Selfishness

[gratitude28]

Co-narcissistic people often fear they will be
thought of as selfish if they act more
assertively. Usually, they learned to think
this way because one or both parents
characterized them as selfish if they did not
accommodate to the parent’s needs. I take
patients’ concerns that they are selfish as an
indication of narcissism in the parents,
because the motivation of selfishness
predominates in the minds of narcissistic
people. It is a major component of their
defensive style, and it is therefore a
motivation they readily attribute to (or
project onto) others.

This is from one of Dr. Alan Rapport's articles I found online. I am struggling now with the fact that I have been overly generous for years and now need to take care of my family and cut back on the gifts and travel. I feel selfish, but what I am doing is taking care of my family.

Do any of you still struggle with the idea of being selfish when you are taking care of yourself or your family?

Love, Beth

[Ami]

Dear Beth,
 . How I struggle with feeling  SELFISH when I take care of myself in big or little ways.
  It must be like "cult" brainwashing.The N mother must have a special button installed in us that says "selfish" .When it is pushed ,we will throw our entire self away just not to be thought of as 'selfish"(that HORRIBLE sin)
   It is very,very ,very deep brainwashing inside us. It really is. This is probably my biggest "hang-up". I feel that taking care of myself is selfish.
  I was trained really,really well. It must be like a dog. Once they get a habit,it STAYS their entire life.
  I let my Poodle have old tee shirts that I had worn when I  went out of the house. A dog trainer  told me that the dog will feel "safe" if they has your scent with them.
  Now, every time I come home, Henrietta has an old shirt that she brings me.
  We are 'engraved" in a way ,with this "training" from our N Mothers.
  We are people (not animals---I think) .So, we can get rid of old ideas. However,it is very painstaking.
  As I force myself to face the "truth" of myself and my life, her 'deathlike  grip  "is loosening. It is important to keep talking about it, just as you are                          Love    Ami

((((((((((((((((((((Beth))))))))))))))))))))))))

[Poppy Seed]

Do any of you still struggle with the idea of being selfish when you are taking care of yourself or your family?

I don't feel selfish when I start to take a caring action for myself or my family, but I do after I feel the pushback from the N's. The guilt, shame, blame, thing.  We can predict it.   This is a primary issue for us.  My H is laid to the ground with guilt if he says that he wants to leave a party early with a stomach ache or not follow every event of every extended family member.  We get pushback for every decision we make big or little that goes in anyway against the expectations of the family. We are now learning not to cave when the "you are selfish" message come flying across the pike.

Thanks for the quote.  I am sharing it with my H.

Pops

[gratitude28]

Poppy,
Here is a link to the article if you would like to read the rest of it. Ami, too. I think it explains well our relationship to parent-Ns.

http://www.alanrappoport.com/Co-Narcissism%20Article.pdf

I made a move I needed to make and feel somewhat relieved. I talked to my mother and told her our finances are off and that I am looking for a job, but have not found one. (She, of course, doesn't understand why you would want to work - regardless of finances). I told her we would not be traveling this year. It shoudl be fine with her - she can have fun gossiping that we are being frugal now and that "poor thing, I just don't know what to do to help." But I made my boundary and I feel relieved.

((((((((((((((Thanks all of you)))))))))))))

Love, Beth

[lighter]

gratitude:

It's so nice when we handle something, understand what the outcome will be then make peace with it, no matter how maddening it is.

I'm glad you're feeling better. 

[gratitude28]

Thanks ((((((((((((((lighter))))))))))))

[tayana]

Beth,

My mother used to tell me frequently, and sometimes still does, that I'm a very selfish person.  She would tell me when I bought something for myself, when I wanted time alone, when I wanted to go out with a friend . . . I was being selfish.

Now, I have a hard time doing anything just for me, and I have a horrible tendency to hoard things, buy things, etc, because I think that makes me feel better.  In the long run it doesn't, and when I do something for myself I feel guilty because I should be doing something with my son, or I should be doing housework, or I should be working, or I should be . . . . . (fill in the blank)

It's something I'm working on, just like I'm trying to learn to relax and have fun again.  I can't seem to do either one anymore.

[Ami]

Dear Tayana,
  We are 'Pavlov's dog.     BLEH(double)                                                        Love ,  Ami

[gratitude28]

Tayana,
This sounds weird, but it takes practice. I started getting a pedicure while overseas - the first time with a group from my husband's work - I had to go. I made a date then to go with others, and did not let myself cancel it. For years, I would make appointments and then cancel them. I also now buy only things I know I will use, and I get pleasure out of them instead of guilt. But I still feel happier buying for others than for myself. I know it sounds silly, but maybe do one - little- nice thing for yourself a week. Anything - a walk, a tiny purchase... but promise yourself to try to feel happy about it. And know your son is happy when you are.
Now I need to tkae my own advice
Love, Beth

[Ami]

When I was talking to my aunt,I realized that my aunt loves and values herself. She "exudes" love and she always has(since I was a little girl).
  Even when she hears my voice, she always has a loving way of saying my name and says ,"How are you, dear?'
  I notice that she laughs about her foibles. My M would NEVER laugh about any of her flaws --unheard of.
  My aunt told me a story about her(my aunts) fear of dogs( which my M has to ,but will never admit it. My M would let the  dog destroy you before she ever admitted that she could not train it right).
 My Aunt worked with a lady who she went to visit. My aunt pulled up in the woman's  driveway and a huge bulldog jumped in my aunt's lap. My aunt said that she almost had a heart attack.My aunt was laughing.
  I was "shocked". I am so "trained" by my M for everything to be "topsy turvy' that I don't expect "normal" responses  like laughing at yourself.
 . My M has to be so perfect( in thought, word and deed) that there is no place for simple humanity.
  We have to learn to love ourselves.It is a necessity  in life. It is a "Don't leave home without it"issue.
  We will get there if we keep talking about it and facing the lies that we DON"T DESERVE IT---.BLEH
                                                                                     Love    Ami
                                                                                                                                     

[tayana]

Beth,

I just read the whole article.  Thanks so much for posting.  I saved it and plan to print it for my T.  So many of the things listed there are me, particularly:

People who behave co-narcissistically share
a number of the following traits: they tend to
have low self-esteem, work hard to please
others, defer to others’ opinions, focus on
others’ world views and are unaware of their
own orientations, are often depressed or
anxious, find it hard to know how they think
and feel about a subject, doubt the validity
of their own views and opinions (especially
when these conflict with others’ views), and
take the blame for interpersonal problems.

That paragraph.

When I feel depressed and anxious, today is actually one of my better days, I want to buy myself something to make myself feel better.  It's taken a long time to recognize this as a real addiction.  So when I started feeling really down a few days ago, I started getting the urge to buy something just for me, something I wanted but didn't need.  This time, I fought the urge, this is the script I've been telling myself:  "Buying something is not going to make me feel better.  I do not need this (fill in the blank) at this time.  If I buy this at this time, it will end up on my credit card, and my goal is to have no credit card debt at all in one year's time.  I will only feel worse if I make this purchase."  And it took a couple of days, but the urge to buy, buy, buy is fading, and I've been able to rationalize now, "I do want to make this purchase, but not at this time.  I need to sell some more items before I make this purchase so that I'm using extra money, not my savings."

Does that make sense?  My mom's way of making up for her abuse was always to buy me things, like that would make it all better.  She didn't pay my college tuition my freshman year, so they were going to unenroll me.  She made up for it by buying me an expensive musical instrument.  I think this tendency carried over to me, so now I"m addicted to that.

I try to do things like . . .sit in my room and read, listen to a CD I like, go for a walk, etc . . . I want "me" time.  A lot of times when I get M, we spend about thirty minutes apart.  He's in the living room, and I"m in my bedroom.  We need that time alone.

It's not to say that I haven't bought anything for myself lately.  I did, but I didn't buy those things because I wanted to make myself feel better.  I bought it to enjoy, and I didn't feel a bit guilty.  

[lighter]

I had an icky morning this morning..... couldn't find my purse.... for like 40 minutes!

Maddening! 

Sheetrockers here.... one child late for school.... tons to read, sign and write checks for in their school bags......

on the way home from dropping them at school.....(I have no radio in that car, YIKES!)  I was really feeling the anxiety.

I realized I was heading home to light a smelly candle and read the prayer book for a few minutes.  This isn't usually what my mind and body want to do when I'm feeling like this.
Reading the prayer book was something I did when I was over the top upset, not very often.

I didn't even have to fight any negative urges this time. 

MAKING myself do positive (selfish) things, when I didn't feel like it, is paying off now.

I'm gaining new habits.  Better habits.

I'm calmer and ready to get some important things out of the way.... put a few bowes on problems injoy this milestone.

I used to think that people, who cared for themselves as a priority, were selfish people. 

I truly viewd them that way.

Now I try to emulate them, lol. 

Funny ol world, eh?

[Ami]

What just hit me is that the N's "real" problem is that they don't "love" themselves so  all their 'issues" come out sideways.
   My aunt,who loves herself, loves others. My M who does not love her self tears down other with 'sharp claws" b/c she is trying to keep a vise like grip on an ounce of self esteem
  I think that the medicine for our problems( given by N's) is to love ourselves. Maybe,it is just that simple. Just a thought. Compost what needs it.                                      Love  Ami

[Iphi]

I'm still struggling with it, though I don't have anything to add.  Just that I am doing better than I was.  I used to be like this -- take the contents of a house and put them in a public square marked 'free' and walk away.  The contents of the house was me and all my best - all my love and talent and skill and time and money and friendship.  It was so hard for me to apply for jobs and schools in part because I believed no one would pay me to work for them, or allow me to be among them, that they would expect me to work for free in exchange for accepting my presence and as for schools - what need had they of my presence?  I can't really describe this better.  My thinking and feeling is/was all inside out and it not all the way healed.

Right now I am in the midst of a phase of increased selfishness.  I'm not giving to charity and I am even trying to think about whether or not I like people instead of only whether or not people like me (lol!).  Last year for Dad and sister where I had previously made big efforts with xmas gifts - I made them banana bread.  It was really good banana bread (had chocolate chips in it) and everything - it was just what I decided to give and had nothing to do with finding out what they wanted.  I decided to give what I decided to give, in other words, whether or not they particularly wanted it or had a value for it.  Does that make any sense?

tayana - when you wrote that your mom has always called you selfish - I seriously laughed out loud with incredulity.  Hello, the mom who stole her daughter's identity and ran up her credit cards is calling her daughter selfish?  Ahem!!!  Come on, you have to laugh in a painful kind of way.  I'm really into managing my little finances as a way of self-care.  Have you read Smart Women Finish Rich?  That's a very good, motivating book.

I am also practicing not giving myself away in other ways - such as in speech.  I am a classic overexplainer and will just lay myself all the way out there.  Main thing I've been working on is not speaking if it is not required, and/or if there is no direct question.  Earlier today I was on the phone about a work matter and the person at the other end threw out a fishing line because they wonder if the company I work for will take Action A or Action B.  Well, I have no idea what the company will do, and usually I would admit that even though the other person has not actually asked me what the company plans to do but was just kind of throwing out this line to see if I would bite.  So I didn't say anything at all and waited for him to give up and move on, which he did without awkwardness and we just moved along past that.  But it's such a new thing for me - it was fun!

P.S. I'm laughing that I put "I don't have anything to add" and went on to do this long post.  rofl!  And gratitude I just want to say I really think Rappaport makes some really home points - really great insights.  He really gets it and his work, Dr. Grossman's essays and also Dr. Nina Brown's have been so helpful this past year - so incredibly helpful.  I never knew what the heck was wrong with me before this past year.  It's just amazing to actually know, after all this time.

[tayana]

tayana - when you wrote that your mom has always called you selfish - I seriously laughed out loud with incredulity.  Hello, the mom who stole her daughter's identity and ran up her credit cards is calling her daughter selfish?  Ahem!!!  Come on, you have to laugh in a painful kind of way.  I'm really into managing my little finances as a way of self-care.  Have you read Smart Women Finish Rich?  That's a very good, motivating book.

Iphi,

I haven't read that one.  I'll have to check it out.  I've read some of Suze Orman's books.  I really like her. 

I suppose in a painful, ironic sort of way, it is rather funny.  I just got a ten page document from my attorney that I have to fill out about the ID theft.

I found this book on Amazon that I bought for myself called "The Adult Child's Guide to What's Normal."  I've slowly begun to realize that I have no idea what "normal" healthy interactions look or feel like.  I've never had any.  It's a very interesting book.  It gives examples of healthy and unhealthy interaction and ways to change.