The thing that might divide us

[Poppy Seed]

My H and I are in a strange place.  It is a place that is making me increasingly wary.  It all comes back to his family. 

His N family wraps me in knots.  I have no friends there and don't really want a relationship with them anymore.  He loves them and is conflicted between his wonderful life with them, and his honest and harder life with me.  I have never pressured him to leave them.  I have put my own needs aside time and time again to try and reconcile with them.  He is the one who voluntarily told them to get out of our lives.  But now, they send email to him (not me) and phone him at work trying to rebuild their relationships.  I am never mentioned.  He is enticed by their words.  He wants to go back but knows that he will be "sucked back into the cyborg" as he puts it.  He is coming out of his own denial about his fam and lots of other things -- basically learning to have feelings and recognize them.  Most of the time he appears amiable and easy and guileless and gentle.  But when he finds his feelings with regards to his family, it isn't usually a good thing for me.  BIG RESENTMENT directed surprisingly at me.  He tells me how frustrated he is by them but then all this resentment at me comes out.   He tells me he is not leaving his family for me.  But he tells our T that he is leaving his family to prove to me how important I am to him.  I know that if he makes this choice for me that it WILL come back to bite me. 

I know that I can't handle the literal force of his family.  They sink my ship.  But he is part of them -- golden child-- and if he complies, he will regain his golden status.  I, on the other hand, am the sludge of the lake and will remain so.  He doesn't recognize generally when and how they hurt me.  So, he is not a reliable defense.  My only choice is to stay away.  But he is now considering going back.  The thought of taking him from his family makes me literally sick.  I don't want to be that person.

I am afraid. I am afraid he will choose not to go back and then after his awakening to his feelings is complete, he will hate me.

I am also worried about why he is clinging so hard to me.  I think he knows that his family doesn't have what he really wants.  At least somewhere in his brain.  But, I see him cling to me,  SOMETIMES, out of co dependence and fear of being alone.

The other day he said (in a tone that he was really proud of his progress) that he was finally starting to consider that my personality traits might actually be good.  And that he thinks they might actually be great.  Ouch!  I am kinda left speechless........and then wondering why I married someone who didn't think I was fabulous to begin with.  ( I think this is one dynamic which makes it hard for me let my light shine.  I am so afraid of the subtle disapproval and punishment that I have lived with.)

Sometimes I wonder if I am working for something that isn't what I think it is.  Most of the time I think it is a good pursuit and I am happy with our progress.  But these little underlying currents make me very uneasy.

He is not that defensive of me when their actions are obvious.  This really bothers me.  It doesn't seem right.  I need to push it.  I need to educate him.  I need to ask for it time and time again.  And he dutifully does what I ask.  But it doesn't come naturally from him.  Very disconcerting.

How often I wish for a marriage where I didn't have to worry about loyalty.  Where I didn't have to ask for it, get what I find out later is a counterfeit, and then blamed for the fallout.

Poppy

[Iphi]

This is a tough journey Poppy and I don't have any insights, but just general encouragement and support.  Sometimes it is "easier" though not accurate or right to direct resentment and anger on to a safe person instead of in the appropriate direction, I think.  Imo my sister and I directed a lot of anger and general stuff at each other that actually should have gone toward our parents, but it was too fraught and dangerous to actually direct it there on to our parents.  That is what reading about your H reminds me of.  All we can do, as far as I have figured out, is continue to increase our awareness of what we are feeling and doing with our feelings and continue to increase our integrity in owning what is ours and not throwing it in the wrong direction to compound our errors.  Uhhh work in progress. 

[Ami]

Dear Poppy,
  It sounds really, really hard. I am so sorry.((((((((((((Poppy)))))))))))))))))))          Love   Ami



P.S.  I wish I had some "wisdom" to add but I can just say that I have had in law problems and it is really hard.

[Bella_French]

Dear Poppyseed,

Hugs; that is so frustrating, I know (really!)

Poppyseed, how does your husband treat you in his parent's company? Do you feel that he demonstrates respect for you at all times, or does he subtlety participate in undermining you when they are around?

Love and hugs

X Bella






















 

[Poppy Seed]

Bella,

I disappear when they are around.  He goes right into his role in the family--compliant, unaware, and taking care of all their feelings.  It is a state of obliviousness from my point of view.  For most of our married life, when I say something about how they treat me, he says very little and does a few things to appease me and then secretly blames me for the problem.  I think this is his own N tendancies.  Only he doesn't talk....at all about his feelings.  So I never know.  I can just feel the energy of blaming and resentment in the air and I go around trying anything to make it better.  All the while, he looks so saintly.  It is a crazymaker.

Now that he know about Narc. he is completely thrown off.  When his mother and father enter, he knows that he doesn't want to play the game but fear and denial are still such a part of him that he doesn't know what else to do.

It is a long wait for me, I am afraid.  Waiting for him to decide which team he is playing for.

Even today, we were IMing about it.  His brother has CF and his wife is pregnant with artificially inseminated twins.  It is a miracle that they can have a family.  CF patients can't usually do this.  And we are so excited -- but they have been particularly hurtful in their behavior towards me.  They are currently ignoring me and telling my H that they'll love him when he comes to his senses. The baby shower is Sat.  He hasn't talked to his family in months and I don't know what to do.  Should I go, send a gift, or forget the whole thing.  He simply doesn't know what he wants to do.  I feel the battle in him to stay with me or go with them and loose me.  It is heart wrenching for me.  Because I don't know how to orient myself to my H or to his family.  If he wanted to have a relationship with them on a limited basis, I could orient to that.  If he wanted no contact, I could happily orient to that as well.  But right now, I feel him try to decide if I am the enemy or if they are.

Poppy

[Poppy Seed]

This is a tough journey Poppy and I don't have any insights, but just general encouragement and support.  Sometimes it is "easier" though not accurate or right to direct resentment and anger on to a safe person instead of in the appropriate direction, I think.  Imo my sister and I directed a lot of anger and general stuff at each other that actually should have gone toward our parents, but it was too fraught and dangerous to actually direct it there on to our parents.  That is what reading about your H reminds me of.  All we can do, as far as I have figured out, is continue to increase our awareness of what we are feeling and doing with our feelings and continue to increase our integrity in owning what is ours and not throwing it in the wrong direction to compound our errors.  Uhhh work in progress. 

Iphi,

thanks.  Your post calms me a bit.....if it is true.  I actually think that his resentment comes from his N tendancies.  And he does too.  Maybe as he becomes more aware, he won't need to defend them.  I think when I discuss their failings, he feels that he is part of them and so I am criticizing him.  He is still profoundly enmeshed. 

Ami,

Thanks for the hugs.

[Bella_French]

Bella,

I disappear when they are around.  He goes right into his role in the family--compliant, unaware, and taking care of all their feelings.  It is a state of obliviousness from my point of view.  For most of our married life, when I say something about how they treat me, he says very little and does a few things to appease me and then secretly blames me for the problem.  I think this is his own N tendancies.  Only he doesn't talk....at all about his feelings.  So I never know.  I can just feel the energy of blaming and resentment in the air and I go around trying anything to make it better.  All the while, he looks so saintly.  It is a crazymaker.

Now that he know about Narc. he is completely thrown off.  When his mother and father enter, he knows that he doesn't want to play the game but fear and denial are still such a part of him that he doesn't know what else to do.

It is a long wait for me, I am afraid.  Waiting for him to decide which team he is playing for.

Even today, we were IMing about it.  His brother has CF and his wife is pregnant with artificially inseminated twins.  It is a miracle that they can have a family.  CF patients can't usually do this.  And we are so excited -- but they have been particularly hurtful in their behavior towards me.  They are currently ignoring me and telling my H that they'll love him when he comes to his senses. The baby shower is Sat.  He hasn't talked to his family in months and I don't know what to do.  Should I go, send a gift, or forget the whole thing.  He simply doesn't know what he wants to do.  I feel the battle in him to stay with me or go with them and loose me.  It is heart wrenching for me.  Because I don't know how to orient myself to my H or to his family.  If he wanted to have a relationship with them on a limited basis, I could orient to that.  If he wanted no contact, I could happily orient to that as well.  But right now, I feel him try to decide if I am the enemy or if they are.

Poppy

Dear Pops,

I would suggest that you keep going to the family functions, with the goal of getting him to see how he's treating you in the company of N's. This sounds like where the two of you are stuck; with his lack of awareness.

I suggest that you pay attention to specific behaviors which hurt you and undermine your relationships, and call him on each and every one of them. He might resist seeing it at first, but he sounds smart enough to get it. Just keep telling him and be very specific. Also, think up how you'd like him to behave instead, and share that with him. Men really appreciate instructions that they can act on, much more than hearing vague assertions and bad feelings .

If you stop being around his family, Pops, you'll never get to the point where your husband protects you, and you will not trust your Husband, ever. He needs to firstly see how he's harming you, and then he has to protect you from harm. It doesn't really matter if you're the one who shows him how to do this; what matters is that he does it.

Poppyseed, i have tried this first hand, and as scarey as it was, it was extremely effective. Once we'd got past his denial, and my partner was consistently protecting me, the N's put him in a ridiculous `its her or us' kind of situation and made him choose. He chose me, of course, just like your husband will choose you. You're right; your husband's family can't meet his needs, but you can and do.

I realy hope that some of this proves helpful Poppyseed.

X Bella

[Poppy Seed]

Bella,

Does the fact that I have done what you suggest consistently and patiently for the last 7 years make any difference?  Even today, I recounted a couple of painful experiences and asked him if he felt the remotest feeling of defense.  He said that if it had come from a neighbor, that yes, he would jump to defend me.  With regards to his families behavior, he sees intellectually that maybe it is not the best but that he doesn't feel anything at all.  He then said that he struggles with the feeling that he and his family are a bit superior.  And though they don't say it out loud, they do have the right to judge people as being less than them.  That traditionally has meant me.  He says that for most of our married life, he has thought of me as lesser.  Now he says it is different, but that he can't trust himself not to betray me.  He is pretty sure he will.

What do I do with that?  I am tired.  This is deal breaker stuff for me.  It hurts too much and I know I am not strong enough to go up against his family alone again.  I have tried over and over again this year and now I am road kill.  Talking to him about it and trying to illustrate it just doesn't seem to make a dent.  It is in his control and after so many years......wow.  I just don't know how patient I should be.

Sorry, Bella.  I guess I am kinda whining here.  It is just such a long and fruitless battle and I can't see how we can continue unless something changes.  He is very methodical to the point of avoiding the issue.  He doesn't face things the way I do....or anyway for that matter until he is completely backed into a corner and has to choose.  Who wants love that you have to extract and force into being?  That is how this feels.

[Ami]

Dear Poppy,
  One  thing that I learned after many ,many humiliating visits with my  in laws is that I was really free to chose IF I went to visit or not.
   I learned it after getting so sick that I COULD not visit. Then,I learned that I did not HAVE to get sick in order to say "No".
It hit me that"I could have said,"No'". ANYTIME  along the way.
  I am just saying that you always have the power of ."No" and the power of choice in any situation with your  in laws.
   Your situation sounds very,very heartbreaking--- all the way around. I am so sorry.   Love   Ami
 (((((((((((((((((((((Poppy)))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
 

[Bella_French]

Bella,

Does the fact that I have done what you suggest consistently and patiently for the last 7 years make any difference?  Even today, I recounted a couple of painful experiences and asked him if he felt the remotest feeling of defense.  He said that if it had come from a neighbor, that yes, he would jump to defend me.  With regards to his families behavior, he sees intellectually that maybe it is not the best but that he doesn't feel anything at all.  He then said that he struggles with the feeling that he and his family are a bit superior.  And though they don't say it out loud, they do have the right to judge people as being less than them.  That traditionally has meant me.  He says that for most of our married life, he has thought of me as lesser.  Now he says it is different, but that he can't trust himself not to betray me.  He is pretty sure he will.

What do I do with that?  I am tired.  This is deal breaker stuff for me.  It hurts too much and I know I am not strong enough to go up against his family alone again.  I have tried over and over again this year and now I am road kill.  Talking to him about it and trying to illustrate it just doesn't seem to make a dent.  It is in his control and after so many years......wow.  I just don't know how patient I should be.

Sorry, Bella.  I guess I am kinda whining here.  It is just such a long and fruitless battle and I can't see how we can continue unless something changes.  He is very methodical to the point of avoiding the issue.  He doesn't face things the way I do....or anyway for that matter until he is completely backed into a corner and has to choose.  Who wants love that you have to extract and force into being?  That is how this feels.

Dear, Poppyseed, no need to say sorry; thats not whining! Your feelings are totally legitimate, and your husband is clearly allowing you be harmed by his N- family; he's even part of it.  I guess I don't have anything else concrete to suggest, as you've done everything I tried, and it hasn't worked with him. I cannot imagine the feelings of betrayal and vulnerability you must be experiencing right now, dear Poppyseed. You've been through so much!

Pops, Something I didn't try, but considered,  was just staying away from the N's in his life altogether, and letting him have those relationships alone. I decided against it myself, because I really, really, need a partner now who can protect me, and our relationship, from N-abuse. Its very important to me, after everything I've been through in the past. Before meeting him, I had decided that I didn't want N's close to me anymore,  and I didn't want or need a partner who brought N's close to me and let them abuse me.

That was one reason; the other was that I knew that N's could harm my relationship even if I was never around. That could criticize me, influence his behavior and thinking, and drive a wedge between us, especially if i wasn't around to defend myself.

But like i said, i didn't try it, and it could have bought us some time if we had have needed it.


I'm not sure if any of this helps, but I want you know I think this is pretty terrible behavior on your husband's part IMHO. I really hope it will work out. I totally understand that could feel like a  deal-breaker too. It did for me.

love to you!

X Bella

[Hopalong]

Poppy. So so so hard, where you are right now.
I'm very sorry. I can barely imagine how painful this is.

One thing struck me, was how the sticking point seems to be your wanting him to display protectiveness.

For me, that's a trap. It's an expectation that some men can't fulfill. More importantly, it was telling me something crucial about myself.

What was it that had me repeatedly telling myself, "You can't set your own boundaries, he needs to.
You can't say NO, this is not acceptable for you to _______ or __________ to Ns, he needs to.
You can't choose NO, I will not expose myself to _______, he needs to."

I think what it was, was training...an absorbed belief that it would not be natural or right for me to set boundaries, say No, assert myself,
be confident, certain that I deserve respectful courteous treatment, at all times....that belief set me up to wait for a man to show my value.

What a difference when one simply decides for oneself.

That's not to belittle the great pain you're in. Seeing his weakness. That's really hard.

But his weakness is his weakness. I wonder if it could be more helpful for you to focus on your strength.
It's there. I am sure it is.

You don't have to go up against his family. You could just say, No. I'm done.

love
Hops

[Ami]

Dear Hops(Kahil)
  That is WOWSER advice( for anyone in any situation).                             Love   Ami

[Poppy Seed]

Thanks guys!  For all of your kindness and input.  I feel stronger.

Hops,  Your post made me stop and think.  And I realized how I really had been trying to do this on and off.  Kinda made me feel like not ALL my efforts are fraught with codep and fear.  I can see that it is ok to say I am done.  I say the words, but I don't completely give myself permission to follow-thru with that detachment.

Bella,  Thank you for understanding how much it hurts me. I have tried over the years to let him have his relationship with them on his own.  I have chosen not to attend a this or a that and I have tried to be fine with that.  What happens is exactly what you describe.  They play with his head.  They wedge their way into my boundaries with the children.  They hold all "opting out" actions against me.  They try to put us against one another.   And traditionally, my H sees me as the turncoat.  It hasn't worked and has actually been one of the main reasons why is has gotton so bad.  So many times that he came home and punished me or blamed me for not being "loving and good" in the N family paradigm.  We are now committed to go together or not at all.

I have to hand it to my H.  Last night, we sat on the bed and talked about his lack of empathy and his blame of me.  The onion of his blindness is peeling away.  Last night, he lost a layer or two.  He sees the feelings that other H's have of defense and loyalty to their wives....even within his own family.....and recognizes that he doesn't have those feelings.  It is puzzling to both of us why those feelings aren't there.  He explored his fear of going against the family system.  It was a hard conversation.  I had to endure the truths about how he felt about me because of the script his family requires him to think.  It is so painful to hear.  But good for him to look straight at it and see how ridiculous and how hurtful it is.  Before, he just thought he was right.

We negotiated a few things.  And I actually said to him that I was done.  I said that it is too hard to try to show him and teach him.  I told him what I needed to feel from him to feel loved and protected and secure.  I told him that he didn't need to go to battle with them to help me feel this way.  This morning, he really doesn't know how he will do it, but that he will try.  He knows he needs to stop avoiding and stop caving and stand on his own with his own feelings -- something his family has never allowed.  They are still trying to push him back in the box and he feels obligated to do what they want.

Well, anyway.  More hard fought progress.  I will continue to practice detachment and saying no.  I will continue to do this in ways that still enable me to feel loving and aware of everyones needs without giving up my non-negitiables.  And I am so surprised that he is letting me do this without punishment.  I feel myself flinch just ready for the hit!  I am also seeing that he is closer to where I need him to be than I had previously thought.  That is taking a minute to sink in.  But I want to trust it.

Thanks for listening.  And helping me know I am not crazy AND see areas I need to improve.

Poppy

[gratitude28]

(((((((((((((((Poppy)))))))))))))

This is a very hard situation and it is hard to give advice for a relationship. It would be great if you could do counseling together - is that an option????

I have one story that kind of fits, I think. My husband has a rough family situation - dad alcoholic - mom - co-dependent. His mom is great, but I can't understand staying with a man like that. She is in a good place now and fully understands all of her choices throughout life, but they are not choices I would make. At any rate, my husband will put his parents above everyhting else at times because of his bad childhood, I believe. When I gave birth to my daughter, his dad was to show up at the exact time I was in labor. My H actually was going to leave me and pick him up at the airport. I was furious. Another time, his mom was visiting and I realized he joked and played and laughed with her in a way he never did with me. We have talked about these things and most are better. There are times still when he does something out of line and I call him on it. To his credit, he admits when he is in the wrong and takes a step back.

What is your husband's view on your immediate family life? What are his goals for your family (outside of his former family life). Besides being committed to you, is he committed to creating a new, healthful family life? Do you have children. How does he want their life to be?

I agree that when you married, you should have wanted your spouse to realize how great you are from the start. It is unfortunate he did not see this sooner. Why, then, did he want to marry you, you might ask? What was he looking for in you then and what does he want in you now?

(((((((((((((Poppy)))))))))

I think you have the makings for a strong relationship if he can see you as a equal.

Please keep posting about this.

Love, Beth

[Poppy Seed]

Hey G28,

Thanks for posting today.  I so appreciate it.

I have one story that kind of fits, I think. My husband has a rough family situation - dad alcoholic - mom - co-dependent. His mom is great, but I can't understand staying with a man like that. She is in a good place now and fully understands all of her choices throughout life, but they are not choices I would make. At any rate, my husband will put his parents above everyhting else at times because of his bad childhood, I believe. When I gave birth to my daughter, his dad was to show up at the exact time I was in labor. My H actually was going to leave me and pick him up at the airport. I was furious. Another time, his mom was visiting and I realized he joked and played and laughed with her in a way he never did with me. We have talked about these things and most are better. There are times still when he does something out of line and I call him on it. To his credit, he admits when he is in the wrong and takes a step back.

Yes.  You are understanding.  We experience many bobbles like the going to airport while you are in labor.  Yes.  It happens on the action front and on the emotional front.  He does what they want.....but he also thinks what they think about me.  It is kind of a double whamy.  Up until the last 3 months, if I corrected him or let him know my feelings or needs, he would call me a trouble maker and selfish.  Not verbally.  Just inside of his mind.

What is your husband's view on your immediate family life? What are his goals for your family (outside of his former family life). Besides being committed to you, is he committed to creating a new, healthful family life? Do you have children. How does he want their life to be?

Well, we split up a year ago and then reconciled.  Since coming home, he has been more commited to our nuclear family than ever before.  He knew he had demons to face and patterns to eliminate but he was, at least, commited.  We have four children.  For the first time in 10 years, I am not parenting alone.  He actually thinks of them and their thoughts and feelings.  He is so involved in their lives now.  And I feel like I can rest. Before, he was there....but not there. Understand???  He has really great plans for our future.  And I like the plan.  I feel happy about the progress we have made.  I  also feel worn out and damaged.  And I feel like I need extra TLC and extra safety so I can heal and trust again.  He is trying to be more trustworthy in many different ways.  And we are battling with our issues because I think we want so badly to conquer and move forward to a more safe and rewarding place.  His addiction is under control and we don't even talk about that pain anymore.  It is being managed and we don't worry about it.  He goes to weekly group and I stay out of his recovery.  NO CARETAKING!    His family is the biggest mountain.  We have struggled with it since the day we married.  I don't think he married ME.  I think he brought me home to join his family....like buying a puppy. If we can get past these road blocks, I think there is a lot of hope.  It just needs to happen fast....for me (he is slow) because it has hurt too much, for too long.

xxoo.  Feels good to let all these feelings out.  Thank you for listening.