Wrongly Shaped Conscience And Voicelessness. Are They Related & How?

[lighter]

  So ,that is having a conscience,but choosing to do what you want even though you know it is wrong
   I had a b/f who I think was a sociopath. That was a whole new ball game than an N.(YIKES, I could be in some ditch,now.)
 Ami

Ami..... I'm not sure I follow here.

Are you saying you think sociopaths don't have the ability to tell right from wrong?

[Ami]

Dear Lighter,
 Storms  recommended book about sociopaths describes them as not having a conscience. So, they could do wrong( hurt or even kill someone) and not feel guilty about it. Where a normal person feels badly if they hurt someone's feelings ,for example. A sociopath feels nothing..  That is how I read it.
                                 Love    Ami
 

[sun blue]

Back to the issue of empathy for a moment....

Personally, I do not think you are born with empathy.  I think it can be learned.  That's why I get so frustrated and even angry with people who do not demonstrate empathy.  For me, empathy is a choice, just like kindness or generosity or helpfulness.  My feeling is if you care enough about the other person, you can and should empathize with them.  Because empathy is a way to show that caring.  Empathy is not necessarily sympathy although often sympathy is offered as well.  Rather, empathy is understanding, caring enough to take the time to understand what the other person is experiencing, and letting them know you understand their pain, acknowledge their pain and, hopefully, want to help them deal with that pain.  Empathy is just soooo powerful.  It is so validating to the person experiencing that pain.  Think about it.  When you're hurting, you're vulnerable and often feel alone.  Empathy is a way of communicating to that person that they are not alone, that there is perhaps hope.

The other comment I had was regarding the term co-narcissist.  I'm not familiar with that term regarding NPD.  Is it another way to describe the co-dependent person?  To me, co-narcissist would indicate that the person is also a narcissist, but the co-dependent is not.  Could you offer me an example of this?

[Ami]

Dear Sun,
  I think that ' co- narcissist" is someone who is just unfortunate enough to be in the way when the big truck ( called an N) comes barreling down the street                            Love    Ami

[gratitude28]

Sun,
I think you are right. I know I worked very hard to teach my kids empathy. I think without this learned habit, it would be a dog -eat-dog world, because initially I think humans were primal and did not need empathy. Children (like our Ns) are completely without empathy. They want what is theirs and that is that. Their world is focused on self-preservation, as it need be. Adults should have learned that living in a society means respecting others... but the Ns are stuck in the childish vision of the world.
Love, Beth

[gratitude28]

Let's see, tt:

I know I was voiceless in my will, in that I believed that no matter how I acted, there was a predetermined outcome.

I was voiceless in intellect because I learned to believe what was taught to me without questioning the source. That was considered "bad."

I was voiceless in emotion because I had been told what I was supposed to be feeling. (I know you are sad, but... - that assumption was forced on me).

I believe my moral reasoning might have been the least affected by them, once I grew up a bit. I was able to recognize what I thought was right and wrong alone to an extent, or I would be more like them.

My personality was affected, but not shaped by them. I think personality is innate and can be influenced, but not determined by environment.

Senses- I was told what I was supposed to like... (How can you NOT like that... I never knew that you didn't like {for the 20th time} ...). I think these also might be innate.

Totally subjective. Is that any help??? What an amazing question.

Love, Beth

[finding peace]

Hey tt,

I have been thinking of your question since you posted it.

My first thought was no they are not related – but I am rethinking this.

I see my conscience as the part of me that knows right from wrong.  It is the part of me that is the keeper of the tenets by which I act towards other people.  For example, one of the rules I live by is to do no harm, at all, unless absolutely necessary (eg., life-threatening situation).  I have trouble stepping on an ant .  If I do harm then it is unintentional and reparation must be made.

I believe that my particular brand of voicelessness arises, at its most basic, from fear and from not trusting myself.  For me it arises out of a feeling place, which to me is different from conscience.  Where I am most voiceless is in how I allow others to treat me.

Although is it different?  Perhaps conscience develops out of emotions to eventually end up dissociated from emotion (thinking about the Freudian model here – where we are born ids, and develop a superego [a conscience]). 

In this way, I think voicelessness may contribute to the development of conscience, but eventually, conscience ends up as an entity separate from voicelessness - but nonetheless has been profoundly impacted by voicelessness.

IOW, using this one rule that I have – to do no harm - perhaps this rule (my conscience) developed because of the early environment that I lived in.  I knew how badly I felt at being treated the way I was, and I refused to treat others this way, as I did not want to create that negativity in another person.  I also had absolutely no control over others and learned at a very early age in a very warped world that the only control I had was over myself.  So perhaps, my conscience is “wrongly-shaped” as it is one-sided.  Perhaps a “rightly- shaped” conscience allows for rules for both how you treat others and for how others may treat you.

I don’t know the answer – but what a thought-provoking question!

Peace

PS.  If any of this makes sense it is a miracle – curse of the INTJ I think, can see it, but have a hard time putting it into words! (Also - haven't even started to think on the other variables you pointed out - will, intellect,...)

[Bella_French]

Back to the issue of empathy for a moment....

Personally, I do not think you are born with empathy.  I think it can be learned.  That's why I get so frustrated and even angry with people who do not demonstrate empathy.  For me, empathy is a choice, just like kindness or generosity or helpfulness.  My feeling is if you care enough about the other person, you can and should empathize with them.  Because empathy is a way to show that caring.  Empathy is not necessarily sympathy although often sympathy is offered as well.  Rather, empathy is understanding, caring enough to take the time to understand what the other person is experiencing, and letting them know you understand their pain, acknowledge their pain and, hopefully, want to help them deal with that pain.  Empathy is just soooo powerful.  It is so validating to the person experiencing that pain.  Think about it.  When you're hurting, you're vulnerable and often feel alone.  Empathy is a way of communicating to that person that they are not alone, that there is perhaps hope.

The other comment I had was regarding the term co-narcissist.  I'm not familiar with that term regarding NPD.  Is it another way to describe the co-dependent person?  To me, co-narcissist would indicate that the person is also a narcissist, but the co-dependent is not.  Could you offer me an example of this?

Dear Sun,

I feel that you are describing `empathetic behaviour', rather than the `experience' of empathy, which is the internaisation of another's feelings.

From what I understand, empathy is with us from birth as a survival need, used as  kind of barometer for measuring our primary care-givers feelings. This is the mechanism by which babies internalise their mother's emotions which can result in  core wounds, such as shame and survival fears.

Its believed to be how psychopaths and N's come about. They `shut off' their empathy (for their primary care-giver) because the internalised shame and fear they experience is too intense, and cannot be mentally processed.

X Bella

[Certain Hope]

Dear Sun,

I feel that you are describing `empathetic behaviour', rather than the `experience' of empathy, which is the internaisation of another's feelings.

From what I understand, empathy is with us from birth as a survival need, used as  kind of barometer for measuring our primary care-givers feelings. This is the mechanism by which babies internalise their mother's emotions which can result in  core wounds, such as shame and survival fears.

Its believed to be how psychopaths and N's come about. They `shut off' their empathy (for their primary care-giver) because the internalised shame and fear they experience is too intense, and cannot be mentally processed.

X Bella

Thank you for this explanation, Bella. Now I'm pretty sure that my earlier position on this - believing that no one is born with empathy - was wrong.
There is definitely a difference between empathetic experience and behaviour... kinda like the difference between hearing and listening.

Just thinking... feels to me like I have to shut off empathy for my mother and others like her in order to continue behaving with empathy for those with whom the experience would have some meaning. Just at this moment, it feels like an either/or situation.

Thanks again.

Love,
Carolyn 

[sun blue]

On the subject of sociopaths....

I was unfortunate enough to be involved with someone who turned out to be both N and a true sociopath.  What was said earlier is true.  They have no conscience.  They know what is right and wrong.  They know the "wrong" will hurt others but they simply dont care.  Essentially, they have no heart.  THey can see that something they do or say hurts you, but it doesn't affect them in any way.  A true sociopath is a very dangerous person.  Because they have no conscience they not only are relentness in their damaging emotional behaviors with you, but they think nothing of committing crimes, physically hurting others or engaging in seriously damaging behaviors.  They lie incessantly.  They engage in extreme behaviors----sex, drugs, alcohol.  They commit crimes.  All without any thought to any other person but themselves.
When you combine the sociopath diagnosis with the N diagnosis (which is not uncommon), you have a very dangerous combination.

With the N, they have a conscious in that they know what's right and wrong and they know the wrong hurts another person.  However, they only are affected by another's feelings when it affects them directly.  They are self driven.  THus, if they say something to their spouse which hurts their feelings, the N is only affected when the spouse distances from them or doesn't give them what they want.  In both cases, the sociopath and the N, it's important to remember that in their minds, the world revolves around them.  Other people are only in this world to serve their needs and purposes.