standing up to an N

[Dawning]

Has anyone stood up to an N - in this case a mother N ?

I feel somewhere in between ignoring her manipulative behaviour completely/sending her a quick reply to today's email telling her there is nothing wrong with me and I won't have her continue to tell me so OR spilling my guts to her once and for all by sending the long letter I finished writing last week (with the stamp of approval/support from my cousin.)

The danger in doing this is that she will take any response and run with it, using it as a way to get back inside my head.  She'll be thrilled with any response.  She is angry now cos I have pulled back and not giving her that source of supply and her latest email reflects her need to try and get me to doubt myself again and/or think there is something wrong with me.  She's been doing this my whole life.  I see NOW that she is very predictable, only now I am controlling my emotions and taking care of myself and certainly not trying to fix her anymore.  Still, there is the voice.  The voice that is welling up and wants to come out.  I am tired of her always, always -since birth - trying to fix me.  

Any experiences, stories, observations, stuff?

 
Dawning

[Anonymous]

I've been lookin' for a couple of stories to bring up for you Dawning. Not that they'll probably relate exactly, but hey,     They're on the 'healing' thread so I'll go there now and dredge one up and post it at the top of that thread. Might get my thought juices goin' on your request.

Be back to chat later.

CG

[Dawning]

Thanks, CG.  

When I say that I am tired of her trying to fix me, it is always when she doesn't get her way.  When she is getting her supply, she heaps praise upon me.  But she will change just as fast if I don't do what she wants *when* she wants it and then something *becomes wrong with me.*  So how I am *not* supposed to think she is full of sH*t  

She sent a string of terrible emails last month when I mentioned to her a personal, intimate event that made me happy.  I wanted to share my happiness with her and, instead, she throws all this rage at me!

So I pulled back.  I remained cool in my responses and didn't get upset even though I had a right to.  I got down on energy for several weeks and set about writing a letter to her - edited at least 10 times.  I still have the letter and my cousin thinks I should send it.  It is not a letter written in hopes of fixing her.  I have given up on that.  

Yesterday, I got an email from her asking for my ssn.  I told her that it was dangerous to send an ssn by regular email and that I would send it by snail mail early next week as today starts a week long series of national holidays here and the post offices are closed.  Her response today: "I'll need it asap. Thanks.  It's much easier on the heart, (Dawning), to be happy. Give yourself a break!"  Please trust me, this is an insidious way of hers to get her way even about something like not getting my ssn when she wants it.  Never mind the danger involved (I have heard of people putting their ssn in an email that gets hacked and then someone else has access to your bank records, etc.)  But this is a minor case.  Several years ago, when I dared to offer my opinion on what my dying grandfather needed, she raged at me.  I told her that I thought we needed a little time apart - an hour or so - to cool down and later, that evening, when I went back to her house in a rental car, she took the car keys off the key ring and locked me in the house, took me to the living room where she had lined up a set of glasses and gave me one and told me to throw it at the wall.  When I wouldn't do this, she proceeded to tell me all the ways I was deficient as a person.  When dawn broke and I went into the room to go to bed, she insisted that I hug her, telling me that she loved me.  The next morning, she had a beautiful breakfast prepared and wanted me to talk.  I said that I didn't have anything to say (protecting myself here)  She, then said, "well then you can help me paint the doors."  I did that and then everything was better.  I took her out for dinner later (and drinks for me) and that made things even better.  But, as you can imagine, I fully realized her disorder very clearly that year.  I came back and discussed it with my therapist.  

~Dawning.

[Anonymous]

Still, there is the voice.  The voice that is welling up and wants to come out.  I am tired of her always, always -since birth - trying to fix me.  
 
Dawning

Hi Dawning,

What qualifies her, or whose authority does she have to pass comment on you in the first place anyway.

Tell her to 'feck off'. Tell her "I got a warmer glow the last time I passed water, than I've ever had from anything you've ever said to me."

I mean, get mad at anyone who wants to hang their shit on your shirt. This applies ESPECIALLY, REPEAT, ESPECIALLY for mothers.      

Or how about you say , " Hey ma, (yes, you simply positively MUST use the term 'ma'. They hate it.   ) I've think you've mistaken for someone who gives a shit about your opinions."

And trying to fix what anyway????? let's see (hahahahaha)
fix you,    or f##k you up?? (line outa a movie I love, "Your're job is to  fix me, not to f##k me up!!!")

Or is she trying to
CHANGE you, or
CONTROL you, or
CONTROL  & CHANGE you?

Or if she can achieve a real win, she'll convince you that something's wrong with you so get suspicious of yourself, even maybe mistrust yourself and every bloody decision you've ever made, or maybe even get you to hate yourself?? Get you so you feel sick every time you look in the mirror? Don't know, just askin'?

My mother had me like that at different times. Bloody lovely isn't it. And there wasn't anything wrong with me, that losing her didn't fix. I treated her in the end, the same way you'd treat a bloke at work who repeatedly tells racist or sexist jokes.

Step 1. Made her aware that what she was doing was unacceptable and offensive and I wouldn't tolerate it any more.

Step 2. Told her she had to stop, which she plain just couldn't. Too old and stubborn and narcissistic and evil.

Step 3.  Warned her if she continued I'd cut off communication for good. When she couldn't I followed through. End of story. Sounds heartless, but I wasn't the heartless one, she was.

By the way,  

Do you feel you need fixing?
Do you want to change?

You sound okay to me  

CG

[Anonymous]

HI Dawning, I'm playin' catch-up here, but I gotta say, (please no offence intended), but your mother makes me feel sick. I read your post and felt sick to the pit of my stomach. There was a familiarity in your story that hit me hard, which my brain will get it's hands around later. But I can see, yeah, she's got to make you out to be the sick problem one, hasn't she?

CG

[Dawning]

No offense taken, CG.  

I just realized that "fix her" really means "help her see the light" to my heart/mind.  See the light meaning to have the ability to do all the things that people fitting the NPD description apparently simply cannot do - simple as that.  

This just came into my thoughts: I want from her what I can't have from her.  I must have realized that in childhood and coped by telling myself that I shouldn't want anything and so, yes, I have deprived myself in certain areas that were important to me...and now I want to want a more meaningful life and I am wondering if part of that change may involve standing up to her.

What qualifies her, or whose authority does she have to pass comment on you in the first place anyway.

It is that entitlement thing that N's have, isn't it?

Do you feel you need fixing?
Do you want to change?

Sure, there are things that I would like to change and fix about myself.  I'm not perfect. But those are my responsibilities.  "Ma" projects on me.  She has major issues with taking responsibilty for HER actions.  Lucky her, she has a daughter she can blame (being sarcastic here) whenever she feels entitled to.

Here is a snippet of the letter I have written, "if I have to break down in order to get love and attention, then I would have to wonder what type of person I was dealing with."  

Thanks for asking those questions above.   And for sharing how you have dealt with your *ma.*    Right now - as an emergency measure- I am surrounding myself with "white light" (read: Judith Orwell`s Positive Energy.)  

And, "achieving a real win" really struck a chord.  Thanks, CG.  Thanks so much for posting.  (I think you wrote that to me once too and I thought it was a lovely thing to write so can I borrow it?    

And, lastly, what might be better served on another thread - this thing they have with entitlement really makes me angry.    

~still Dawning.

[Wildflower]

Hi Dawning,

She sent a string of terrible emails last month when I mentioned to her a personal, intimate event that made me happy. I wanted to share my happiness with her and, instead, she throws all this rage at me!

This is so sadly typical of N behavior.  Rojo had a good thread in which she was working out what to say to her mother, and she included some of the back-and-forth exchanges.  I’ll see if I can hunt it down.

When I wouldn't do this, she proceeded to tell me all the ways I was deficient as a person. When dawn broke and I went into the room to go to bed, she insisted that I hug her, telling me that she loved me.

Blech.  Yep, my dad, too. I can’t count the number of times he’s had a big blow out (the highlight of which being the shredding of me) and then I’ve had to hold him at the end (weeping) to reassure him that everything’s okay.  And, um, he's a big guy.

In the meantime?  Be a swan here and everywhere – just not with her because it sounds like she’s likely to pull off your feathers.

Hang in there,
Wildflower

[Wildflower]

Here it is. It's called, "Help - Attention Campaign":

http://voicelessness.com/disc3/viewtopic.php?t=407

Wildflower

[Wildflower]

"if I have to break down in order to get love and attention, then I would have to wonder what type of person I was dealing with."

BLECHHHHHHHHH.  Okay, yeah.  My advice?  Show her you're the kind of person who doesn't put up with emotional blackmail, childish tantrums from adults, and who takes responsibility for her own growth, thankyouverymuch.

Wildflower

[Wildflower]

And there wasn't anything wrong with me, that losing her didn't fix.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

That's a good one.      

Wildflower

P.S. - I'll try to get my replies in ONE post next time    

[guest today]

Hi Dawning,

It must be tiring to deal with your mom.  Frustrating to care about a person in a very real way and to have a twisted version come back at you. There's no doubt that your mom is hurting you, that she doesn't play fair.  From what you say, that is simply the way she is.  The way she chooses to be.

What I wonder is how much can we, those of us who deal with Ns in our lives, influence our own outcome.  For example, if you change the way you see your mother, you see her the way a stranger would.  No emotional ties.  Just as another human person. Would the outcome change for you?  You mention that she acts in a horrible way, and then sometime later you do some action to make things better.  A stranger wouldn't do the action to make things better.  They'd take the situation for what it was.  If they met a rude, selfish and careless person, they would distance themselves.  No trying to fix.  No making better.  No getting involved.  They wouldn't be terribly hurt or angry.  It would be one more interaction with a rude person.  

I don't know if this is good or bad advice.  It's simply a thought process for me.  A different way of looking at things.  

You acknowledge that you no longer see the value in trying to help her see the light.  Yet, you seem to have an emotional reaction when dealing with her.

Ns are odd people.  The way that they see the world is different from the way others see it.  They don't respect the kind, make it better action.  They may like it, but they don't respect it.  

I delt with an N father-in-law at one time.  (He is no longer living at this time).  At first, I responded to him with kindness, concern, caring.  It became obvious that he used everyone around him.  "Worked" his family to get what he wanted.  After a decade of observing this, I finally gave up.  Did not care at all what he thought about me.  What the rest of the family thought about me.  I wasn't mean or cruel or thoughtless.  I treated him as a stranger.  If he was rude, I ignored him.  If he interrupted I continued talking.  It didn't matter the situation, I did not treat him in any special way regardless of the situation.  The rest of the family was apalled.  They could't believe my actions.

As this man, my N father in law grew older, he came to respect me.  He eventually learned that he couldn't work me the way he could everyone else in the family.  And he didn't try any more.  Around me he was far more normal.

Okay.  Long story, small point.  What if you could not care about how your mom felt?  what if you didn't take responsibility for her feelings?

[Portia]

Love to all here, including Guest Today (GT?). GT said:

What if you could not care about how your mom felt?

Wouldn’t that be wonderful? I keep trying and I think it is getting easier. And how about: wouldn’t it be great if I could stop myself always looking for that spark of unconditional love from her?

I hated myself for a moment yesterday when I got an email from her. We’d had no contact for 3 weeks so, wondering ‘is she alive?’, I sent a one-liner asking a question. And I got an email back, as usual, totally ignoring my question. It goes along these lines: ‘Hi darling, I’ve done this, been there, with x, he’s fantastic, I’m great, everything is wonderful, talk to you soon…..’. Yep, she’s alive, very much so, away in the sun, visited a town near me (ouch ouch ouch, but not close enough to stop off and visit me??) and – basically couldn’t give a damn. Ouch ouch: where’s that tiny bit of recognition of my existence, let alone the (ha ha) mother-daughter bond? Not there. Never was, never will be.

And although I know what she is, what she’s like, I still feel that ‘ping’ every time I see that lack of love confirmed. Damn it! Why couldn’t she have been much crueller to me so that I could kick her out of my head? I don’t mean that, oh no, I’ve heard enough real horror stories here to wish for that, but you get my drift.

So, yesterday I didn’t feel it for long (which is good! It used to last for days). I looked at my reaction and thought ‘you sap! She’s never going to love you so give it up, deal with it, it’s in your head you silly girl. Go and get love from those who know what it is, stop beating yourself up over getting blood from a stone’. And it worked. Five minutes of ache – I can cope with that. But I’d like to get rid of it completely. I haven’t replied to her email – I don’t know what to say other than ‘that’s nice dear’. Ha ha ha!

Dawning: what can I add? How about:

Please don’t send the letter! Please know that you’ve written it for yourself, not for her. Put it here if you want to (I’d love to read it), but as you say, don’t give her fuel.

“Mother, I realise you think there’s something wrong with me. Thank you for being concerned about me, I appreciate it. But please don’t worry, I am quite alright and I can look after myself. If I do need help with anything, please know that I will ask you. Is that okay? I hope you would do the same with me and tell me if there’s anything I could help you with.” Keep drawing back.

Gosh I just realised we’re around the same age. What does she want your ssn for? Is that ok with you? It’s just, well, she’s still treating you like a dependent daughter who can’t do anything for herself and who doesn’t understand how the world works – and you most definitely are not that person!

Last time my mother tried to pull a daft trick on me I yelled “mother I am 42 years old!”. Bit of a shock to her boyfriend who thought I was about 8 years younger. Ha ha ha ha.

I don’t know Dawning, whether you need to stand up to her or ignore her. I’ve never really stood up squarely to mine. Can’t see the point, we’d just argue, get upset and she would not see my point of view. And I’d be far more upset than her – I’m sure you would be too. We tend to feel, they do not, they react. I haven’t worked it out, but little or no contact seems to work well for a number of people here. I haven’t read anyone saying they stood up and achieved anything (other than separation). And our mothers don’t miss ‘us’ – they miss the supply. Anyone can supply it, we’re not special to them in that respect but we do tend to fool ourselves that we are, coz then we can imagine that we might be loved. What an illusion huh?

Think of your friend’s smirk on that holiday and your mother’s behaviour – those people deserve no part of you, you’re too valuable. Think of those wonderful people who took you in their shop when you were crying. They deserve a long letter more than others….

Your mother’s not in the same reality as you and she never will be. You need to protect and build your reality up, not let her in! It’s not easy. Dr G says somewhere (Little Voice article I think) about N’s being primarily aggressive. That’s a good one to keep in mind at all times. Your mother’s a predator and you’re sometimes the prey. This is another one of my illusions – that’s she’s weaker than me. Rubbish! She’s tough as old boots and I’m an adult abused child. I need to protect me, not her. You too I bet. best....P

Sorry, more:

She sent a string of terrible emails last month when I mentioned to her a personal, intimate event that made me happy. I wanted to share my happiness with her and, instead, she throws all this rage at me!  

Interpretation: you're happy (better than her) so she N rages (how dare you be happier than me/without including me) and then she has to make herself better than you to regain ego (there's something wrong with you Dawning...which will make me happier!) ...Step away from this dance floor, it's sick.

So I pulled back. I remained cool in my responses and didn't get upset even though I had a right to.

You have every right to, in the normal, real, thinking world. But that's not her world. Get upset here - not with her. Here is safe - mother is not. Plus, your cousin is not the best person to advise you, however good their intentions: your therapist would be better. Hugs.

[Anonymous]

Dawning,

My feedback is to send your mother the short email reply. Don't give her vulnerable information, she will only use it against you. Post your letter here instead.

bunny

[Anonymous]

Yeah, I'm with bunny, post it here. But I have to admit I say that not from any mature adult reason.    I'd just love to read it.  

CG

[Anonymous]

Okay.  Long story, small point.

Dear guest today, may I say, "Long story, very good point."

CG

Hi Dawning, a question. If you could imagine all the actions and comments to you from your mum, coming from say, a neighbour or someone at work, how would your letter read then???

Just a thought.

CG