Author Topic: Chilly Cerebral N  (Read 15197 times)

Iphi

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Chilly Cerebral N
« on: August 15, 2007, 03:42:55 PM »

I believe my dad is a cerebral N of the neglectful type.  Sometimes though, I'm not so sure.  I am hoping to share some specific interchanges from past years and get some different perspectives because people here really get it.  Also, I just want to put it out there in front of people who know. These will be the things that really hit me.

1. Here is a recent one.  My husband and I moved to a town that has some historic interest.  Every time I spoke with my dad, he would tell me about the history of my town.  This happened about three times.  The next time I said, "Yes dad I know about how the town was founded.  We have a founder's day every year.  I live a mile from the town museum and the foundation documents are online."  He was furious.  He doesn't know anything about our house or our neighborhood and has never actually asked me what my town is like. 
After that last conversation, when he says the name of my town he does so in a contemptuous, mocking way. 

2.  He came to my college graduation but looked put-upon and aggrieved the whole time.  I had to push his wheelchair though my sister and cousins and aunt and uncle were there and could have done so.  Afterward he was impatient to leave and wanted to know how long I would take to pack up my dorm room.  I had thrown my stuff into a couple of trash bags ahead of time, because I anticipated this.

3.  The two above occasions - 5 years ago and 15 years ago - are the only times he has visited me.  He did not visit in college other than dropping me off for freshman year.  I've never asked him to come because it is like a heavy unspoken thing in our family that you never ask dad for anything or to do anything because it is unthinkable to burden him that way.  He used to say it would be terrible for him to travel and he can't do it.  But in fact he does travel to visit his family and in past has expected me to drive him and help him make these trips.  They were hellish trips throughout which he berated me and commits weird acts of sabotage.  I've sworn never to convey him anywhere ever again - it leaves me feeling mauled.

4.  When I went to college and afterward when I moved away, he didn't ask me if I needed anything or take any interest in that sort of thing at all. He has no interest in my life or doings or concerns and no knowledge of them.  On day in high school I was cooking dinner and he was sitting at the kitchen table.  I was upset because he never asked me anything about myself or seemed to know anything about me, so I decided to tell him all about my day in great detail.  It became clear that he wasn't listening, so at a certain point I included being kidnapped by aliens in my narrative.  Eventually he looked furious but never said anything/continued to ignore me.  But of course then it was my fault for... doing whatever.

5.  I used to think he did a lot of things for my sister and me because he would take us on all sorts of outings and get involved in activities.  But in retrospect, every single activity and outing was of his choosing and if one of us (usually me) tried to say 'no' or suggest an alternative then there was a rage.  But it confuses me because in this way it seems he wanted to act like an involved parent.  But I think he wanted to play the role and also be in control of two little people and gather NS from us.

6.  My dad is very educated.  Over dinner and at various other times, the conversation is dad talks about interesting things and we listen.  We are allowed to ask intelligent questions.  This was always the way when we were growing up and still has been when I visit as an adult. This seems okay to me, and as long as he is happy it can be enjoyable and he is a good talker - but if there is a departure from him being the center of attention the mood shifts.  Sometimes viciously. 

7.  He expects servitude unquestioningly.  He just starts ordering me about when I visit.  BUT, if I help him in some way that he is not directing, it infuriates him. 

8.  When he came for our wedding, he went out to eat with my in-laws.  My MIL told be that he ignored my SIL and yet expected her to push his wheelchair and attend to his various needs.  My MIL was upset that her daughter, who has advanced degrees and a high powered career, was treated like a servant.  Tell me about it.  :lol:

9.  When I was in 4th grade I had long division homework and was having trouble.  I asked him for help and when I didn't get it right away, he gave me a lecture on interesting (to him) things about calculus.  When he wandered away, I cried.  I felt so stupid.  It's not the only time it happened, but it was the first and really stuck in my mind.

10.  He had an enthusiasm to teach us to play piano, which he excelled at.  He set us some scales and an easy tune, but when neither of us mastered these exercises right away he 'gave up' telling us it was pointless because we lacked ability, diligence and work ethic.

This things just haunt me sometimes.  For a long time I put down the more recent behavior to his disability and the burdens of his life and excused him.  I excused him basically from all responsibility.  But he also demanded to be excused from all responsibility.  It seems this made me an enabler.  But also, especially after he got ill - which really began to happen when my sister and I were in junior high school, it was like no one could say no to anything or have any other plan that wasn't selfish.  It was like becoming ill meant he was justified in having his way all the time, and at the same time was a complete release from anything he didn't want to do. 

The illness has made it very hard for me to disentangle.  Also it still feels at least partly wrong to think he should be responsible for his own behavior, or have responsibilities to people in his family.

Also, when I write this stuff I hear him, and sometimes my sister, in my mind denying it all and telling me none of it is the way I am saying it is.   :?
Character, which has nothing to do with intellect or skill, can evolve only by increasing our capacity to love, and to become lovable. - Joan Grant

Certain Hope

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Re: Chilly Cerebral N
« Reply #1 on: August 15, 2007, 03:54:55 PM »
Dear Iphi,

You've just described my mother and my ex husband.
Yes, that is exactly my understanding of cerebral N and I have no doubt that the way you're seeing it all is exactly as it is.
I'd comment point by point and say, yes, yes, yes... but will just leave it at one very big YES - and chills - they are just a human deep-freeze.
Hugs to you... I'm sorry, I have no solution other than what I tell myself - That's how she is, but I don't have to be that way and I don't have to allow her ways to diminish who I am.

Love,
Hope


Iphi

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Re: Chilly Cerebral N
« Reply #2 on: August 15, 2007, 04:03:20 PM »
Thank you so much for the validation CH. It feels really good!
Character, which has nothing to do with intellect or skill, can evolve only by increasing our capacity to love, and to become lovable. - Joan Grant

Certain Hope

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Re: Chilly Cerebral N
« Reply #3 on: August 15, 2007, 04:28:01 PM »
((((((Iphi)))))) you're so welcome.

I was afraid to say more and get caught in that downward spiral of revisiting it all again.
To see it all written up together as you've done was shocking. I read as hurriedly as I could, which is really quite fast, and kept telling myself that I could just skim it and be okay, but every word sunk in.

What really strikes me is that, taken individually, each of these things might be fairly insignificant... okay, so the person isn't feeling well, or has alot of personal issues and struggles, or is even just plain old self-centered. But when you add it all up and see the patterns, the consistent disregard for others... it's startling!

I've never seen anyone put it all into words this way... and now I recognize even more clearly why so much of my ex husband's bizarre behaviour seemed so familar and unremarkable. It wasn't until he began the melodramatic NoNseNse that I really got concerned, because my mother never acted that out. She was and is exceptionally withdrawn and unemotional when angered.

#1 just about knocked me over. Every single attempt at conversation with my mother goes this route. I've always found it indescribably insufferable and... humilating. My dad will do something similar, but doesn't do the contemptuous mocking afterward.. mostly he's just totally uninterested in what's going on in anyone else's life; only wants to talk about himself and his interests.

 She looks put-upon and aggrieved at every visit to our home, which has been about twice/year for the past 7 years. The highlite of her aggrievedness was when she had to suffer through the birth of her first grandchild, my eldest daughter, 25 years ago. Anyone listening would think she'd given birth herself, that day. Dad's solution to uncomfortable visits and every other difficult circumstance of life is to drink.

I've never tried inserting an alien abduction into one of my attempts at discussion with her ( :D), but that may be because I rarely get out more than 6 words without an interruption and complete topic change to whatever her dire need of the moment might be... even if it's just to rotate something in the microwave.

#6 - the story of my life at home. It's not normal, natural, or okay... it's pathetic and wrong of any adult to monopolize family times and put children, young or grown, into the role of sitting at the feet of the great guru.
argh.

#7 - see #6

I need to quit as blood pressure is rising, but please know that this stuff is warped and wacked and so very typical cerebral N.

Oh, and #9 - he didn't have a CLUE how to explain long division to you. His calc lecture was all a butt-covering smoke screen.
That one is my ex to a T, along with all the rest.

Love,
Hope


Ami

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Re: Chilly Cerebral N
« Reply #4 on: August 15, 2007, 04:34:13 PM »
Dear Iphi,
  I have always been able to relate to you so well. Now, I know why. my  mother is a cerebral N.
  I am so glad that you started a thread.
  I have to laugh at point 8.
  Your F sounds like an N-- very much so.
   My mother was different in her areas of "torment" of me,but the general contemptuous, deprecating and  destructive tone were all there.
  i have been facing the truth more and more. The upshot is that they are hollow ,zombie-like mannequins. I have almost passed out many.many times in the last month as I was coming to this conclusion. It is horrible for us to have to face that our parent is really a "monster"-- in  the sense that a central part of their humanness is GONE(IMO).They don't have empathy
   I am reading a book about sociopaths. It says that Sociopaths do not have conscience and empathy. N's do not have empathy.
   i am facing the horror of it with my heart. My M is the walking dead(like Vaknin says)
  I don't know where you are in the "facing it" process. I hope that I did not upset you by saying these "strong" things.
   I was devastated when I first started facing the truth. I still am,but it is getting a little muted.
   Keep sharing, Iphi. You have so much to offer                                              Love     Ami

 
 
No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.        Eleanor Roosevelt

Most of our problems come from losing contact with our instincts,with the age old wisdom stored within us.
   Carl Jung

NoMoreMindGames

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Re: Chilly Cerebral N
« Reply #5 on: August 15, 2007, 04:36:36 PM »
oh ilphi, this sounds so much like my N father, to the 'T'....i can totally relate to what you've gone through.  it's so painful, i know.

this really does sound like a "cerebral N",....something i've thought my father is.

i can especially, especially relate to this:

"4.  When I went to college and afterward when I moved away, he didn't ask me if I needed anything or take any interest in that sort of thing at all. He has no interest in my life or doings or concerns and no knowledge of them.  On day in high school I was cooking dinner and he was sitting at the kitchen table.  I was upset because he never asked me anything about myself or seemed to know anything about me, so I decided to tell him all about my day in great detail.  It became clear that he wasn't listening, so at a certain point I included being kidnapped by aliens in my narrative.  Eventually he looked furious but never said anything/continued to ignore me.  But of course then it was my fault for... doing whatever."

my own father is so like this it's scary...you could totally be describing him.

does your father not ever look at you?  whenever i'd try to talk at all, he'd simply not look at me, would interrupt me in the middle of my sentence to change the subject, would hum.....did your father ever do that?



Iphi

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Re: Chilly Cerebral N
« Reply #6 on: August 15, 2007, 05:56:57 PM »
Okay, thank god you guys.  Thank god. Thank you!  I appreciate your posts so much.  The process of coming to terms with this has been in stages over years.  I've known about N for a year and have been reading and reading, but sometimes I waver back and forth because of all the reasons to excuse him - the illness, my mom's illness putting single parenthood on him, my 'badness' who knows - all kinds of excuses.  But previous to that I was in therapy and working on boundaries and enmeshment for some years, but N-ism never came up and it just advances everything light years.  The most my therapist ever said regarding my dad was 'the well is dry.'  Which is true but... what is it?  I thought for a long time his illness blighted him and I worked really hard on trying to reignite his spirit.  You know?  Didn't go anywhere.

He has constantly had people dedicated to him and supporting him and seems so blind to it.  Even my mom, who he has completely exiled, will always ask me 'how's your father' and seems to really care more about his health and well being than her own.  And she's schizophrenic living in a group home in straitened circumstances.  ok? 

Last year I tried sneaking up on the topic with my sister, but she said I need to accept him the way he is and if I quit enraging him then I wouldn't be the target.  Message = it is all my fault for not properly supporting and accepting his quirks.  It repelled me that she was essentially saying I brought abuse upon myself.  I said "okay I fold the towels 'wrong'"  - figure of speech for my terrible infractions.

The main thing with me is - certain areas of my life are messed up and give me a lot of distress. It used to be more areas but I've worked hard and things seem to be okay in other ways.  But in work and in friendships and in feeling active instead of passive toward life - I'm really incapacitated and paralyzed and I know it is from this - but not how to address it.  This has bothered me so much for many years.  It's exciting to be so close, but still so intensely distressing.

Must go for now but will be back when I can - hopefully tonight.  Thank you again I will read your posts again more - kind of read them emotionally right now, but not in depth.
Character, which has nothing to do with intellect or skill, can evolve only by increasing our capacity to love, and to become lovable. - Joan Grant

Ami

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Re: Chilly Cerebral N
« Reply #7 on: August 15, 2007, 07:46:55 PM »
Dear Iphi,
 There is so much healing that comes from starting a thread on something that is really bothering you.It seems like this has been really healing for you, already.
   I wanted to comment on some things that you said.You feel passive and not active in areas of your life. I so understand that feeling of paralysis.
   I do not "think through" simple problems. It reminds me of an alcoholic friend who said, "What do alcoholics do when the air conditioning breaks in their house? The answer---- buy a new house.
  I can see that Maria finds solutions to problems in an active way, while I sit with my thumb in my mouth.
   Somehow, we ,with N parents, must have gotten paralyzed. I know that I am just beginning to realize that I CAN think as I want to. I never could before.I never could feel, think or perceive. I could just be "frozen".
  I am facing the truth about my N mother and how she damaged me very slowly. Actually, I have been in "shock", I went through a month when I was sobbing and feeling faint.
  Now, I am  mainly really tired-- very tired. Letting go of denial is a physical and emotional process which you can't rush even though you really, really want to.
   We can only come out slowly(IME).
    MY thoughts and prayers are with you, Iphi. keep sharing,My friend        Love  Ami
     
No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.        Eleanor Roosevelt

Most of our problems come from losing contact with our instincts,with the age old wisdom stored within us.
   Carl Jung

lighter

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Re: Chilly Cerebral N
« Reply #8 on: August 16, 2007, 03:47:47 AM »
(((Iphi)))

I'm so sorry you endure/d that behavior from you father.

I don't think he can do better.... or he would. 


Certain Hope

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Re: Chilly Cerebral N
« Reply #9 on: August 16, 2007, 09:30:35 AM »
Dear Iphi,

I want to thank you for sharing all this.
Sat here and stared at it for quite awhile last night and tried to write a thank you... but I was stumped, able only to think of adjectives to describe how I felt at seeing it here - like abashed, stupified, dumbfounded.
Couldn't seem to get past the fear of disintegrating and move on to attempting to recognize how the actual attitudes and manipulations of cerebral N made me feel over a lifetime. As you said... there's that haunting.

Frightened, helpless, needy, weak, small, empty, desperate, lonely, ignorant, unteachable, abandoned, sad, very very nervous... and
starved, really... for acknowledgement as an individual and not just an accessory to the king and/or queen.

Saying it, feeling it... and not disappearing. I think that's the end of the haunting.
((((((Iphi)))))))

Hope

Iphi

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Re: Chilly Cerebral N
« Reply #10 on: August 16, 2007, 10:17:26 AM »
Aww Ami, Lighter, CH, CB - thank you.  I am going to continue to put more instances out there as time permits (got a couple of projects at work today whereas it has been really quiet until now) and want to invite anyone to also share who wants to.   I feel like I am putting items of evidence out to be witnessed.  In the past I have confronted my dad on some of these and he has completely denied them and/or stated he has no memory or whatever etc.  bah.  

I can't tell you how many years it has deeply distressed me that there is this paralysis about me that I don't know what it is or how to get past it.  It means so much to be able to put this out there where there is some chance to understand it more deeply.  Sometimes I feel like a ghost myself - replaying the same events - but never coming to some deeper or wider place with them - never getting it.
Character, which has nothing to do with intellect or skill, can evolve only by increasing our capacity to love, and to become lovable. - Joan Grant

Sela

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Re: Chilly Cerebral N
« Reply #11 on: August 16, 2007, 11:11:45 AM »
Hello Iphi and welcome here!

Quote
it still feels at least partly wrong to think he should be responsible for his own behavior, or have responsibilities to people in his family.

I think if you could work through this one, it would really help you.


If it isn't his responsibility to be responsible for his own behaviour.....who's is it?  Who can control his behaviour, besides him? (besides, maybe the jail warden  : :shock:).


Is he so special that he does not have annnnnnnnny resposibilities?  Not even to his family?
Why not?  Does getting ill negate our responsibiliities?   Would you allow yourself this freedom?  Why does he get to be so special?


No need to answer, if you don't wanna Iphi.  These are just questions that raced through my head as I read your post and I posted hoping it might help to consider them.  If not, pitch the whole thing.  NO worries.

Sela

Hopalong

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Re: Chilly Cerebral N
« Reply #12 on: August 16, 2007, 12:10:29 PM »
Hi Iphi,  [and hiiiiii ((((Sela))))!  :)]

Iphi I think it's exactly right to think he should be responsible.

The thing is, right or wrong, it won't make any difference, because he doesn't care. And won't change.

I'm so sorry. I loathe him, just reading about him. (And it also makes me realize that my D's father was a cerebral N! I'd always thought he was just very very selfish. Welll, who knows, I guess it's a question of degree...)

love to y'all,
Hops
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axa

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Re: Chilly Cerebral N
« Reply #13 on: August 16, 2007, 01:35:51 PM »
Lived with a cerebral N for three years.............. what a nightmare, so I can associate with much that you write.  Bottom line, they are the cleverest, everything is about them, others are only there to serve, if there is a better source of supply anywhere in their orbit you are nothing, you are only something if they can somehow take credit for your achievements, everyone who has any "valuable" attributes is an extention of them........... oh, how I know these creeps.  So sorry you have had to endure such a horrible father.

Axa

And they don't change so watch out.

Iphi

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Re: Chilly Cerebral N
« Reply #14 on: August 16, 2007, 10:18:51 PM »
Everyone, it means so much to me that you recognize this.  The doubt is dead.  I will no longer attribute human feelings to him that he has shown no evidence of.

Oops my baby woke up and is starting to cry.  Hope to write more tomorrow.  Love to you all!
Character, which has nothing to do with intellect or skill, can evolve only by increasing our capacity to love, and to become lovable. - Joan Grant