Chilly Cerebral N

[Iphi]

P.S.  I think that was Noah who got drunk.

Oops CH, my bad.    

I hope you are recovered from your brother's visit Hops.  He sounds boundaryless and entitled to the Nth degree, if you'll pardon the pun.

The reason I pretended so hard that my family was functional was because I needed to believe it.  You know what?  They never even wanted to be functional, in actuality.  It was not even an item on my dad's agenda, ever.  It beggars my abilities to even attempt to describe the ongoing make-believe that went on.     Instead of actually doing something or learning something, it seems around my house we would just make-believe it is so. 

 I was not exempt from this complete folly.  I was making believe that my dad loved us and that his being our single parent proved it, because otherwise he would have just left.  I don't even understand why he stayed, but I suspect it was for reasons of weakness or parasitism, not strength or principle. 

I wasn't able to post this weekend, too busy to write anything lengthy, but what has hit me the hardest is all these memories of my dad mocking me.  From earliest childhood up to, say, this past year.  He finds my emotions, my perceptions, my opinions, observations, expressions - just laughable.  He is endlessly patronizing.

I've been reading books about boundaries and thinking about productive confrontation.  It forces me to admit that I have tried again and again over many years to have boundaries and to productively confront my dad.  He will not allow it.  He's one of those who rampages across a boundary.  And the times I have confronted him, even in the calmest most oblique way including all sorts of flattery and soothing, lead to giant blow ups.  Also, he fights dirty.  I mean he says hateful personal things and he always accuses me of evil motives.  This has always worked on me, so that I capitulate and end up trying to prove I am not evil.  Total victory.

I would never have bothered to turn over the rock and look at the creepy crawlies underneath if I was not SO stuck in my professional life and running into trouble with my friendships.  I must have clarity here and want so much to overcome the obstacles.

I would never have reviewed the entire 37 year history of my dad making fun of me, not to mention raging at me, and me accepting it.  I see now that I can never have a voice that he will accept.  And he will never be happy for me for having any 'voice.'  And that he will come back at me with everything he has - total thermonuclear war. 

I never do that to him.  He has always done that to me. 

Again and again I've tried to make the most of the positives, but it doesn't make the negative go away.  I don't think I can live with the negative. 

Also, it makes me see that I must give up on my extended family.  No one has ever taken me aside.  No one has ever sought to develop an independent relationship with me.  No one has ever said anything positive to me.  If it has not happened now, it will not happen. 

I've been trying to make my dad right in my mind, trying to make him okay, by saying there must be some legitimate reason he has treated me this way.  I've been saying his point of view is valid.  But it is not.  He is deeply dishonest.

I don't want my son to see how my father treats me.

I feel like my well being and success could actually kill my dad.  Is that magical thinking?  He acts like it hurts him.  Is the magical thinking his?

[Iphi]

Also, this all reminds me of how I just wanted to die for so long.  Not anymore.  But for a long time.  And that living with my dad - it felt like being deep underwater - heavy, heavy.  Every motion and thought took so much effort.

I used to cry all the time, but in secret so that he wouldn't make fun of me or rage at me.  I would cry at night, soundlessly.  Or I would go out for a drive and cry.  I didn't connect it to him - my crying - the situation leading up to the crying - because he was always to be held blameless and not responsible.  I felt my anguish was a sign of my weakness and inability to self-sacrifice.

This is hard to talk about.

[Ami]

Dear Iphi. I was where you are about two months ago. I was facing the SAME ,horrible truths about my M. I was in shock. I don't know if you are,but I "looked "like a person who was in' shock".
Iphi, it is simply, very,very hard. What we thought of as "reality" is crumbling. We are alone and like newborn babies. We have to let go of most our our thinking . It feels raw and very, very sad.
I spent 3 weeks sobbing.
   I don't know where you are-- in your emotions --right now-- but I will help you in whatever way that I can..
  Maybe, you will not react as strongly as I did. I was in very, very deep denial. Also, I was in denial about my H, too. So, I had to climb out of  deep holes. Hopefully, your's is not as deep or longstanding.
   I understand ,Iphi. I am so, so sorry that you did not have a Dad who could appreciate your unique and wonderful qualities. I can hear them  on the board.((((((((((IPHI)))))))))))               Love     Ami

[Ami]

iDear Iphi,
  Do you have physical problems like stomach aches , yeast infections etc from stuffing the pain of your father. I put it in my body-- that is why am asking?                                                Ami

[Iphi]

Hi Ami - I have not been in as deep as you.  It seems what I have been trying to do is hold two different versions of the truth in my head at the same time. 

The first time I went to therapy was when I was 16 and had been clinically depressed and flunking out of school.  At that time I would not talk about my dad or my relationship with my dad at all.  I would talk about my issues only in relation to myself.  That's what I mean about covering for him and excusing him from responsibility.  I wouldn't say "my dad says I only overly emotional."  I would say "I feel guilty and ashamed that I am overly emotional." 

When I was 27 I went again and did talk about my dad, but kept invested in the idea that if I changed myself and solved the problem that was me then the relationship would improve.  I decided and said in therapy that he was a 'good enough' dad.  But how can a dad who made fun of my needs and called them selfish, who ignores me and always has, who only calls when he wants something, and who forces me to do things that I am again, and who rages at me, be a good enough dad?

If I could have overcome my smoking, social anxiety, my personal inability to move forward in certain important ways, my tendency to do things for others before they ask (like this enabling streak), my confusion over what is a quality friendship, sadness in investing in some people who dumped me, and the paralysis and fear I feel at the idea of championing myself or believing that I have something valuable to contribute - then I would not go here.

It's like I am living in a crime scene and have been refusing to investigate.  But I have been working on my own life steadily forever.   Remember I have a double whammy in that my mom is schizophrenic.  Since my dad had little knowledge of my life, I've been minding my own business in many ways for a long time.

Also, my physical symptoms usually happen when I am near my dad.  When I visit I tend to get the flu or a bad cold.  I have not visited in 2 years and plan to limit exposure in the future.  I will keep my husband and son with me, will meet away from dad's place, meet in public, whatever.

I did used to get some yeast infections, but I eat a lot of plain yogurt now and haven't had one since that dietary change.  There is no link that I have identified in that respect.

The main problem I have is agonizing stomach pain.  It hasn't been so bad in recent years.  I have strengthened myself and also I avoid situations that bring it on.  The stomach pain is definitely FOO stuff, but it has expanded out into situations with me in the world in my own life.

Sigh.  I don't know.  Sometimes we have benign conversations about finances, politics, the weather....

[Ami]

Dear Iphi,
   My problem is "stomach" issues ,also. I am reading an inner child book 'Healing your Aloneness" by Chopich. It says that your inner child resides in your solar plexus( stomach).
  I will write more later . Iphi-- you are on the right track to healing(IMO) , my Friend.                 Love    Ami 
 

[Iphi]

Thank you for your posts Ami.  I would be interested to hear more about the Chopich book when you have read it and have some time to describe it.

[Certain Hope]

I would never have bothered to turn over the rock and look at the creepy crawlies underneath if I was not SO stuck in my professional life and running into trouble with my friendships.  I must have clarity here and want so much to overcome the obstacles.

Dear Iphi,

This is how I feel, too... I mean, I kicked over the rock after NPD-ex, but never dug around beneath.
I could make sense of the hows and ways he turned me inside out, but even with all the love and care of my husband now, I was still finding myself involved in friendships where I was absorbing other peoples' stuff like a sponge. Also, with my own children... I could see the need to revise boundaries and set them a much healthier example. Clarity. Amen!

Again and again I've tried to make the most of the positives, but it doesn't make the negative go away.  I don't think I can live with the negative.

Me, too... to make the most of the positives in them and in myself. And then recently, in examining the negative, what I've found is that... becoming more aquainted with the negative in "them" doesn't influence me for the positive... in fact, just the opposite.... and I don't want to dissolve in anger and bitterness. So the way I'm viewing it now is... my life is still my choice, as it was years ago... only then, I didn't realize that I had a choice. So... NOW is a whole lot better than then. Ignorance is not bliss.

I don't want my son to see how my father treats me.

This is a very valid concern, dear Iphi... the less impact N has on anyone, the better... especially your precious son. And if your father is effecting you, that will impact your son, as well. You both deserve to be N-free.

I feel like my well being and success could actually kill my dad.  Is that magical thinking?  He acts like it hurts him.  Is the magical thinking his?

This stunned me... maybe it is a sort of magical thinking, but on N's part.
For NPD, the loss of control and power seems to have the "incredible shrinking N" effect.
This was a very palpable reality while with my mother last month, as she seemed to wither before my eyes. I felt sorry for her. Several times, I sensed her trying to rally and exert her lifelong style of "empress of the chalet"... but there was no one to dominate. Her audience is gone.
They live in a 2-story A-frame cedar house (not a home). She's always referred to it as "The Chalet". Lord knows, the thought of her makes me nauseous.
I keep trying to think... well, maybe she was "shy" too, and spent a lifetime over-compensating. But once you've seen that bitter envy, there's no doubting it. It's N.

I do think they grow more benign with advanced age. My mother is 81. But Iphi, I don't know how thick a skin it takes to tolerate them in the meanwhile.

Love,
Hope

[Hopalong]

Dear Iphi,
I am so very sorry.

Realizing that your father is NPD after assimilating your mom's schizophrenia disease is the equivalent of being orphaned.

It must be very painful and you are so strong to be facing it anyway. Very strong.

I hope for new attachments and new family of choice to fill in all the yearning spaces in your heart.

Hops

[Ami]

Dear Iphi,
   I think that our healing  lies in the "inner child" .The book that I am reading now is "Healing Your aloneness by Chopich. I just ordered the workbook and another book tonight.
   Inside us is a child that is screaming with pain. It comes out in physical and emotional problems. The key to a good life ( according to them and it does seem true) is to get that connection between the inner loving adult( us at our best) and the inner child( our poor , abused, buried emotions).
Today, as I was at the gym, I tried to listen to my inner child. She told me  things that I did not realize before. One was that I am comparing myself too much to other people( who had good mothers). I look at my life as hopeless when I look at people who have good mothers. I feel worthless, hopeless, helpless and paralyzed. I fee like,"Why bother, I have so much to overcome just to get near "normal".So, I feel like "Why even try?I am so far behind people my age."I am embarrassed and just want to give up.My inner child feels like I have given up on her.
 This was just my experience today but it was very enlightening,Iphi.I feel a hope that I can become whole with the inner child methods                        Love     Ami

[Iphi]

Awww CH - ((((CH))))  I am sorry that bringing up this topic is bringing up stuff for you too.  I hope it is within a space of safety and health and not challenging you too much in a bad way.  I agree that ignorance is not bliss: instead it is slavery.  I've been also reading about your ex on the other topics and am in awe of your hard-won strength.

I think the shyness topic gives me a lot of insight about the roadblocks that I can't seem to get past.  It's as if without nurture one runs out of fuel at certain challenges.  I was reading a book recently that made the same point.  It said that to take the risks to reach your potential, you need a well of support from your relationships or else you will have nothing to fall back upon, and nothing to draw upon.  Made sense to me.  I feel that where I have been stuck is in running out of fuel.  Pretending my dad wasn't disordered, was quirky or good enough, meant I was refusing to acknowledge I needed real fuel and real relationships - because there was 'nothing wrong with my relationships.'  I refused to see and failed to learn and got stuck.  I think that 'fake it til you make it' can be very good advice in the right context, but believe me, I have discovered some real limitations to it.  You can't run on fumes and you can't deny when you are out of gas.  For a long time, it seemed to me I could only get fuel from my dad and wanted to know - why was he withholding it?? know what I mean?

You asked me a few days ago if my dad withholds information and at first I was blank on that.  Then yesterday it came to me - of course he does!  Oh my gosh!  I will tell you the tale in another post, hopefully if I have time and the baby doesn't wake up.  

CH wrote:

For NPD, the loss of control and power seems to have the "incredible shrinking N" effect. This was a very palpable reality while with my mother last month, as she seemed to wither before my eyes. I felt sorry for her. Several times, I sensed her trying to rally and exert her lifelong style of "empress of the chalet"... but there was no one to dominate. Her audience is gone.
They live in a 2-story A-frame cedar house (not a home). She's always referred to it as "The Chalet". Lord knows, the thought of her makes me nauseous.

The chalet, eh?    Brainwave - maybe for these Ns - keeping us down really is life and death to them?  I don't know.  I find that when my dad is clearly weak and etc., then I feel very much pity and compassion for him - which is really not helpful most of the time.  It's not good when the other person is fighting dirty like a rabid animal, and you are feeling all bad for their plight. kwim?
Thanks Hops you are a kind heart.  I have long been reconciled to the lack of maternal presence in my life, but I put all the money on red and spun the wheel, so to speak.  I doubled down on dad.  Happily, fact is I do have a marriage that rejoices me, brings me stability and motivation, makes me grateful, and has given me the courage to confront these other areas.  It really made me feel that to live seriously is worth it, whereas previously there were some wilderness years where I just floated along, basically working all the time and spending time with people doing what they wanted to do - it was all about them - what I did best.  I do have some good-will friendships too, that have lasted a decade and more.  I lost a group of college friends a few years ago when they dumped me and it certainly became clear to me that I needed to take a look at who I was being with and how I was being with them.  So on the whole things are on the up and up.  It was much worse when I wasn't able to get free of my dad in real life - now mainly it is in my own head.

[Iphi]

Ami - this work sounds really interesting and vital to me.  I think it is crucial to keep faith with ourselves.  I feel that every time I knuckled under to my dad and let him mistreat me, I broke faith with myself.  The pressure was high, the right path was unclear to me, but it was the wrong choice - perhaps because I did not understand how important responsibility is.  Now the work is to fix what was broken and  I do believe that no work is ever wasted, especially work that is accomplished within us, rather than in the world where time erases all things. 

A lot of people with good parents still get messed up somehow.  That's my story and I'm sticking to it.   

[teartracks]

RM,

About husband's lack of eye contact.  This is also associated with asperbers and autism. 

CH,

As I read about your friend who emailed about her new job but only mentioned mundane things like early emails and making coffee, it made me think that maybe she really doesn't have a job (for whatever reason) and that she is ashamed to say so.  Just a thought.

tt

Iphi,  I'm reading along.  Good, interesting and informative thread.

tt

[Iphi]

A few days ago CH wrote

I supposed that you might relate to the "shut down" which comes into play when it comes to asking questions... just simple things, like asking someone about their job, or  plans (o my, never ask N about plans).

This took me a while.  I will try to describe a couple of situations.

1.  My dad says he would like to go to the grocery store and to have me drive.  Okay.  We drive to the store.  When we get there, I follow behind him with the cart.  He goes to produce and throws the produce over his shoulder into the cart, looking in my general direction in a contemptuous way as if I am too worthless to hand the oranges to.  Next, I offer to fetch some items while he chooses others.  He ignores this.  We get to the top of Aisle 2.  He pulls out a sheaf of coupons.  He looks at each coupon, and at the sign for the aisle.  Finally, when all the coupons for products on Aisle 2 are set aside, he puts the sheaf back in his pocket.  He holds up the relevant coupons.  He explains to me that the first coupon is for coffee beans.  He hands it to me.  Then he explains to me that the second coupon is for coffee filters.  He hands it to me.  The next coupon is for a certain brand of tea, not the decaffeinated kind.  

Repeat at the top of each aisle.  Then we pay and go to the car and approach the intersection.  He tells me to turn left at the light.  But wait, home is straight ahead through the light.  What could the plan be?  He cannot tell me.  Only, turn left at the light.  So I turn left at the light.  We proceed down the street.  Turn right at the next light.  And etcetera.  Finally we end up in a parking lot of another shopping center and he directs me to a parking space.  Eventually it becomes clear that we are here to find - some item or other.

You can bet I try at various points to suggest alternatives and try to get some information, but remember that if I push it too far then there is a rage.  And the rage is not about him not wanting to answer the question, it will be about how selfish I am that I can't even drive my poor dad to the grocery store, or some other complete distraction maneuver.

It doesn't only happen to me.  Once my sister took him to one store to purchase one mailbox.  Five hours and 6 stores later, they returned to the first store and bought the original mailbox after having scrutinized every single mailbox for sale in a 20 mile radius.  Ok?    I'm just so glad I wasn't along for that trip.

Edited to add:  P.S.  the shopping trip I am describing happened when I was 23.  I know it might be misleading since every coupon had to be specially explained to me.  You may not believe this either, but I have a reasonably high IQ.   

[Ami]

Dear Iphi,
  What hit me as I read your post was that your father wanted power and control. That was the "theme" of the all the situations. I never saw the N behavior quite so clearly as when you described these situations.I have heard the "words' power and control, of course, but I never "saw" how they operated so clearly.
   I got such a profound insight in to what makes the N tick.
   The situations may be different but it is all about exerting power and control------ right down to the coffee bean.
   Iphi, you are really doing well facing all these truths.
    Even though you may not see it, your father did not dim your beautiful light, Iphi         Love   Ami