I guess God made us( as humans) to need  relationships and emotional intimacy with others.
   My son(golden) and I were talking about that last night.
 It would be so "easy",in a way, to just be alone. I really see from your letter how much I need people-- to give and receive.
 Thank you so much, Janet
   I wanted to respond to your e mail to Alf.
  What hit me( funny) was that it could be a standard letter to an N mother-- like they have standard legal documents. It could be a form letter telling an an mother why you have to go NC.
 I saw the similarities in N mothers( and the people they engage to do their "dirty work).
They get people(Alf, my M's secretary) to call us and make a plea that we should connect with our mothers. They (subtly) put the blame of us b/c a mother and daughter"should" be close.
 You can tell that the person is just a "parrot" for the mother.(or new supply)
  The other thing that struck me was that there is ONLY one reality to the N mother--- THEIRS. You are a traitor, insane, sick etc if you even try to say that their reality is not "normal".
   Vaknin talks about this. The  N's define "normality" in the family. You will be severely 'chastised" if you dare to try to say that their idea of normal is not "right".(this ,for me, was the worst part of the N mother)
 Janet, THIS one really, really got me. When your mother said that all mothers tell their children that they are ugly. That hits the "top".
   My mother said, 'All mothers abuse their children." I remember the unreality I felt when she told me that.
 Also, they send you some memento about "happier times in the past". My M sent me a child's type of flannel night gown(Lanz) that I used to have when I was a child. It made me feel cozy even though my life with her was "cold".
  She sent me an adult size one with a note,"Hope that you can remember happier times' She also sent me a Raggedy Ann doll. Mine was so "tear stained" from crying about her that it fell apart.
    Janet, You were the one with courage in that family. For me, the ONLY way that I can make sense of my pain is to realize that it brought me to God. It was worth it b/c of that.
  Otherwise(for me), I can not face  it. There is so, so much. I am so sorry that you had to endure this. They really tried to squelch your "magnificence" (as Mandela says). They tried to squelch a "bright light's " spirit.
   I see that they did not succeed, though. I, for one, am so, so happy that you are here     Love  Ami
No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.        Eleanor Roosevelt

Most of our problems come from losing contact with our instincts,with the age old wisdom stored within us.
   Carl Jung

Overcomer

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The one thing I wish on all of you is to have witnesses like I have had.  Working with my mom has proved her N to so many people that I do not have to rationalize my perspective-people see it every day.  My aunt sees it.  My dad, on the other hand admonishes up to stop fighting and get along.  I have to admit that I am very strong now and will not back down from a fight.  If she tries to railroad me I am there toe to toe!  I guess my mom ebbs and flows.  Sometimes she is ok. 
Kelly

"The Best Way Out is Through........and try laughing at yourself"

JanetLG

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Your replies mean so much to me, that I want to comment more on what you've said:

Peace,

When I said I'd post this email from my Nsister (on the other thread), I didn't really know that it would hit me this hard to dredge it all up again. But, I think it's going to be healing for me, because THIS TIME I get support with dealing with it! Thank you for that.

I like the idea that the email was 'toxic vomit'! Good description!

Hops,

Yes, her grudges go back years. I hope I press the delete button if I ever see another one from her, BEFORE I read it!

Hope,

My NSister has ALWAYS been envious, and I'm definitely going to have a  ceremonial burning.

Gratitude,

Although most of what she's written is PURE fiction, what makes it hard for me to respond to it is when it starts from an incident that 'sort of' happened - then I used to end up arguing with her over It wasn't like that - Yes it was - No it wasn't. About things that happened 30 years ago, and weren't important anyway! What a waste of life! But they'll keep doing it till you go NC, IMO.

Regarding Alf - I know hardly anything about him, so I tend to feel he's being used as a convenient puppet by my NMum. I DO think he's being used to create drama - I can imagine her pontificating on the outcome of the brief exchange of correspondence between us for months!

Ami,

Yes, my NMum and NSister DID marginalise me. I remember at age 7 searching for my birth certificate, and being disappointed to find I WASN'T adopted. It had been my only hope for an explanation as to why I didn't 'fit in'. The 'everyone knows....about you' is something they've both done for years.
They're both intimidated by Chris - his talent, the fact he can see staright through them, and the fact that he's always supported me. My NSister's marriage is shaky, so she loathes my solid one. She sees her pregnancies as her biggest 'achievements' and lives through her kids - I'm really worried about her daughter, as I think the risk of N contamination is very real, there.

Changing,

The adulterous nature of my NMum I have got used to, over time. But yes, I don't have to condone it with her latest shack-up. I think that's a good point about them REALLY being angry about the fact I told the truth to Alf - I didn't see it like that before!

My family have NEVER said I did well for beating anorexia on my own, without medical intervention. All my Nmum said was 'I liked you better when you were thin - you were easier to control, then'. :shock:

I'm glad to have helped you when you were in pain. Thanks for telling me that - it really helps!

Lighter,

Can I add my NSister to the ceremonial burning bonfire?? :D

Teartracks,

I'm sorry you've got a sister like mine. What a bummer. Mine never did anything fast - her 3,500 word email must have taken her days to write!

Overcomer,

Yes, the response that 'I must be a bad person' is the only kind of response I thought I'd get, to be honest. Thanks for saying that was your first reaction, but thanks MORE for saying you saw through that. I thought people here would believe my NSister more than me, even after all this time. Even though this is an NPD-survivor's forum. I'm sorry that your NMum speaks of you like mine does. You don't deserve it either. Both my NMum and NSister were always very careful not to have witnesss, unfortunately.

Bella,

Of course there are super-hugs! And thanks for the one from you!!

It was hard to trust the forum with it, actually. Thinking about it this morning, I think it must be because I'm not used to *women* validating me, as my NMum and NSister didn't.

You're right, my NSister isn't terribly bright (and that's putting it mildly!! :D)

Ami again,

I hope by sharing this that others can learn something from it, I really do.

If anyone wants to copy my letter to Alf and send it to their family when starting NC - be my guest!!! :lol:

When you said : "You can tell that the person is just a "parrot" for the mother", I think that's just sooo funny, because my NMum's surname is Parrott, and she hates it!

The 'all mothers...' thing is dreadful, isn't it? I was gutted when I heard you say what your mother told you, the first time you posted that here. My version is so similar. They simply want to justify their abuse, so they make crazy-making statements.

All this 'contact' with my FOO during the past year HAS been traumatic, but for me, too, it's made me come to God in my own way, and I'm grateful for that.

I'm glad you're here, too, along with everyone else who bothers to spend time writing such helpful things  :D :D :D

Janet

Gaining Strength

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There is so much that is telling about your sister's email.  Just look at how she ended it.

Quote
Finally, I want to say that I will not be contacting you again.
As though you had started the correspondence or invited it -----

The other huge aspects of note are her powerful rage and her frequent reference to and blaming you of your anorexia.

Anorexia is ALWAYS evidence of great disfunction in the family being solidified in the "identified" one.  There is enough pain to go around.  Clearly everyone in your FOO was in great pain.  The blame that she still harbours is part of the scapegoating (aka projection.) 

I am so terribly sorry that you lived through that.  I think you are so wise to create great distance.  Continue to take care of yourself.

your friend - Gaining Strength

JanetLG

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Gaining Strength,

Yes, that's it exactly. I always felt blamed for my anorexia.

What's weird, though, is that MY NSISTER HAS IT TOO. And she's still got it, so that's about 30 years that she's had it - but she claims she can't have it, because she managed to get pregnant twice :?. But no-one mentions HER anorexia (except I used to, and then everyone went crazy because I'd pointed it out). But all the 'attention' (not 'help', but 'attention') was focussed on me - my therapist said years later that while focussing on me, it meant that the other family members didn't have to look at themselves, so it was a good one to distract them. That explains why no-one wanted me to get better. It's such a peculiar illness. The medical profession, and the media, don't help either (don't start me off on that one...I am having a long-running 'discussion' with a journalist from the BBC website at the moment because of their blinkered reporting about 'size zero models' being the ONLY cause, apparently, of 'teenagers' starving themselves to death 'on purpose'.) I could scream sometimes, I really could.

Thank you for supporting me.

Janet

NoMoreMindGames

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although some of her arguments may seem plausible to someone from the outside, the things that really made me question her version of things was:

~her blaming you for her miscarriage.  miscarriages are usually the result of an egg dividing in the wrong way from the get go, so that the embryo is horribly deformed to begin with.  one upsetting family counseling session should not be enough to cause a miscarriage.  there are women war refugees who are being raped and tortured who go on to give birth to live babies at full term.

~her saying that your anorexia was somehow your way of controlling and manipulating the whole family.  anorexia is a horrible disease.  if you had that diagnosis, you were very, very sick and probably weren't trying to control your family...you were trying to control your eating and yourself, and your anorexia probably occurred as a result of living with such a toxic family and, most likely, a perfectionistic, N mother.  it is common for Ns to feel like they're being manipulated by someone else's pain and suffering, and have no empathy.  this is classic.  they feel threatened by it.

~again, the way she would say "...and what i said in paragraph 3 proves this", as if just because she's already said something makes it undeniable reality.  my xN used to always do this..."i've already been over this with you and have proved this"...in other words "i've already lied and lied about this, so now it's my reality, so i don't know why you're still stuck on this point".

~most of her argument seemed to be that she's angry with you for telling the truth and not just "going along with the lies and delusions".  even in her description of her kids, she makes them sound like Stepford kids, rather than real kids. "I am so relieved that my children are nothing like you. They are both level-headed, caring, well-balanced and cheerful".  creepy.

~she spends much of the email comparing herself to you, denigrating you while talking herself and your mother up by comparison.  "In spite of you, I have succeeded in bringing up two wonderful children, and also have had a successful career, both before and since having the children. I have studied to further my education, and use my qualifications in my everyday work in the senior role of Financial Controller for a multi-million pound company{translated, this means she works for a bank}. Not bad for someone with just the two speeds! In one of your articles {on my website for my business}you stated that you do not believe in judging people by their job titles. Presumably this is because you joined the library as a Junior at 16, and left, a Junior at 30."  this, too, is classic.  it almost could read word-for-word like an email sent to my brother by my N father recently.

check this out:
background:  when my sister was in the hospital recently for pancreatitis caused by her alcoholism, i called my N father to let him know, as she had a 20% chance of dying.  well, long story short:  it was a mistake and a disaster emotionally for my brother and i.  at one point my brother emailed our N father with: "dad, here are all of the things D and i have been doing with our lives since we last saw you (7-8 years ago)....etc.  i guess i'd just like you to be proud of us".  N's response?:
"...Third, by the time I was your age I had completed college, served two years as an officer in the Army, taught school for 2 1/2 years, completed three years of law school and owned my own house.  Thirty-five years of law practice later, I have a fair handle on sophisticated conflict psychology, know how to produce important legal results on important issues for important people, and have continued my voracious habit of reading complicated stuff.  Do you really think it appropriate to treat me like a moron? [in context, he felt he was being treated like a "moron" because A) i'd told him to wait a few days before going to see my sister in the hospital (which he never did do), since she was so touch and go, and i didn't think it would be good for her to get all emotionally upset by seeing her father she hadn't seen in 8 years at that point, which i'd told him, and B) he must feel like a moron bc my brother is going to go to medical school eventually, and has already been accepted to a couple of universities for biomedical engineering...i think N father felt threatened by that] Maybe a good place for you to start is to polish up your people skills".

anyway, there is such a pattern of thought and communication style here...the compare and contrast, the building oneself up while putting you down, the projection.  it's really amazing, isn't it?

JanetLG

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NMMG,

The similarities are incredible. Thanks for that. Why do they have to list all these 'skills' of theirs? It just sounds so childish when done like that!

What I always find strange about my NSister's correspondence is that, whatever I start discussing, she always quickly turns the subject around to be HER attributes, and how she's better than me. The original reply of mine to Alf was to tell HIM to get my MOTHER to shut up. Nothing about HER at all (except the comment I made about my NMum saying on my wedding day 'Doesn't Kay look nice?'

But she just goes off on the old, old subjects, desperately trying to prove she's better than me. She's not even particularly sticking up for my mother - she's just getting in as much info about how wonderful her life is, compared to mine(which she knows nothing about, except what she gleans from perusing my website).

Is your sister doing OK , now? That sounds like it was a traumatic time for the normal members of you family :shock:

Janet

Overcomer

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I also notice that N people use the same rehearsed lines over and over.  I could literally stand behind my mom and mouth the words coming out of her mouth.  I would bet alot of you have similar experiences.  They used to sound so smart until I realized they were not creative enough to come up with a spontaneous conversation!
Kelly

"The Best Way Out is Through........and try laughing at yourself"

NoMoreMindGames

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yes, janet and overcomer, it's so true...the word "script" is perfect.  it's like they practice it over and over in their minds, and out it comes whenever they feel threatened or wounded or challenged.

that's how i could tell your sister was an N, janet.  it's the rehearsed lines in their "theater of grandiose delusions".

my sister's better now, thank goodness.  i'm having to do the whole Al-Anon thing, which has been a real lifesaver for me.  thanks so much for asking!

JanetLG

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NMMG,

I think even *I* recognise my Nsister's 'script' in that letter, now I've been on this forum for a few months, and read many examples from other N's, that have been posted by the recipients. But before this forum...each of us is on our own, and we each have to figure it out. That's the hard bit - doing it alone.

Janet

Iphi

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Just reading this thread now.  Janet, has anyone ever mentioned to you that your FOO is really effed up?  That letter was like the attack of the sludge monster.  I'm sure NC is the best decision, please never doubt.  I couldn't agree more with the other posters about your S's incredibly powerful envy of you.  It is so very toxic in itself that I believe your mom must feed it somehow, no doubt when there are no witnesses.  Of course Alf was/is a puppet for your mom.  His actions make no sense in any other way, especially the BS follow-up of childhood photos.  I like how she takes time out from her miscarriage story to mention all the flowers and chocolate she received.  In case you missed it that everyone loves her.  :lol:

It's good to hear that your husband and step-kids are great and you are healthy and happy now.  Especially after seeing that small sample of a harrowing past.

NMMG - glad to hear your sister is recovered and thank you for sharing your dad's words.  That is very shocking especially considering the circumstances. 

Character, which has nothing to do with intellect or skill, can evolve only by increasing our capacity to love, and to become lovable. - Joan Grant

Ami

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My Dear Iphi,
   Again a "brilliant" insight.( the chocolate and flowers).                Love    Ami
No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.        Eleanor Roosevelt

Most of our problems come from losing contact with our instincts,with the age old wisdom stored within us.
   Carl Jung