Crazy making.....

[Michelle]

Crisis alert!!!!!  You've been warned!  

Why does my N-Mother insist on pulling me into her crazy world?     As I said in my first post, I have just recently starting setting some serious boundaries with her - as in not talking with her at all.  It has been 2 weeks Monday since I talked to her last - a HUGE record as she usually calls at least once every couple of days.  She left a message on my birthday (of course, it centered on her:  "Michelle, where are you?  I wanted to tell you happy birthday.  I hope you'll call me because I can't imagine not talking to you on your birthday.  Call me as soon as you get this")  URGHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!  She also emailed my daughter once (she is only 2 years old and she writes her long emails like she can read or understand them.....and of course they are about her "I bet you miss mamaw don't you?  Do you wish mamaw could come see you?  I know mamaw is your best friend").  It makes me sick.  Well, I didn't acknowlege either one.  Tonight she called (it's my stepdad's birthday) and left this message "Well, I guess you are either really busy or you just don't want to talk to me, WHATEVER!!!  I'll have you know it was Steve's birthday today and you didn't even call him.  I think that's pretty sorry of you.  I'll just sit around and wait until you want to talk to me.  Tell the kids I love them, BYE." and as she hung up I could hear a groan of frustration.  I swear - when these episodes happen I have a hard time realizing what true "healthy" reality must be like.  I can't imagine a world where people's parents actually care about them - sincerely and unselfishly.  It's a sad life when you are so pathetic that you have to try to ruin your own CHILD'S life!  

Thank you for letting me vent.  My husband listens but I know you guys truly UNDERSTAND.  I always feel angry and then sorry for myself after these episodes.  She makes me feel crazy when I talk to her.  I guess it's a good thing that my counselor has helped me get to the point where I can draw the line about not talking to her.  I think the kid in me feels like I am doing something really "naughty" and "unforgivable" by not talking with her.  Help!  Does anyone else feel this way?  

Michelle  

[Anonymous]

Hi Michelle,

My mother doesn't ring me anymore but she gets her nasty messages through, still occassionally.   Boring and predictable as ever.

But hey, I was trying to think of a cool answering machine message you could have, like, "Hi, I'm not able to come to the phone at the moment, but leave a message. I'll return your call when I can. Oh, and by the way, if it's you mum, can you just try to leave a nice guilt-free message please. And if you think you can manage that I'll return your message when I feel up to it. Bye."
           

Imagine her face      

CG

[Michelle]

CG -

Thank you for your post.  It was the first laugh I've had since my mother called.  I really need to put some serious thought into that phone message.  She would FREAK!!!!!  It would be hilarious.  

Your great!

Michelle

[Anonymous]

Yeah, hahahahahahahit would probably make her as mad as hell.    I thought of another one I'd use if it was my
mother. This would make my mother cough up a fur ball.
Warning, this message would take extreme resolution.

"Hello, sorry we can't take your call. As you probably know,
we're avoiding speaking with my narcissistic mother.
All my life she's tried  to make me feel like I'm some sort
of revolting individual, and make me feel responsible for
her and her own misery. Everytime she rings I find myself
stressed afterwards, so now we've decided it's best not to
answer the phone till we know who's calling.
Sorry for the inconvenience, but if you just leave your
name and number we'll get back to you."

hahahahahahahahahahahahahahah

Mightn't fix anything, but then, what would?

CG

[rosencrantz]

I have spent so many years being frightened of the phone in case it's my mother!  I make sure I do all my business by email and the good people in my life are gradually getting online one way or another!!!

I had no idea I was such a weak-kneed lily pad until I started writing on this board.  It just didn't fit with the person I had become in the outside world.  Chair of this, Non-Exec Director of that.  But when I had a child something started to happen and I lost my confidence. I got more and more tired, gradually let go of all the 'outer world' stuff and then I began to get more and more apprehensive and under the thumb generally.  A few things in the outside world had 'got at' my confidence, too.  All because of my childhood script of helplessness, my 'integrity' (hollow laugh) which left me without resources to really stand up for myself and the impact of 'Ns'.

I seem to have spent my life building up my confidence, taking part in the big bad world then coming under attack and sliding back down the snakes and ladders board again.

I know that realising the pattern of what's going on in the outside world and the connection with the decisions I made as a child has helped me enormously.  But the only way we'll stop the Ns in our lives is to work on our own resilience, find out why we feel guilty, what buttons they are pressing.  

Every now and then I think I'm going to wake up in a minute and discover this forum was just one big dream.  None of that ever happened.  Here I am back in my cosy ideal of happy families and 'just getting on with it'.  But I can't go back.  I know too much!!!!!  The secrets aren't secret any more (unless there's another rake waiting for me round the corner!!!)

Two excellent books about handling parents, understanding ourselves - you'll find them on the book list - authors : Secunda/Nina Brown

There's also a post here about Daughters who Defect with a quote from the Secunda book.  

Good luck
R

[write]

it's interesting to hear these phone tales, I rarely pick up the phone to this day after all the years of phone hassle from my father.

I can't imagine a world where people's parents actually care about them - sincerely and unselfishly.

unbelievable isn't it.

At least you didn't take that pattern of unhealthy relating into marriage, as so many of us did.

It's so hard to accept once you have your own children too.
Many times little things come back to me and I think 'the b**t**ds!'

Little me playing at concerts and scanning the hall for a parent, sports day and I'm one of the kids whose parent doesn't come and watch and cheer, then having to listen to drunken rambling about how they gave me everything, parties where we can't go at the last minute because of some half-assed reason- usually someone giving offence, probably imagined, being hungry or scared...

And never getting an apology or explanation. Ever.
Once my mother left my father conveniently blamed everything on her, and as she disappeared for a year or so ( ultimate mother failure- abandonning your children ) everyone else did too and pitied dad, and he never had to take any responsibility, though he went on to do more damage than she did truth be told.

They were one sorry pair of parents.
I pity them now, having so few skills to hold it together and no motivation to even try to learn how to be parents.


I think the kid in me feels like I am doing something really "naughty" and "unforgivable" by not talking with her. Help! Does anyone else feel this way?


I have done somewhat.
I think it recedes as you take control of your life and push ANY damaging people out.

People who constantly undermine your view of the world and your fragile self-esteem are TOO harmful to healing and emotional health. Remind yourself of that, and let all these attempts at controlling/ interfering/ not accepting your boundaries reinforce how damaging this woman is to you. 'PUT YOUR OWN RECOVERY FIRST', no. one priority.

I haven't even told my extended family about my marriage breakup. They don't care about me, and I don't care what they think.

[Michelle]

"Hello, sorry we can't take your call. As you probably know, we're avoiding speaking with my narcissistic mother.
All my life she's tried  to make me feel like I'm some sort
of revolting individual, and make me feel responsible for
her and her own misery. Everytime she rings I find myself
stressed afterwards, so now we've decided it's best not to
answer the phone till we know who's calling.
Sorry for the inconvenience, but if you just leave your
name and number we'll get back to you."

hahahahahahahahahahahahahahah

Mightn't fix anything, but then, what would?

CG

CG - you crack me up.  This was the first thing I read this morning and now I can't stop laughing!  I actually think I like this one better.  

Your second remark, "Mightn't fix anything, but then what would?"  

Wow - that hit me like a ton of bricks.  Being so new at counseling, I am also new to healing.  I am still coming to the realization and acceptance of that remark.  That no matter what I do I can't fix this.  That is a hard one for me.  I know I can't fix everything, but I think that a few of my "learned" bad traits are being a people pleaser and trying to make everything "better" for everyone around me.  Thank you for reinforcing what I know to be true but am having a hard time accepting.  I appreciate your honesty and HUMOR!  Keep it coming!

~~Michelle

[Michelle]

All because of my childhood script of helplessness, my 'integrity' (hollow laugh) which left me without resources to really stand up for myself and the impact of 'Ns'.

R - You too are making lightbulbs go off in my head.  As I said to CG before, I am new to counseling and healing.  All these remarks are really getting inside my head - in a good way.  I have been imprisoned in my mother's world for so long that I am just beginning to learn what the outside world is like.  I am slowly looking my "lack of resources" squarely in the face.  It hurts.  It is embarrassing.  But most of all, right now at least, I am mad as h*ll!  

I know that realising the pattern of what's going on in the outside world and the connection with the decisions I made as a child has helped me enormously. But the only way we'll stop the Ns in our lives is to work on our own resilience, find out why we feel guilty, what buttons they are pressing.

I know that is true, but right now I am so in this thing "emotionally" that I find that hard to see from an objective point of view.  Is that something that I will be able to see more of as I heal?  

Thank you for the book references.  I haven't gotten that far yet, but it is on my mental list of things to do.  You guys have all been so so helpful already in making me feel like I can overcome this awful nightmare of a life!

Thank you, R!
~~Michelle

[Michelle]

At least you didn't take that pattern of unhealthy relating into marriage, as so many of us did.

I am very blessed with that - my marriage is actually very healthy, mostly due to my husband.  However, part of the reason I started counseling when I did is because of my repressed anger that started leaking out like something toxic!  I never realized all that was in there.  My 2 year old would do something "typically 2 year old" and I would get so mad.  I am a teacher by trade, so I usually put on my happy face and just feel mad inside.  But a few times I have said really hateful things or just given her really mean, undeserving looks.  I realized that I was mirroring my mother and it totally freaked me out.  That's when I immediately started counseling.  It has been the best decision I have ever followed through with!  

Little me playing at concerts and scanning the hall for a parent, sports day and I'm one of the kids whose parent doesn't come and watch and cheer, then having to listen to drunken rambling about how they gave me everything, parties where we can't go at the last minute because of some half-assed reason- usually someone giving offence, probably imagined, being hungry or scared...

And never getting an apology or explanation. Ever.

I think that is the part that hurts the most, isn't it Write?  That we know they never valued us enough to even just APOLOGIZE or EXPLAIN their behavior!  My inner child is still just wishing for that.  If I got an apology (sincere), I have no doubt that I could honestly begin to truly forgive her.  They will never realize the impact that their absence in our childhood left.  Feelings of desertion, lonliness, inferiority, confusion, responsibility.  Whoa - I'm not sure where that last one came from.  I need to ponder on that one for a while.  Scary.  See what happens when you let your heart open again?  Gheesh!

People who constantly undermine your view of the world and your fragile self-esteem are TOO harmful to healing and emotional health. Remind yourself of that, and let all these attempts at controlling/ interfering/ not accepting your boundaries reinforce how damaging this woman is to you. 'PUT YOUR OWN RECOVERY FIRST', no. one priority.

You are so right.  I am going to print that quote for my refrigerator.  It is very motivating and I need to memorize it.  

I'm sorry to hear about your marriage breakup.  If I can be as bold as to ask.....was it directly hurt due to the issues you are having to deal with?  I am also sorry for you having to suffer as a child.  I can truly feel your pain.  It makes me so sad for what we have both lost and will never regain.  I want so much more for my children.....freedom to be who they are and embrace it, knowing they are unconditionally loved no matter what, knowing they are cherished, looking back on their childhood with fond memories - that is what gets me through the hard times.  Focusing on them and seeing my new "role" as a parent as one where I can (kind of) repair myself by taking better care of them.

Best wishes and thanks for your thoughts.  

~~Michelle

[Caroline]

Hi Michelle,
This is my first time at this site and your message is the first one I read.  I swear I could have written it myself!  I have been trying to set some boundaries with my Nmom, who does indeed make me crazy.  She tries to have a relationship with my one-year old -- she constantly sends her gifts and wants to talk to her on the phone.  She thinks she can have this great relationship with my girl completely independently of me.  I also feel like a bad daughter for trying to cut her off, like I'm fulfilling her portrayal of me as an ungrateful daughter.  The thing that's different with me is that my mom hasn't called me in 18 months.  She didn't even call to wish me happy birthday, but she left a message on our phone wishing my girl happy birthday.  WHenever she sends gifts, I feel obliged to call and thank her and then i feel manipulated.  I've been trying to cut off verbal communication and just write notes or cards, but I know she gets mad because she's not a letter-writing person.  I stress a lot about my her relationship with my daughter.  What will I tell her when she asks about her grandparents?  Will my parents try to make contact with her?  Won't I look like the evil one keeping grandparents from their only grandchild?  Will my daughter resent me for it?  Ugh.  

After the birth of my daughter, my parents came to visit us for 10 days (pure hell) and instead of helping out, they literally sat around or hovered over me while I tried to nurse, waiting for a turn to hold my baby. I felt guilty when I wanted to hold my new baby myself.  She was snatched out of my arms as soon as she was done feeding.  I was recovering from a cesarean, struggling with nursing (which my mom was completely unsupportive of) and feeling very stressed because our baby was losing too much weight.   They didn't even seem to notice that I was in pain, exhausted, etc. They chose to go out to eat instead of cooking at home and I was NOT capable of cooking for everyone.  They later complained that we were less-than-gracious hosts for making them go out to eat when we should have been eating together as a family.   Every other person I know who's had a baby has family that comes to take care of them!  

It's mostly my mom, but my Dad has no spine and sounds more and more like her every day, so they're one and the same for me.  They are completely unable to acknowledge or empathize with my feelings under any circumstance.  Yet, I feel guilty for cutting them off.  I just worry so much about my daughter.  I have heard about Nparents who use their grandkids to get at their children, to keep us in their web.  It's so manipulative.  

You're doing the right thing -- stay strong.  I think at some point, we will feel empowered for taking control of our lives and our emotions.  If we don't play their games anymore, they don't have control over us!  Easier said than done though!

-Caroline

[Anonymous]

Michelle and Caroline,

My heart goes out to you for having such mothers (I use the word loosely) who are so heartless, and who use your children as conduits for their venom and evil.

It's okay if the child in you feels horrible, guilty, and wants to repair these loser mothers. Nothing wrong with that. We all have inner children who wish for things they can't have. It's just how we're hardwired.

The main thing is to listen to the adult part of you and act pragmatically and self-protectively. Your therapists can help your inner child deal with the disappointment of these crappy mothers.

My mother is a big letdown too (though not as bad as yours); and I will never get over it. But I have to put this bummer aside most of the time so I can enjoy life.

bunny

[Michelle]

Hi Caroline, thanks for posting!  I am glad you are here.  

Our situations sound very similar, don't they!

She tries to have a relationship with my one-year old -- she constantly sends her gifts and wants to talk to her on the phone.  She thinks she can have this great relationship with my girl completely independently of me.

 

Doesn't that make you sick?  Your right - our moms are exactly the same in that area!  I don't really understand the mentality behind their relationship with our children.  My mother also sends gifts to my daughter.  Of course, it's always things that my mother likes, not what my daughter wants!

I'm sorry to hear that your mother hasn't contacted you - in a sense.  It sounds like it may be better for you if she doesn't.  I am also trying to cut off communication (I may write occasionally) verbally and it is VERY hard.  Right now, I am in the stage of "nasty" phone messages left by my mother.  

You said that you were worried about what your daughter might think in the future about your decision.  My counselor made a good point on this one.  Would you rather explain to her that "grandma is not well" and all that entails OR would you rather try to help your daughter heal from the damage that your mother could possibly give her?  I would rather do the first personally.  It will be sad for her to understand, but I have made one decision 100% - no going back on.  My mother WILL NOT damage my children the way she has damaged me.  I refuse to let her do that.  

After the birth of my daughter, my parents came to visit us for 10 days (pure hell) and instead of helping out, they literally sat around or hovered over me while I tried to nurse, waiting for a turn to hold my baby. I felt guilty when I wanted to hold my new baby myself.

 

That is scary.  My mom wanted to come out when our second child was born, but I refused for that exact reason.  I know she would have been the same exact way.  She has only been to visit us twice (we live on opposite coasts, thank goodness) and it was MISERY!!!!!  I will never do that again.

I just want you to know that you are not alone.  You will find very supportive people here who UNDERSTAND what you are going through.  YOU stay strong too.  Do not let your guilt influence your decisions regarding the safekeeping of your child from your mother.  

Thank you for posting.  I appreciate your views - it is nice to have someone who can empathize with you!  

Take care of yourself,
Michelle

[Michelle]

Thank you Bunny.  You are very kind and encouraging.  I am sorry about your mother, too.  I don't think there is a "level" of awfulness here.  If your parents treat you badly, they treat you badly.  You hurt as much as I hurt.  I am sorry you had to experience that as well.  

Feeling your pain,

Michelle

[Wildflower]

Hi write,

Little me playing at concerts and scanning the hall for a parent, sports day and I'm one of the kids whose parent doesn't come and watch and cheer, then having to listen to drunken rambling about how they gave me everything, parties where we can't go at the last minute because of some half-assed reason- usually someone giving offence, probably imagined, being hungry or scared...

And never getting an apology or explanation. Ever.

Me, too.  Only it was parents' day or some other school activity where all the other parents were there.  Only, I got an explanation.  It was because all those parents were interfering with their children and controlling them and besides they didn't have to work, they had it easy and stayed home with the kids and had no life of their own (um yikes.  wow.  hunh, never put that down into words before).  That's the reason mom always had at hand for why she was never at my school functions, why she never helped me with homework or school projects.  It goes on.  I never got an apology, though.  And it was assumed I agreed with her and didn't want her interfering in my life (being there to support me).

"I bet you miss mamaw don't you? Do you wish mamaw could come see you? I know mamaw is your best friend"

I don't know your mom, but this reads like she's already ramping up to manipulate your child.  It sounds like your child may not be safe around her when she's older...just wanted to put that out there.  Not sure if it makes sense or applied.{EDIT: this was meant for Michelle but I missed Caroline's and Michelle's posts above and it seems like you guys are already way down this path. }

Wildflower

[Caroline]

Michelle and Bunny,
Thanks for your responses.  I've been feeling so alone -- eveyone I know seems to have normal parents.  

Bunny, thanks for the validation and reminder that it's normal to feel the guilt.  I'm constantly struggling with the feeling that I could/should do something to improve the situation, yet I know that I am powerless to change my N mom.  I haven't reached a stage of acceptance yet.  And for the most part, like you, I also try to put this aside so it doesn't affect all areas of my life, but it's hard sometimes, isn't it?  Especially with mother's day around the corner. ...

Michelle, I'm sorry that your mother is being so nasty.  I think you got some great suggestions for your answering machine!!  Did you actually tell your mother that you needed some space or did you just stop calling and taking her calls?  Just curious.....  And thanks for the perspective on what to tell my daughter.  What do you do about the gifts your mother sends for your daughter?  

In some ways, it is easier that my mother doesn't call, but I know she thinks that it's my duty as the daughter to keep in touch.  I should be forever grateful for all the things she's done for me, all the money she's spent on me (she brings money up all the time and uses it to buy people), the sacrifices she made to send me to college -- and it's not that I'm ungrateful, on the contrary.  I just realized that she didn't do these things purely for ME, she did them for her.  She views me as a reflection of her and when I don't conform to what she wants me to to be, it's insulting to her.  She hated my independence.  She views it as my rejecting her.  She wants me to need her in every aspect of my life.  

Sorry for jumping all over the place, but things are just coming through me from all over the place.  Back to the money issue, I told you how horrible she was to me when she visited after my baby was born, right?  Well, she bought me these expensive diamond earrings.  I thanked her, but I tried to tell her that I would have preferred to have her love and support instead.  She became livid and accused me of being ungrateful because she spent so much time and money on them and she doesn't have a lot of money, but everything she has, she gives to me and my sister, blah blah blah.  She buys me things that I don't even want or need and then uses it against me.  I'm also supposed to reciprocate and buy her lavish gifts, which sickens me.  

Sometimes I also get the wierd feeling that she's jealous of me.... but then I think I'm going crazy. ....

Anyway, I apologize for ranting -- it's just that I haven't really talked about this in a long time.

-Caroline