Emasculating insecure Dads

[Spirit]

Well not many men around here but still I wanted to talk about this effect.. cos I felt like shouting out loud !!

First of all I think 'dehumanising' is a better term to 'emasculating' but some how ( sadly) due to cultural norms many a man see insecurity as 'un manly' ( women don't call it defeminising do they ) But I suppose so I will go along with the word 'emasculating' cos after all thats how I think my dad saw it and forced me to see it !

He has the habit of hiding behind " your mother" s cloak to come out with insecure feelings and even had the nerve to term it " sadly that is feminity" and humiliate his wife even publicly for being what he called "feminity"
He even felt a bit intimidated by me I suppose.. cos hew would gladly group me along with my mom.. and call " you both are soft " and the reason for it being " your mother being a woman couldnt help but make you feel soft and cowardly " and even manage to put himself as a hero " despite my hardest efforts your mom has made you soft "

Its not her. She was never there for me. She was emotionally dead even before I was born.. to see who killed her emotions would be like doing post mortem.. but I am sure he would have had a share !

So who was this invisible mom ? It was him !! A man who couldnt bring himself up to showing emotions " cos it was going soft " for him i suppose. And a man who was so ashamed and insecure oh himself that he treid to hide me and his wife in a closet so that his shame would die with it !

Emulating him, growing up following the 'truths' he told me, i never had much breathing space t oshow emotions did i ? and that too when there was no woman in the family ( only a walking zombie )

Times are changing now.. slowly I am trying to give myself more flexibility.. atleast I am identifying truth from lies.. baby steps !

Spirit

[Tokyojim]

Your father sounds like a cold man who tried to belittle others in order to make himself feel more powerful.

For yourself, I do not think you shoud think in terms of maleness and femaleness (i.e., masculinity and feminity).  Our modern culture has forced those terms on men, and women have given us conflicting messages.  Despite what women say about wanting men to show feelings, a recent survey has shown that women do not like men to cry, to show emotions, and they want men to be in control of themselves and situations.  Forget what the feminists write; that is the truth of the matter.

People like your father will use these terms and ideas to control and exert power.  You have your feelings, and it makes no difference if they seem feminine or masculine.  You are what you are, and your father should respect that.

[Anonymous]

Hi Jim, thanks for your reply.

Your father sounds like a cold man who tried to belittle others in order to make himself feel more powerful.[/unquote]

I think 'not owning up' as a better word to describe him. Infact he is very sensitive and frightened of life big time. He always fears for his life etc. But he cant own up and would claim that it is my mom who is always worried and sensitive. Thats what I meant by 'hiding behind her'

He also portrays me as a 'weakling' and 'vulnerable' so that he can 'use' me to express some childish or tender feelings which otherwise he is ashamed to own up for himself for fear of being termed 'sissy' or childish or whatever. Infact here I wish he would listen to the feminists and own up !

Cold is a word I would gladly use to describe my mom though

For yourself, I do not think you shoud think in terms of maleness and femaleness (i.e., masculinity and feminity).  Our modern culture has forced those terms on men, and women have given us conflicting messages.  Despite what women say about wanting men to show feelings, a recent survey has shown that women do not like men to cry, to show emotions, and they want men to be in control of themselves and situations.  Forget what the feminists write; that is the truth of the matter.[/unquote]

Well I am not distinguishing feelings in terms of malenes or femaleness. I was merely highlighting the limitations that was imposed within that 'malesness' cloak by my dad who obviously looks things that way ( same goes to my mom too ) What I mean by emotions is the continous spectrum.

For a man "to be in control of themselves and situations" very definitely involves getting in control of feeling ( the continuous spectrum) and master them too isnt it ?  For that I won't mind crying for start ( greiving.. learning tears ) no point in hiding away from it. Thats becoming couragious for me..path to empowerment ! not going soft.

I think emotionally empowered man is the term you were looking for and I do fully agree with that ! I am sure women who are not intimidated my emotionally mature man would love it too !

spirit

[Tokyojim]

I have never heard of the term, "emotionally empowered man," but it sounds like you are on the right track!

[mrt]

Spirit,

you both are soft

When it all boils down  -  this is really just his opinion. Nothing he said or says makes it true in any way.  Did you ask for his opinion?

I've come to the conclusion after 39+years of being a guy  - that hey I'm a guy too. Whatever I "feel" (fill in the blank)  is what a guy feels - 'cause I'm a guy- This is what the good Lord made me! I'm a human being and we all "feel" things anyway. Labeling them doesn't help us in anyway. Soft or tough weak or strong. It's all someone's opinion isn't it.  Logic tells me that I'm not alone in how I feel. I'm not the first to feel this way in the history of men and I won't be the last.  

Men hiding under a macho facade is so obvious to me now. I used to think I wasn't "man" enough cause I wasn't as tough enough, masculine enough, blah blah blah. But I've come to realize that WE (men)  all feel this way and WE have the same feelings - some are just better at hiding the truths from themselves than others.

If you are male then you have a right to "feel" whatever it is your feeling whether it's labeled "weak" or "soft"  or whatever. Who really cares what some other's guy's or gal's opinion is of it. Does it change how you "feel"?  "Does it literally make you a female cause you feel this way? Heck no! Some people and their opinions!  

Be yourself. If others have their opinions and they don't accept you as you are then it's their loss - not yours. You really don't need their toxicity anyway.

Re: Crying - I can cry at some of the stupidest times and laugh at  wrong times. I once saw a girl ,when I was 12, get slapped by a truck mirror and did a 360 degree flip in the air. I thought it was the funniest thing I had ever seen and I laughed my ass off. The girls around me were mortified at my behavior.  Just recently I was watching "Overhauled" on TV and cried like a baby, when they gave this kid his new and improved car because they had done such an incredible and awesome job on this car.
Go figure. I'm a guy. I make no apologies on how I feel when I feel it. I'm not weak I'm not strong. I am what I am and If you don't like it then who gives a sh**!

You need to tell your dad to shut the fu** up AND to keep his "opinions" to himself - cause he's mistaken you for someone who gives sh** what he "thinks"! or something to that effect  

mrt

[Tokyojim]

That "macho" thing can be difficult.  People want to simply be respected, and men can feel pressure to "be a man!"  They can say that it does not matter, but I think that they all feel the pressure, challenge to some degree.  It does not mean one should conform, but one has to make a decision about whether it is worth it to make a stand, ignore it, fake it, etc.

It may be difficult for the ladies to understand this and see where it is coming from.  What I find interesting is that it rarely comes from the ladies; it usually comes from other men!

I can remember having my masculinity being challenged because I said that I did not like to hunt and felt sorry for the animals.  On another occasion, it was because I did not know much about football.  Maybe that is one thing that is relaxing about the ladies: that nonsense really stops and the emotional side is more accepted.  In many ways, I am envious of the ladies for having this.

But, with your father, remember that it is simply a tactic for control or power or a way to put you down.  I have found that the ones who make the biggest issue about being "masculine" usually have the opposite feelings themselves.

[Spirit]

If you are male then you have a right to "feel" whatever it is your feeling whether it's labeled "weak" or "soft"  or whatever. Who really cares what some other's guy's or gal's opinion is of it. Does it change how you "feel"?  "Does it literally make you a female cause you feel this way? Heck no! Some people and their opinions!  

Be yourself. If others have their opinions and they don't accept you as you are then it's their loss - not yours. You really don't need their toxicity anyway.

Hi Mrt,

Thanks a lot for your reply.

That really makes sense doesn't it. It is such a shame that some people ( like my dad ) cannot come to terms with it and has to use me and impose his opinions to 'validate' his mask ! This along with my moms reaffirmations if his stance ( for purely selfish reasons.. ie. not to get herself into trouble ) She even was willing to neglect her own child ( that too the only child ) for her own selfish sake.. what kind of a person is she ?


Unfortunately though I must admit at this point though that I too have carried on toxicating myself in certain ways.. carrying on from where they left and have questioned even basic things about myself like sexuality, gender etc It is like a battle for me. Battle between that toxic self and my true self..long way to go for me. Its like a Jekyl and Hyde for me.. I the true self need to win

 I wish I draw strnght by talking to like minded people !! and am so glad that I found this MB

I will keep strong !
spirit

[Spirit]

That "macho" thing can be difficult.  People want to simply be respected, and men can feel pressure to "be a man!"  They can say that it does not matter, but I think that they all feel the pressure, challenge to some degree.  It does not mean one should conform, but one has to make a decision about whether it is worth it to make a stand, ignore it, fake it, etc.

It may be difficult for the ladies to understand this and see where it is coming from.  What I find interesting is that it rarely comes from the ladies; it usually comes from other men!

I very well understand the pressure Jim. It is such a stupid and unwanted thing for me caused my othyer men who are insecure about themselves I suppose. But I must add it not always come from men ..It comes from vile women who can't stand up for themselves ( like my mom )

Imagine such a vile woman who simply affrims and accepts the man who has power ? and neglects the other one ! Self serving woman who will let a man fight her battle ( even if that man is only a child ) for her own SELFISH motives . Women who think men have everything and should always be the provider and who can see themselves as only pitiable dependants !!! They need no pity they need to own responsibility. Imagine a mother who thinks the natural power hierachy in a house is Dad, then son then herself ??? Many such women can only see themselves as the object of desire !

Imagine a family where the object of desire the petted and pampered one is the mother ( cos she can only see herself as the vistim and pitiable ) and not the child !!! They make men question their masculinity ! They turn a man agains't another man ( child against father ) or father against child for their own SELFISH sake !

Imagine a boy growing up doing everything to get the attention of the mother, and she would rather not give it cos in her own mind she would get herself in trouble and there is no benefit cos the 'knight in shining armour' is not that child but the provider or her husband ?

I can remember having my masculinity being challenged because I said that I did not like to hunt and felt sorry for the animals.  On another occasion, it was because I did not know much about football.  Maybe that is one thing that is relaxing about the ladies: that nonsense really stops and the emotional side is more accepted.  In many ways, I am envious of the ladies for having this.

But, with your father, remember that it is simply a tactic for control or power or a way to put you down.  I have found that the ones who make the biggest issue about being "masculine" usually have the opposite feelings themselves.

My masculinity has been challenged when I was rediculed in front of girls my age by my dad plus similar such occasions where I couldnt win. But at this point I would also ask.. MOM WHERE WERE YOU ?
What did she do to reaffirm that I was a man ? Where was her role as a provider ?  She dumped me for that guy in shining armour ! Personally in my family I think dad had to play that superhuman role becvause he didnt get any input from her.



I would put the blame on both !


About my dad I am sure he has questioned his masculinity aswell. Imagine living with a woman who is so selfish ? I am sure that my dad ( for all the vile things he has done to me ) deserved more than my mom. After I know the amount of 'affection' she poured on me   He wouldnt have got much either

[Tokyojim]

Of course, I cannot do a diagnosis over the email, but please look up the symptoms for "Dependent Personality Disorder."  Your mother may fit.  Plug that exact term into a search engine and look for the DSM-IV definition.

[mrt]

Spirit,
I can understand your frustration with your parents. I haven't spoken to mine in over 2 years because I finally realized they weren't going to change and they weren't listening to me. I kept stating that I didn't want to be attacked and they never got it. I beat my head against a proverbial brick wall for decades before I finally got it. I had to cut them off. I'm still dealing with this but I'm learning about who I am and that I don't need their disapproval and I'm learning that I don't even need their approval to function.

It's okay to be angry at your mother. No judges here. She wasn't there for you and it sounds like she will never be. You didn't chose them as parents. But you can chose NOT to let them poison you. You can grow without them if necessary. They got you to this point. The rest is up to you.

Jim & Spirit,
If it makes you guys feel any better. I went to Texas stadium one time to pick up some office equipment with my boss who's nephew ran the place. I was afraid to admit it but I wasn't sure if it was a football or baseball stadium!    I know nothing of football, baseball, or any kind of sport. I think it is the biggest waste of money to pay these people to play games.

 I am not alone as my father, father-in-law, brother-in-law and lots of other guys I know feel the same way. As far as hunting. I went as a youngster with my dad trying to bond with him. I hated it. It was too cold, too boring. I killed a bird once and felt extreme guilt for killing an innocent animal. None of the guys that used to hunt have been in years. Why hunt when we have a three grocery stores a mile down the road?? I have a hunting gun somewhere, but I couldn't tell you where it is or who even has it. I know lots of guys that don't like to hunt either. The ones that do hunt are made fun of behind their backs, because they leave their wives and family and waste too much time and money on this pseudo-macho sport. I even know a women who gets the first deer kill almost every year. Go figure.

 Don't even bring up fishing. I think that is boring too. I've tried it - but I wouldn't eat a fish that came from this area or most areas anyway. My brother ate one that came from this area once and went into anaphylatic(spelling ??) shock and blew up like a balloon. I thought he was going to burst.
I know a lot of women who are into sports bigger than a lot of guys I know. The are fanatics. It's kind of funny.

My father-in-law is a big masculine, burly guy who keeps his house, yard, vehicles, etc immaculant. He even painted his garage and the garage floor!, He cooks, likes to shop, etc and nobody questions his masculinity.  It's about being yourself and not caring what others think. He doesn't try to be anything that he isn't.  

Why bow to pressure from others? People will respect you if are not toxic and are a decent human being treating them the way you want to be treated. Thats what matters to others.

[Tokyojim]

MrTraced,

You didn't know about football when you were in TEXAS?   You are lucky to be alive!

I am just joking, but I did work around Texans when I lived in the Alaska bush.  What was interesting was the "toughest" one I ran across who was in charge of many people, was about 6'4" with a big beard and very deep voice.  He had two passions: Cooking and sewing!

I have just run across a number of males who press for certain behaviors related to "masculinity."  When I was younger, I either got intimidated or angry.  One macho Texan actually said, "You probably don't know anything about the ABC football team, do you?" in a condescending tone.  I replied, "Oh, they are the ones with the colorful blue uniforms, aren't they?"  He left me alone after that.

[Karin]

I want to thank you guys so much for your insights and for confirming to me what I thought could have gone on in my ex husbands mind. (He never really let me in and I could only guess what was going on).  

Your description of your parents Spirit is close to how his parents were/are. His father was always a super-N but his mother I blame for the most damage because she had a choice. She sacrificed her four children for her own selfishness in the same way that you so perfectly describe. As vile as Ns are, she I consider to be the vilest because she could have tempered her husbands behaviour, instead she compounded it.

I admire so much men like you who have the courage to face reality, something that my husband couldn’t do. I don’t know why he couldn’t take that step towards healing, I told him a million times that I was there to support him (without the matyrdom - I stood up for myself and our kids when I had to) and felt his anger/sadness and didn’t take personally his venting onto me, until the last straw of his infidelities. I know that he related me with his mother somehow but to me it would have been such an easy first step to rid himself of all that garbage they laid on him. Instead, he chose to keep it. He wanted to remain the hurt child. Why? Any ideas?

Karin

[Anonymous]

Hi MrT and Jim,

I think in general the issue of questioning masculinity arises ( at a social / cultural level ) because men usually don't actually make being a man look very attractive ( the glamour usually is restricted to certain pseado macho males things alone ) This is where I admire what the feminists have done to women ! Women have somehow manged not to have much gender insecurity.. probably because the general 'female' norm gives broader acceptance and is made to look appealing !

Men need to fight for more flexibility !

On the other hand what I can't stand is the double standard of some women ! These women 'use' feminism as a trump card ! They need the feminist cushion not to get criticised i suppose !  being religious, being a femist etc for them is like relieving themselves of responsibility.. the 'moral right' to give themselves the luxury or being seen only as a victim or as a recipient ' cos they are eternally being victimised ' These women need to give men a break ! or men need to fight and stand up for themselves ( shredding that ' real men don't fight women ' clause )

About games.. I love football ( read soccer ) On the other hand I do love art, and could easily cry in a cinema getting all sensitive. Hey I don't care what the guy sitting next to me thinks ! I can't stand auto talk and guys talking of sex all the time.. it really drives me wild ! In all I think I am doing fine when it comes to gender roles. Culture and peer pressure do give us men a tough time but I suppose we seem to be fairing well in that regards.

Your description of your parents Spirit is close to how his parents were/are. His father was always a super-N but his mother I blame for the most damage because she had a choice. She sacrificed her four children for her own selfishness in the same way that you so perfectly describe. As vile as Ns are, she I consider to be the vilest because she could have tempered her husbands behaviour, instead she compounded it.

Thank you very very much for your input Karin. It was really nice to get input from a woman who has had to put up with a guy with similar background as mine . It must have been hard for you and I do appreciate your concern for yourself and your kid by doing the right thing of chosing to live separated. Abuse is usually so easy to spot but neglect is so hard sometimes. That too when it comes from a woman ( they are usually more subtle than men ) it is even harder . Believe me it has taken me 28 years.. and still I sometimes don't believe myself. My thoughts are with your ex husbands here aswell becuase I know it is very very very very hard to come to terms with reality !

I know that he related me with his mother somehow but to me it would have been such an easy first step to rid himself of all that garbage they laid on him. Instead, he chose to keep it. He wanted to remain the hurt child. Why? Any ideas?

Karin

Mom. she represented women from day one. Reality is she is empty. What did she reflect in her eyes when she saw me ? fear panic and avoidance. In otherwords the first reflection or 'greeting' I got when I entered planet earth.. was 'hi you are frightening, panicky and need to be avoided " It gets imprinted ! plus that slide remark" i do love you" and the kid is taken he/she tries playing hero to mom !!! He/she sacrifices him/herself for her sake.. not to be like his/her menacing dad..to win her love and affection.. and he/she even gets rewarded for being "quiet and not troublesome like noisy self boasting dad"

For a girl child... she rejects whatever it consideres is menacing in her dad I suppose ( thankfully it doesnt invove her gender ).. but for a guy he even rejects being a man to win his mom's love.. he questions his masculinity cos he can't win a woman PLUS he is losing out to another man !!!!!( in a battle that was fought for the sake of that Bitch..whom he/she sadly never realises shall never be won )

The girl child who replaces mom, inaway 'fits in' as she is seen mature beyond age and a great caregiver.. mother theresa style ! Darn socity even rewards it !!
But for a guy who replaces mom, haha sissy ! the redicules drives him back to being the hurt child I suppose... and he leave the caregiving to a woman ! he instead of feeling like a mom feels shy about it and hence looks elsewhere for a 'mom' I suppose ! the hurt child

I am not sure of the links in this page but I think psychoanalysis explain these.  ( My view above is very laypersons view and involves analysis of myself.. which could be very inacurate ) But hey.. I feel blurting out and sharing certain intimate things about myself.. no point holding on to toxic shame. !

[Anonymous]

I really appreciate your 'blurting out' Guest (I presume that's you, Spirit) because I do understand how terribly hard and complicated this is for you (and my ex). It was nice of you to include my ex in your thoughts, because I still do feel incredibly sorry for him but know that I also can't do a thing to help and I must look after my own 'spirit' that he was destroying.

My ex was definitely trying to be the hero for his mother's love, he was the good little boy and yes, I can see how his father would have tried to 'toughen' him up. So when he did behave 'tough' he overdid it and ended up in big trouble. (As an 8-9 year old he got in with a gang and derailed a train). That would have gone down like a lead balloon with his Mum I suspect; being hauled in front of the court and her mothering abilities questioned.

I can see why he was the way he was. His mother neglected him and he in turn has neglected his children. "Your Dad loves you, you know" is all he could manage with ours. It's a shame that he couldn't break the cycle.

I did feel for a time that he wasn't 'a man', not that he was gay, but that he lacked certain qualities that I thought he should've had as a family man. Like he was not overly protective of me and the kids. It was me that would investigate strange noises at night. He was stronger than me but he still willingly let me or even preferred that I protect him.
Talk about complicated gender roles!
Anyway, I just wanted hear your thoughts to see if mine were somehow on the right track.
Thanks again,
Karin.

[Spirit]

It was nice of you to include my ex in your thoughts, because I still do feel incredibly sorry for him but know that I also can't do a thing to help and I must look after my own 'spirit' that he was destroying.

In fact it is magnanimous of you to think of him. If he did to his kids what his mom did to  him, they hey he deserves nothing more than what his mom expects. My imcluding him in my thoughts was part of me forgiving the myself ( in him ) by owning responsibility.

My ex was definitely trying to be the hero for his mother's love, he was the good little boy and yes, I can see how his father would have tried to 'toughen' him up. So when he did behave 'tough' he overdid it and ended up in big trouble. (As an 8-9 year old he got in with a gang and derailed a train). That would have gone down like a lead balloon with his Mum I suspect; being hauled in front of the court and her mothering abilities questioned.

Looking by it I do see similarity with nmy case. But I feel that his dad atleast did his role right. For me it was a bit different. My dad was also like me ( and your ex ) I think.. who was craving for love and attention. He was a begging and crawling for me to show love to him.. never took the initiative himself. I once hit a kid in school.. even though I was timid otherwise. My dad almost celebrated it and had the teachers complained, he would have encouraged me to fight more. That perhaps was his way of showing that he was tough !! trying to prove things through me He would use it as an oportunity to humiliate my mom.. it is as if he had hit someone and gone tough himself ! Even when I was timid he and mom would profoundly lie to me " you are brave " " you are tough " " you are naughty.. you are like me " etc etc.... perhaps it is the sweet lies he wanted to hear about himself I think !

Therefor in a way I controlled myself in all ways by not showing those agressive impulses too ( in order to take care of my dad too ) and not just my mom !!                

I can see why he was the way he was. His mother neglected him and he in turn has neglected his children. "Your Dad loves you, you know" is all he could manage with ours. It's a shame that he couldn't break the cycle.

It is a shame for him indeed, but Karin please do understand  it is NOT your fault ! you don't have to feel guilty about it. He has to take responsibility for himself, and all the significant other can do is offer help and understanding ( without being selfish and critical ) and you certainly have done your best. You have often asked him to get therapy and you definitely do seem to have an understanding nature. You did your best and you certainly can feel proud of yourself !

I did feel for a time that he wasn't 'a man', not that he was gay, but that he lacked certain qualities that I thought he should've had as a family man. Like he was not overly protective of me and the kids. It was me that would investigate strange noises at night. He was stronger than me but he still willingly let me or even preferred that I protect him.
Talk about complicated gender roles!

I must admit that is what many women feel about me. women who are unlike my mom. I think I am protective infact very protecting when it comes to crisis....thats perhaps I have always lived in crisis and are more comfortable with it. An earthquake, or a powercut ? I kinda feel at ease as if the world has come to my level. But I do understand what you mean. I usually let the woman take the initiative in day to day life, and in fact as you put it, prefer the woman to take the initiative. Some how I find it natural, contrary to how the world thinks. That is perhaps I am used to pleasing others feelings and that is 'love' and natural order for me. But the problem nowadays-  when I started doing research is that the conflict widens. My intellects confronts my feelings. When I expect a woman to protect me, my heart says 'yes' and I feel lovely , but my intellect intervenes and says 'no.. you are merely reenacting your past traumas of being voiceless.. wake up and fight '
And imagine when I take an initiative for myself  ie. getting back to therapy.. my intellect says 'yes.. go on you need to break the chain' while the heart says 'no.. you are torturing yourself..what is the point of breaking the chain to take on a lifestyle that is contrary to your feelings'

the jekyl and Hyde scenario. It depends on who has power when.. it is like trying to walk in two directions just because I got two legs.. finally I end up spending too much energy and gets exhausted.. but the result I end up nowhere.. and neither my head nor my heart is satisfied ! But I won't lose my spirit !

Keeping strong.. spirit

ps. Sorry sometimes I might be confusing you by using words in inappropriate context. I am a Srilankan ( living in UK though ) and my command of English language is reasonable but by no means sufficient to express complex thoughts and feelings