What kind of relationships do N's have?(revisited)

[wiltay]

I coming into this conversation very late, but so be it--I just can't keep up in real time with all that's going on.  I believe this thread was started on Aug 1st by Sovereign+Safe.
 

Bean said, They can't have give and take so really, there are no relationships, don't you think?

     I think that is the essence of an N--no give and take, no negotiation or willingness to compromise, no 'meet you half-way,'no sharing, no reciprocation, ever. A relationship is on their terms or nothing and that is not a relationship at all.  It's just amazing they can be so successful with people! It's also amazing to me that they are so much alike, like they are a separate species or something.  But more and more I'm seeing N's as developmentally-arrested children in adult bodies.  I don't know exactly what age or stage of development this would be because I've never been a parent and my degree in psyche is over 30 years old, but I know that very young children are like this until with maturity and teaching they learn the give and take of normal adults.  N's never get beyond this early stage, but they have learned to mimic the outer trappings of adulthood.  It's a complete facade, however,  because underneath they're still babies in every sense of the word.  The creepy part is they DO have adult reasoning skills, while the baby runs the show.

debkor said, We see relationships, they see competitions.

That is so true!  It's like a successful relationship to them is where the N holds all the cards, has all the power and controls everything and can declare himself the winner of everything forever.  But if he gets blocked or frustrated--watch out!! MAJOR temper tantrum. It is a young child's view of how the universe works and makes perfect sense to a four(?)year old!  This view is making more and more sense to me and cuts N's down to size (their REAL size I would say).  I believe we are giving them way too much credit.

Bill

[wiltay]

I believe I was with a budding Narcissist on a hike a few weeks back.  She was five years old, EXTREMELY willful, intelligent and precocious and successfully controlling the agenda most of the time, instead of her parents.  She sometimes had a look in her eyes that gave me the creeps--like don't get in my way or else!   She was always trying to control everything her younger companion (a four year-old boy)was doing. For instance, she insisted on picking out each morsel he could have from the bag of trail mix, despite her mother's objections.  She had been adopted by her older parents (50's) who obviously wanted to give her everything in the world, but couldn't seem to figure out how to rein her in.  Very nice, sane people it seemed to me, but I could see what a handful she was for them and how they were at a loss about how to deal with her. I don't know how long they had had her, perhaps not long.   My thought was that if this little girl wins her quest for supremacy she's going to be an N for sure.   

[dandylife]

Wiltay,
very interesting. I've read in the past about how most N's are stilted in their development at an age between 2-5 years old emotionally. This is usually where something has happened to them - something devastating such as a father or mother leaving.

I have a friend who is struggling right now with a child about 11 years old. Willful, neglectful of responsibility, shunning of love and affection. My take is possble Asperger's but they are only in the process now of taking her to a psychiatrist.

When they come over, they always struggle to leave. One parent says, "In 15 minutes, we'll be leaving."

This is ignored completely and half the time it's the parent's fault - they take longer than the 15 minutes to chat more.

One time, my friend had expressed to me his frustration about this. So I said, let me try.

I yelled down the stairs where the children were playing, "Mark (my son) turn off the lights and come upstairs ___ (family) is leaving now!"

As the little girl came running up the stairs behind Mark, I had her coat ready in my hands and said, "Here's your coat, Lauren, find your shoes, now!" She did exactly that.

1 minute later, she said, "Dad! Time to go!" as HE dawdled.

I think part of all this is how others are treated - "dealt with" if you will - communicated with.

I think the other part is the thing within them that does not allow them to behave "normally" in most instances.

I am fascinated by this - as I am dealing with a Borderline mate. I try different approaches and we've had some therapy.

I don't think there is an "answer" for me, but I certainly am open to new experiences.

Thanks for writing!
Dandylife

[Ami]

Thank you Bill,
    This thread showed me more aspects to my N mother.
    It helps to think that they are just"little kids; not big ,powerful "monsters".Nice to hear you , Bill                                              Warmly  Ami

[wiltay]

Dandylife, I find it very interesting and fascinating too which I suppose accounts for my degree in psychology, although I have never practiced in the field (and don't wish too). I'd just rather that acquiring my knowledge of PDs had been voluntary, not mandatory! If I follow you correctly I think you are saying that PDs can be created in different ways or by a combination of ways: (a) a certain emotional trauma at a critical age (b) well-meaning  parents who fail at teaching a child critical lessons for whatever reason; (c) Toxic PD parents teaching a child by example and/or (d)what probably happens every time anyway--a particular combination of nature and nurture.  At some point I stop caring about the why though.  Abusive behavior is abusive, toxic is toxic.  Forgiveness is an area I'm not ready to deal with yet.  You seem farther along that path than I Dandylife.
Thanks for the conversation!
Bill

[wiltay]

Thanks Ami, it's always so nice to hear you too.  That's what I was trying to say--that the Ns I have known seem to be spoiled, arrested children who never achieved normal adult consciences.  Still and all though, even spoiled little kids can be " little monsters" to the people who have to deal with them and then if you add on a high-powered adult brain to the tools available to that child you can wind up with people who are just plain nightmares to the people close to them.  But I'm a believer that knowledge is power and when you know what you are dealing with--an N as someone who functions on a very immature, primitive level, essentially a baby, no matter how toxic they are you are better able to protect yourself.
Talk with you later,
Bill

[reallyME]

Although she'd deny it, Kay definitely has a measure of arrested development.  Raised in a ministry home, she learned to fit an image and learned to resent the "church people" who took up all her parents' time in her young life.  I think she sometimes has a subconscious vendetta against any type of God-fearing, yet vulnerable people that she comes in contact with, and slates them as worthy of punishment by her.

The thing is, if you think N's are rough (and they are)...try an NPD/BPD person.  An N wants you to do things "their way" yet with a BPD, you never know which way IS there way, cause just when you have followed their instructions to the tee, the BPD will say "why did you do that?  I didn't ask you to do that.  What's the matter with you?  I wanted you to do THIS."  With N/BPD's, you never "arrive."  It is the most bizzarre/frustrating feeling in the world!

~Laura

[reallyME]

I just thought of something I want to add to my last post...besides the NPD/BPD never being satisfied because they keep changing the rules on ya, I remember feeling like, with an N, they played the "dangle the carrot and yank it away as you get closer to it, but with the NPD/BPD, the carrot, when you got closer to it, not only yanked away, but, alternately became a turnip or a squash, or a watermelon, or whatever the dysfunctional person decided it was, while you, all the time, were doing what you could to make it to that carrot!

Talk about INSANITY!

[Certain Hope]

Laura,

That's very good.
I think it's because, in The Land of N, there is only one golden carrot... and it's all his/hers.
Like a toddler who won't share toys with a playmate, there's that stingy + envious mentality.
You see two little kids playing side by side... each in his own world, no real interest in what the other is doing. One toy can sit there untouched for an hour, and the moment one reaches for it, the other has to have it right then and there. It becomes the only toy in the world, in his eyes. Yup... I'm thinking this is behaviour of a 2 1/2 year old.

[reallyME]

Hey Hope...here's an idea...wouldn't it be interesting if one of us started a thread on the stages of child development and compared it to the Narcissistic Adult?

[Certain Hope]

Hi Laura,

I think so, yes... could give us some new perspectives to see a sort of charting of child development, compared to various N-disordered folks. 

Just off the top of my head, I can think of several I've known, each at different stages. One was strictly a toddler... age 3, max.;
another seemed more like a pre-teen... without a very well defined sense of right and wrong... maybe 11; and then there's the know-it-all teenager...  very critical of all authority, higher functioning in most things, but wanting to boss everyone around... emotional age about 14-15.
Yup, I can see how we that could help. Good idea!

Hope

[axa]

 Bill,

Thinking two years old myself.  I agree with what you say, my experience was that N thought of himself as omnipotent, centre of the universe, this is very much the phase two year olds go through.  The tantrum would follow any disagreement of his wishes, again two years old.  I have no doubt I was dealing with a toddler who had incredible power, thankfully most toddlers have someone to rein them in but there is no such luck with an N.

As for forgiveness, I think it is mostly about forgiving yourself for being taken in by such a horrible person, for not walking away when the first signs were displayed.

Axa

[dandylife]

Some N's DO get therapy - realize what they are doing to others around them? Or not? ARE there success stories?

Or do we sit here thinking foolishly mine will be the one who changes? Who transforms their behavior?

My therapist - Dr. John Gottman - very well-know marriage therapist - does not "believe" in labeling individuals as N. He does believe in confronting the individual behaviors that are devastating.

But that can be very very tedious.

I'm reading "The Passionate Marriage" right now - talks mainly about differentiation. The true kind - not just "I must be me!" type of attitude, but a real and deliberate differentiation which makes a relationship grow and be better.

This gives me hope.

Dandylife

[axa]

Dandy,

XN went to about 5 therapists in two years.  One named his narcissism which he found amusing.  XN was ALWAYS AWARE of what he was doing but just did not care as long as he got what he wanted.  Also he took a perverse pleasure from seeing others hurt by his behaviour, me for one.  So there was no success there.  I doubt if he has gone back to therapy as he has a good source of supply now in his xwife.  I think for change to occur one must want to change.  My experience is that Ns want everyone else to change or at least to carry out the wishes of the N unquestionly. 

My experience is that when you contront an N about their behaviour it sends them into a rage, either acted out there and then, or stored to sting you with later.

When I was studying psychology I read The Passionate Marriage and I do believe it is about differentiation but one does not live in isolation and constant undermining and abuse would wear down any human being. 

Sorry I cannot be more positive.

axa