A few observations about N's

[wiltay]

This board has helped explain a lot of things that before were only a mystery to me.  I've realized recently that someone I've known for almost 30 years is a 1st degree N (is there such a thing as a degree of N??), which explains his behavior in a way that finally makes sense.  What makes him such a good study is that he has no guile (not to his credit, he just never learned the game!) and so he is totally 'out there' in all his outrageous glory that he demonstrates the essence of what an N is all about.   Basically,  an N is a three year old who believes winning is a matter of life and death.  I've played volleyball with this guy for years.  He's close to 70, in very good shape (better than most 40 year olds), an avid hike leader, skier, an ex-Marine, a complete control freak (unfortunately he's been the leader of this activity for many years, (this is within a much larger group) and the only reason his behavior is tolerated as much as it is), a cursing rage-aholic, fault-finding, highly critical of everyone except himself, etc etc.... you all know the drill. 

    So basically he is a huge raging baby when things don't go the way he wants them to. (I believe this is the very essence of an N, whether they are open with the rage or not. Some don't get mad, they get even).  What he reveals so graphically is how his entire sense of self-esteem is TOTALLY dependent on winning, on prevailing, on being first.  It's really every bit as essential as oxygen to him.  Like losing, being second not first,  is death itself.  Imagine that 2-3 year old having a temper tantrum when things don't go his way.  No difference.  It's the END OF WORLD to be on a losing team.   
     
    We roll our eyes, we laugh at him, we tell him to knock it off,  we tell him it's only a game, we lecture him about swearing in public, but he has no shame whatsoever about his childish behavior.  He also has utterly no scruples about HOW he wins.  When he serves he picks on the weakest player until we ORDER him to stop. (This is social, not competitive volleyball).  One time  I had a back injury which he knew about I and couldn't bend over very far.  He shamelessly exploited my injury the entire game and felt GOOD about it!  Just like a 3 year old would.  Completely amoral,  no sense of right and wrong.  And here's the thing--it was truly nothing personal (he is NOT a malicious person, however much of a jerk he is) and he saw nothing pathetic about winning by exploiting a cripple in order to keep his self-esteem remained intact.  So when I try to make sense of an N I think of a very insecure 3 year old who is totally DRIVEN to win at any cost.  Winning is really not optional for an N, it's compulsive,  a matter of psychological survival.  No thanks!!  Makes me feel lucky I only have the problems I have. 

What brought this to mind was Ami's conversation with her M where her M seemed to capitulate.   In my thinking, it was only a strategic retreat because N's are constitutionally incapable of admitting defeat, ever.  But Ami's strong stand was the only reason for any retreat at all.  I was furious with E (I'll call him) and I paid him back by picking on him with MY serve and making him boil with humiliation as he missed them one after another.  I felt a little sadistic but he got the message and he never serves to me anymore.   The funny thing, when there is nothing at stake (to him) he is a very personable, likable guy.   But can you imagine living with him?  I would shoot myself first.
Bill

[Poppy Seed]

The funny thing, when there is nothing at stake (to him) he is a very personable, likable guy.

This is my N family.  They are extremely popular.  My T says that being next to an N is a great place to be for some.  Kinda like being next to a celebrity or the most popular kids in school.  And the little punishments come to those who don't play along.  Mine don't care about winning, but they sure care about being right and about maintaining the reputation that they are amazingly talented and good.

Thoughts......

Poppy

[Ami]

I paid him back by picking on him with MY serve and making him boil with humiliation as he missed them one after another.  I felt a little sadistic but he got the message and he never serves to me anymore. 



Dear Bill,
   The quote   ( above) cracked me up. I have a million stories about my M that are funny(if you are in the right mood).
  Bill, it is so hard when your M is old and you want so much to make some sort of a peace.I am quite sure that she backed down as a temporary measure.
  I had the momentary advantage b/c I was so "strong".Her sister  and my father  value me so she looks bad.They are probably asking her,"You have a lovely D-- WHAT is wrong with YOU?" THAT is a question that an N does not like.
   Bill, the pain of an N mother is the gift that keeps on "giving".There is so much pain. You ask yourself, "Can I make it better?, Can I do anything? Can I make peace with her?"
  The 'unfinished " nature of it is what hurts so much.
   It is a continual sore. It oozes, bleeds,but never heals.
   It  simply never heals.
   Thanks for your thread,Bill                                                              Love    Ami.
   

[sun blue]

Poppy:

I agree with you completely.  My N situation is similar to yours.  But I would say that with the Ns in my family, being right equates to winning.  So if everyone, and I mean EVERYONE, does not acknowledge they are right, then they consider it a "loss" and, of course, that is just not tolerated.  In addition to this extreme need to be right is the inherent need to control everything and everyone. 

This need to be right and to "win" controls their whole life.  Like with your situation, the Ns in my family are very personable and pleasant when in front of strangers or people they want to impress.  Of course, with their own family members, it is a completely different story. 

They do act like 3 year olds.  But their tantrums can come in all forms.  Sometimes it's in rage or obnoxious social behavior like the volleyball player described above.  At other times, the trantrums come in the form of emotional punishment, neglect and the cold shoulder treatment.  It could be in the form of total withdrawal and disinterest.  But it all stems from the same thing-----their need to always, always, always win.  In my family, "winning" means being acknowledged as being superior to everyone, having the only opinion that counts and always being right.  And, just like a 3 year old, they are governed by a "look at me, look at me" mentality.  They have to be the center of attention at all times.

In my own family, I can now see all this clearly.  My Nmom and Nsister began their most vicious behavior when my brother became engaged.  Now I realize that it was because neither could tolerate not being the most important person in my brother's life.  Now that he was engaged he had to share his life with his fiance and her family.  There was another mother to consider!  Imagine that.....having to think of somebody else besides the Nmom, the Queen Mother!  And when my brother and his wife choose one of her sister's as godparent of their child and not my (sick) Nsister, well that was just not tolerated.  That was considered a "loss"...How dare anybody NOT choose the perfect one!  That is why Ns really are incapable of being team players or working well with others.  They have to not only be perched on their self-appointed throne, but they need everyone within their sight to bow down to them and acknowledge they are superior.  Obviously, an unrealistic and untenable approach to life.

I would say that poster is very lucky the N in her life is only a social volleyball player....It's one thing to deal with an adult 3-year old once a week for a sporting event, it's another to have to deal with one when they're your parent, sibling, or spouse.

To all the Ns in our lives, GROW UP ALREADY!!! 

[Bella_French]

Dear Bill,

Your post brought a smile to face; thank you! I laughed at the thought of just how idiotic the need to win can be. I mean, honestly, only an N could think winning against someone injured is *really* winning. I've seen N's do the `outshining'  thing with children too, such as having little running races (where the adult N always wins) , or giving them tasks too hard to perform, just to show the child up. The other thing they interpret as `winning' is subjugating those who depend on them, where the dependence is by default (a mother with children) or fostered through isolation and ruining someone's self esteem.

You're right; its all a bit of a joke. That is not winning! But they seem to think it is:)

Thanks for the humor:)

Bella

[wiltay]

Ami, I can't imagine having an N as a parent!  It's a testament to you that you survived and are healing.  "If it doesn't kill you, it will make you stronger."  Your trial by fire has given you a soul you could not have had otherwise.  I believe (I"m virtually certain) that my father's father was a raging N (he died before I was born) and my father struggled greatly with the injury and did not let it defeat him, despite the damage and I think he was an exceptional person despite his faults (and so did others).   Still, as a young father he did not yet have the wisdom to not pass on the 'voicelessness' to me, nor did my mother, who was also injured by someone, far more seriously, I know.

    You are so right, (from other threads) you must not indulge in hate any more than you can help and somehow put an end to the grudges in your heart, however well-earned they are, otherwise the scabs will never form and you will keep bleeding forever. I'm struggling with forgiveness myself, but I don't have a parent to forgive, and I think that must be the ultimate betrayal.  How do you forgive??  I'm still working on that and I have a ways to go, but I think that's the direction I need to go in for peace in my own heart.   Forgiveness to me doesn't mean that their behavior was ok or the least bit acceptable, just that they have no power to anger me anymore.  I'm glad you're in my world Ami, you and the others on this board.  (and I'm thankful for the internet that makes this possible).

Bill

[Ami]

Dear Bill,
  I am just so humbled by what you wrote. Thank you,Bill .                          Love   ,Ami



PS  I never looked at it that way-- having an N mother 'builds a soul that you would not have had". This just makes me cry for some reason. Maybe there was something "special" that came from it. Maybe I really am worthwhile and can feel that---- after all this time.Your post has really given me a gift that I will carry with me  in my heart.
   

[wiltay]

Sun blue, I'm a he, not a she.  BTW, where ARE the males on this board?  I think I am the only one who has posted for a long time.  I may be wrong about that since I don't read the entire board by any means.  I think narcissists come in as many shapes and sizes as children do.  That's where these people get completely stuck for some reason (in the narcissistic stage of early childhood development) and they rarely EVER grow up it seems.  2%? Virtually never.  I wish I was so lucky that the only N in my life was this guy.  He's been the least of my problems.  In fact, I actually respect this guy for his lack of guile, for not trying to pretend to be something else,  for not being a snake in the grass like the other N's I've known. 
Bill

 

[sun blue]

<<<<<Sunblue turning red>>>>

So sorry Wiltay.  I shouldn't have assumed.....Mostly women (I think anyway) post on this board.  Actually, I would love to hear from men who grew up with an Nparent.  I have a brother but he seems to have emerged virtually unscathed while I, on the other hand, have been deeply affected from growing up in an N family. Perhaps it's because men aren't as much into emotions as women tend to me.  A generalization I know but seems to have been the case in my family.

I give you credit for recognizing the N behavior in your fellow team member and seeing it for what it is.  I hope you'll keep sharing your perspective with the board.  We could use the male perspective here

[wiltay]

 Sun blue , having N parents is NOT a perquisite for being seriously victimized by NPD as I can well attest to and neither is posting on this board a test to see who has suffered enough to speak or make a claim.  It's big of you to 'give me credit" for recognizing an N, but that's a discount of my experience and I reject it.  Hopefully we can leave this kind of argument behind right here.
 
           I agree that men don't deal with emotions in quite the same way as women do but I would NOT characterize men as being 'less into them."   Believe me, my emotions are a MAJOR part of my life!  I can say though that I don't seem to have the emotional stamina of most of the women on this board.  I seem to overload far faster and I have to shut down.  It's not a choice.  I don't know how you people do it but I couldn't keep up if I tried.  Maybe that's why few men seem to post.
Bill

[wiltay]

Ami,  It seems to me that people either allow themselves to get beaten down by suffering and pain and become less from it or they develop soul from it and become more than they were.  I know you will overcome the severe deficiencies of your mother and possess a soul that you otherwise would not have.  In fact, you already do.  Am I making any sense??  It's late, my brain is getting tired and mushy and I better quit before it gets worse.
Love, Bill

[Hopalong]

Hi Bill,
The testosterone quotient here is boosted whenever Mud or James shows up.
The rest of the time, they're doing manly things like splitting wood or karate.

We treasure our men, though they do neglect us.

 

Hops

[Poppy Seed]

Hi Bill,
The testosterone quotient here is boosted whenever Mud or James shows up.
The rest of the time, they're doing manly things like splitting wood or karate.

We treasure our men, though they do neglect us.

 

Hops

I tell you what - - somedays I would rather be a guy.  Trying to figure out all this stuff is overwhelming!!  I can bearly keep up.  Being on this board.....it is a hard to remember everyones stories and where they are in the story.  And then there is the gulf of my own deficiency.  Sometimes I would rather be out splitting wood or karate chopping! 
Poppy

[wiltay]

Hops and Poppy,  Mud and James huh? I've never even heard of these guys!  It's true, I get a little frustrated by the steady, intense emotional outpouring on this board, with very little (apparent) attention to problem solving.  If this were a male-dominated group this would be in exact reverse.  No thanks!  I'd be far more frustrated with that.

     What makes the situation with E so interesting to me is that after being a victim of N's throughout my adult life (it's like I have a powerful N-magnet strapped onto my back and they glop onto me like flies to honey), constantly getting enmeshed with them, exploited by them, sabotaged, used and abused,  I've finally learned something.  I have discovered that I no longer let E be toxic to me.  I know how to be around him and not get hooked or poisoned because I finally know what I'm dealing with:  an extremely insecure 3 year old who HAS to have his own way at any cost to himself or others and who is not in control of the process at all.  A few things E has taught me (1) don't waste energy trying to reason with him because 3 year olds haven't learned how to reason yet, (2) don't try to shame him (it's meaningless, he has none), (3) don't lecture him about his behavior in front of everybody because he just eats up the attention like it was a Hershey bar, (4) if he reaches his hand out in friendship politely and firmly decline it because he hasn't a clue about friendship and he will use you up to your last drop of blood, (5) don't question his gargantuan sense of entitlement because he will fight you to the death with pick axes and shovels before he gives up an ounce of it up, (6) if he starts getting upset about losing let him move immediately to the winning side with your blessing and prayers.   Last but not least, (7)don't EVER expect him to grow up or change in the slightest way because 65 years ago an entire truckload of concrete got dumped on his head and he hasn't been able to move a muscle since.
    I think these rules can be applied to any N because they are all freeze-dried 3 year olds in adult bodies.  Oops, I left out one ( If you see an N coming, RUN.  The best cure for N is avoidance.  Unfortunately, all too  often that's not possible.  No, one more, especially for me (9)  SEE THE N COMING.  Does anyone have a number 10?

Bill

[Ami]

N's would be very upset that you told their whole life history in one short paragraph .        Love    Ami