which is better? the N that admits it or the N that denies it

[reallyME]

I'm sitting here, pondering this.

I think that it's easier to deal with an N that admits and can see their tendencies and traits of the personality disorder problem.

For myself, i have openly admitted to the things in me that I see as bordering on being narcissistic, but from time to time, I have read posts on here in which it sounds like the person complaining about the N, is actually an N themselves, and maybe even projecting the other person as the N.

I think it is easier and feels safer to me to deal with someone who not only SEES the narcissism that is in themself, but also whom you can approach about it and won't become enraged over it.

Again, just speaking for myself and possibly about myself at times.

[tayana]

I think if a person sees the N traits and realizes they possess them, they are more likely to try to get better, or at least, be more aware of how their actions affect other people.

[Ami]

Dear Laura,
  The degree of N is directly related to how honest they can be with themselves,I think. Self  knowledge would be the only way OUT of being an N--if you could say it that way.                 Love  Ami

[reallyME]

Dr Phil says on one of his tapes: "It's the people who need psychology the least who will benefit the most."

I'm the type of person who is always seeking to find out the flaws in myself so i can work on them.  My husband is a person who says "but you...you did.......you have to..........you should........if you would _____ then I wouldn't have to _________"

Thankfully he has agreed to marriage counseling with me with my current therapist.  We shall see how that goes...

~Laura

[lighter]

The N who admits to flaws.... is just using a different route to control and manipulate.

They don't really think they need help or have any problems.

They can't. 

It doesn't further their agenda... and everything's about the agenda, dont'cha know?

[Bella_French]

I agree Lighter. A person who can admit to having flaws and sincerely wish to change for the sake of others is not an N.

X bella

[wiltay]

Elan Golomb says in her book, Trapped in the Mirror, that children of N's have an easy entrance into being N's themselves because they had such good role models and she talks about different degrees of N personalities.   Dr. Grossman seems pretty clear in saying (IMO) that Narcissism and Voicelessness are two different(nearly opposite) responses to the same problem in the child/parent relationship in early development.  In other words, V's and N's  are opposite sides of the same coin (?)  Both suffer from a severe lack of self-esteem, which creates enormous problems in functioning in healthy ways.  But we ALL have N characteristics, in fact narcissism can be a healthy expression of self-love and there is nothing inherently bad about it in itself.  It's when it becomes diseased/malignant/compulsive/whatever you want to call the extreme when it becomes destructive to others. 

     I go around  and around in circles with this.  I've always been a little bothered by the 'finger-pointing' and the demonizing of N's but I think it's basically valid because the destructive behavior exists and the damage is very real.  People who are mostly N's are FAR more destructive than people who are mostly V's, that seems pretty clear.  At the same time, alot of the damage has our complicity, our own dysfunctions at the heart of it and the only real solutions are within ourselves.   This is getting a little off-topic, but I've wanted to put forth this idea for some time and this thread triggered it.  What *I* would say is that an N making an admission of guilt could be pure manipulation or not.  It would depend upon if they changed their behavior or not. 

Bill

[alone48]

Would you be able to trust an N that seemed to have changed? No matter what you get back to "is this manipulation or the real thing"? Yes, it's healthy to have some N characteristics instead of taking care of everyone all the time, but would you classify a health N as an N.....that seems an oxymoron. Again just babbling an thanks for helping me to think out loud.

[teartracks]

Hi everyone,

Dr. Grossman seems pretty clear in saying (IMO) that Narcissism and Voicelessness are two different(nearly opposite) responses to the same problem in the child/parent relationship in early development.  In other words, V's and N's  are opposite sides of the same coin (?)  Both suffer from a severe lack of self-esteem, which creates enormous problems in functioning in healthy ways.

My introduction to narcissism began here.  I'll never forget the day  I sat shocked to my marrow by Dr. G;s essays.  I said, There's my family!   From there, I began the 'life examined'.  I avoid as much as is possible interacting with N's when I meet them casually.  However, there are three narcissists in my life.  By in my life, I mean that I care for them.  I love them.  The cost of being in relationship with a narcissist is excessively expensive emotionally.  Of the three, one is my NC sister.  One is another relative that I can keep at arms length.  The N that I interact with all the time is my mom.  Our relationship  is (or was) a textbook case of V vs N.  The scales fell off my eyes over seven years ago.  During that time, my observation and experience interfaces completely with Dr. G's definition of narcissism and voicelessness.  I agree with what you said Bill about V and N being two sides of one coin. 

tt

Edit in:   I think honest introspection is an illusion to a narcissist.  IMO, the wise listener will ALWAYS remember that a narcissist ALWAYS  trades in illusions. 

 

 

[wiltay]

Alone, I think once an N, always an N and therefore you can always trust them to be an N and THAT'S what you can count on.  But some of them (most of them ??) are capable of seeing their faults and responding to efforts to hold them accountable.  My NF mellowed out a huge amount as he got older and less insecure about himself and he became much easier to live with and he could even be loving and considerate every once in awhile.  I think some of this might have been the result of therapy my M dragged him to, but I really don't know. He still had an N's view of the world however (my way or no way) and that never changed. 

     I think once you figure out more of your own stuff you can learn to 'manage' some, maybe all (untested!) N's and call them on their crap and they have to respond.  You don't have to let then manipulate you or exploit you once you've taken your own handcuffs off and learned how not to be voiceless.  Like Ami was saying about her M, they fold up like lawn chairs once you find the hinge and you wonder why the heck it took you so long to figure it out.  But it took your own self-discovery to make it happen and there is/was nothing easy about THAT.  I've discovered this with E, the volleyball guy and T, a very N-ex-house mate, neither one of them admittedly extremely important people to me, but people I have known forever and who use to regularly cause me grief. They will always be a royal pain in the b*tt  though, no matter what.

The cost of being in relationship with a narcissist is excessively expensive emotionally.

Ain't that the truth tt.  A relationship with an N is something you would never volunteer for.

Bill

[Ami]

Dear Bill,
 I love,"Fold up like a lawn chair".
 At the risk of getting tomatoes thrown at me, I think that I need to develop more N qualities. The hard part is that I need to feel comfortable with them. As I read Iphi' s post ,I could feel the feeling that I had as a child if I had "self esteem". I would feel like a huge sword would fall down from the sky and slice  me.
  I still feel that ,now. Iphi's post reminded me of that when she was talking about not feeling like she had the right to "be"
  I felt like I did not have the right to feel good about myself. I could "be" if I was submissive to my M. I coud not be if I  " out shone " her in any way. A BIG way that I could not outshine her was in self love(N).
I remember that much of her abuse was focused on my excitement about feeling good about myself. It could be s/thing simple like my friend and I painting our nails. I ran to show her.She made some nasty  comment that made me shrink. I remember her laughing when  I was in my teens and my "b/f" and I had a "song". She thought that it  was the  most 'stupid" thing. I remember her mocking  voice .It was the song,'Miracles". She said.'WHAT---- was it a miracle that you found each other?"
I read that D's of cerebral N's can develop their minds,but NOT their emotions.I think that I was allowed to develop my mind(Thank God).but not my self esteem or ability to love and nurture myself. I fell in to the same trap that Iphi was  in when she felt  like she does  not have the right to "be."
  I feel like I do not have the right to have proper N. I need to force myself to bring my power back in to my own body.I need to be able to sit with my own "right" to be and right to own the space (in life)that is mine.It is really,really heard to break this conditioning.
 I  look up to the sky and expect the sword to come down and slice me for the 'nerve" of wanting to inhabit my own space.I feel a depression even writing about it.I feel so "disloyal".I feel so "wrong."
 These deep feelings of self annihilation are written in to my very core. Now, I am in the process of erasing them.
  You, dear friends on the board, are allowing me to dig deep and find the treasure within. WE were not born to be like this.We were not made to 'annilihate " ourselves. How could we be made as God's creatures and  our goal would be to "destroy" ourselves. It is a perversion of how it was supposed to be. it is "out of the order of things".
 .
(((((((((((((((((Bill, Iphi, Alone),TT)))))))))))))))))))))     Love   Ami                                                                                                           

[Iphi]

It doesn't further their agenda... and everything's about the agenda, dont'cha know?

And to add a cherry on top of lighter's briliant sundae of a post, the agenda is always about controlling you.

teartracks wrote

Edit in:   I think honest introspection is an illusion to a narcissist.  IMO, the wise listener will ALWAYS remember that a narcissist ALWAYS  trades in illusions. 

That is such a brilliant insight.  This topic has so much hard won wisdom in it.  Makes me wonder if the N is 'master' or victim of their illusions?  I think victim, but the N shuffles the illusions about with lots of flashy prestidigitation.

wiltay - loooved the lawn chair image.  I will never forget that.  It's a classic.

Whoa Ami, just read your post.  Yeah!  Well you said it.  You have a visceral way of expressing yourself and I'm feeling it.  And I can easily imagine the withering mockery because I lived it too.  A lot more goo is bubbling up out of the primordial ooze so I'll save it for another topic.   

[reallyME]

WOW!  I came on here to check on the threads I started and I must say I was really blessed to see that this one spurred on some convo.  It must really have been a God-thing.

The one thing that is becoming very clear to me, is that N's are always, 24/7, 365 days a year, in SELF-PROTECTIVE mode.
They are not only protecting against when you slip up and get in their faces...they are always "on" this mode, for even ANTICIPATED insults.

That's right...if an N even SUSPECTS that you are insulting them, THEY EXPLODE ALL OVER YOU or to your friends, family, etc.

The Bible says "confess your faults one to another."  To an N, this feels like a DEATH SENTENCE.  First of all, in their own eyes they HAVE NO FAULTS other than the ones YOU caused in them.  Secondly, what GOOD WILL IT DO TO TELL YOU MY ISSUES?  This is how they think.  One in my life always prided themselves on being able to work out their issues between them and God, yet, this person continually abused others, so how WORKED out were those things really?

Just my thoughts.

[alone48]

It's funny the insight you gain when you can remove yourself from a situation. My ex N learned well from his M, but I met her later in life when she had mellowed and appeared to be a kind sweet older lady. Hindsight I can see where he just continued the cycle. He had a love hate relationship with his mother and I was the easy target for his anger, rather than upset M.

He often told me he did not want to be the man that destroyed my life, like his mother's ex.  Her ex had tried to kill himself and they both thought this was the epitimy of how important she had been to him. Sad.

[wiltay]

However, there are three narcissists in my life.  By in my life, I mean that I care for them.

TT,  I keep thinking what you said about your Ns.  I have been in a quandary for a long time about what to do about the Ns in my life that have given so little and taken so much.  I get so angry about it!  And I think that the obvious thing to do is to throw them out of my life forever and be done with them forever and all people like them.  But that really isn't possible or realistic and it just isn't me.  Like you, I think I  just have to learn how to live with them like bad weather I can't change and wear rain gear whenever I'm around them so they can't get me wet and make me sick with their crap.  Thanks for 'modeling' this for me TT!  This is a major big deal for me and you showed me the way.

Bill