which is better? the N that admits it or the N that denies it

[Poppy Seed]

Can a true N admit to character flaws??  Or admit that they were wrong or misunderstood?  My limited experience is that they cannot.  I think that is something that is a useful element to me.  It helps me to let go of the hope.  It helps me to stop engaging with them in trusting ways.  It helps me know more of what I am dealing with so I can protect myself in more effective ways.

Anytime my N's find that they are in a corner....it is victim mode.  The tears ..... the blaming.....the theatrics to gain sympathy from those who buy the act.  They don't allow themselves to see flaws.  They need the illusion so badly.   

I have also been uncomfortable with demonizing N's.  It is crazy.  I still love my n family very much.  It is a one sided thing and will never be satisfying.  I am learning to accept that and learn what steps I need to implement so that I remain safe....as NC is not really an option.  But, I still love them.  And I am really sad for them.  I am sad that introspection is SOOO scary.  They live life with blinders on.  And have no idea how much pain they cause.  They miss SOOO MUCH!  I am sad that they know so little of what real love is and what it feels like. 

All I have to say, is I am grateful for truth.  Even the kind that hurts.  Because I can't get anywhere good without it.  SO, Here is to the truth lovers!! I should start a club -- The Truth Lovers Association"!

Poppy

[Ami]

i know that deep down ,I STILL have not fully accepted  that my M is so lost and hopeless. Way down deep,I still have hope.This is probably really bad for me.
 I bet that it is.I think that it prevents me from "fully taking all my baggage(me) and wresting it away from any type of a relationship with my M and putting all my eggs in to my own basket.I bet that I am still sick to  the degree that I still have hope. What do you think?
                                                                                                                 Ami

[Poppy Seed]

Maybe the truth about whether or not they are hopeless is not a question for us to answer.  It is the part of this that we can give to God.  He is the only one with enough information to truly answer the question.  I have a hard time believing that anyone is hopeless.  Especially one that is clever enough to create the whip cream world to begin with.  They must be very resourceful and creative....not to mention quick on their feet.

I am telling myself that I am operating detached from them.  I am not acting as if I have hope.  I am not hoping.  It is not a judgement of them.  It is a choice that works for me.  I am looking to myself and more trustworthy individuals for companionship. I am not giving into the temptation to teach them, or control them in any way.   But I catch myself looking over my shoulder wishing for something different.  Maybe when I can truly accept myself as I am.  And truly accept my life as it is and then learn to love it exactly the way it is...I will have conquered the pull my N's have on me.  The truth is that my N's can rage all they want.....but it is my thinking and my lack of boundaries and confidence that is really causing me the pain.  They really only have control over the things I let them have control over.  So,  I think there is hope.  But the hope lies within myself.  Lord, help me to acheive at least that.

Poppy

[kaylebsmommy702]

In my experience an N can not see his/her flaws. They are a perfect being in their own minds. And for them to "admit" they have done wrong or that they see whats wrong with themselves is just to gain your sympathy. A true N will fly into theatricals so convincing to themselves- they can cry like a baby. Or they will turn every "problem' that they have to somehow being your fault. And then admit thats a problem they have "blaming other people". Puh-leese!!! I divorced one. I wish you strength!!!

K

[wiltay]

Oops, I just saw my lawn chair analogy in a TV COMMERCIAL so I can't claim ownership.   I thought I tuned out commercials pretty much totally but there it was.  Dang!  It IS a good analogy, but not mine after all. 
     Ami, listening to your description of your M when you were growing up made me so disgusted and angry.   Your anger towards her is so understandable.   I think N's attack and try to sabotage what they envy in you, things they themselves are clearly lacking.  The 3 year old saying if *I* can't have it, neither can you!  That voice of annihilation (Golomb's introjected parent)in your head is hers of course, the lies and garbage she felt compelled to feed you so you couldn't have something she was incapable of.  There really should be an N- test before someone is allowed to be a parent (or a therapist for that matter)! 

Bill

[Bella_French]

 I feel the same way; its kind of confusing.

Do you think it would make any difference to future generations if NPD was recognized as severe mental illness, and society as a whole treated it as such? I'm not sure, but perhaps that should include limiting their power to abuse people within society, such not letting them hold important jobs or parenting, or having certain ground rules they need to fulfill before doing so.

I think most of the anger I hold towards the N's in my life surrounds the fact that they are regarded as `regular people' by society and everyone around them, and so  when I've encountered such people, I've held them to standards of regular people. Its such a lonely feeling sometimes, being a victim of N abuse, and noone else sees it or know how or why it happened. or that maybe they are co-abusers themselves.

In any case, its an enormous problem in society, and I do think the anger of victims is entirely justified. NPD sufferers are a menace and anyone unaware of NPD can become a victim of their abuse.

X Bella

[wiltay]

Bella, I think calling NPD a mental illness is unfair to the rest of us, because it implies that their poor behavior towards other people is out of their control and I don't buy it.   I think Ns get away with so much bad behavior in our society because our culture supports and even encourages self-serving, grasping, completely self-centered behavior on so many levels and actually rewards people for it.  So I think people have a hard time labeling N behavior for what it is and holding people accountable for it.   Most N's IME are intelligent people and well able to intellectually grasp the nature of their flaws, if completely unable (or unwilling!) to emotionally integrate these truths into their grossly conceited illusions about themselves.   I so much agree with you Bella, I think N's get away with murder.

Bill

[Hopalong]

A few times when my xNbf was being most open, he described to me a feeling of great hollow darkness deep within himself. I think he was genuinely horrified by it. But I don't think he was able to change himself.

Hops

[Bella_French]

Bella, I think calling NPD a mental illness is unfair to the rest of us, because it implies that their poor behavior towards other people is out of their control and I don't buy it.   I think Ns get away with so much bad behavior in our society because our culture supports and even encourages self-serving, grasping, completely self-centered behavior on so many levels and actually rewards people for it.  So I think people have a hard time labeling N behavior for what it is and holding people accountable for it.   Most N's IME are intelligent people and well able to intellectually grasp the nature of their flaws, if completely unable (or unwilling!) to emotionally integrate these truths into their grossly conceited illusions about themselves.   I so much agree with you Bella, I think N's get away with murder.

Bill

Thanks for answering my questions Bill! I really enjoyed hearing your thoughts; I think they have helped me to wade through some of my confusion too.

The part that has been the  most confusing to me is what you mentioned: are they just unwilling to change, or incapable? I suspect `unwilling' is closer to the truth, and you're totally right: society rewards and supports their behavior. The sad fact is, it will probably continue to do so. Perhaps NPD is is even a product our unhealthy society?
Remember that book `American Psycho' written in the eighties? It was kind of a parable, which linked societal reward and support systems with psychopathy. The author did a very good job of demonstrating this, i think (if you have not rad it, I recommend it)

X bella

[teartracks]

Bella, I think calling NPD a mental illness is unfair to the rest of us, because it implies that their poor behavior towards other people is out of their control and I don't buy it.   I think Ns get away with so much bad behavior in our society because our culture supports and even encourages self-serving, grasping, completely self-centered behavior on so many levels and actually rewards people for it.  So I think people have a hard time labeling N behavior for what it is and holding people accountable for it.   Most N's IME are intelligent people and well able to intellectually grasp the nature of their flaws, if completely unable (or unwilling!) to emotionally integrate these truths into their grossly conceited illusions about themselves. 
 
Hi Bill,

I haven't experienced or observed anything that would pursuade me to view narcissism a disease.  As I see it, narcissist cleverly cultivate victims to perform as their captives.  And as you suggest, that is why narcissism is called a disorder rather than a disease of the mind.  We talk about that a lot in conjunction with the Stockholm Syndrome.   I don't know how or if SS is the same, but there are similarities.   The thing I know is that  narcissist's  are a sadistic, aggressive, insidious invader of innocents and the unwary.  I get in the weeds trying to figure out whether the behavior is willful or programmed from their own past abuse.  I tend to believe the latter.  Regardless, I intend to keep the veil between me and them!   

tt

[Ami]

Let me just pose this question. Tell me what you think?
 I see my M as not being able to "help' her overall thinking. However, she choses to bully kids and weaker people(my F before he changed).
  So,I see it as some "choice'as to bullying that they know is wrong. However, the overall thinking disorder they can't help. Does that make sense?. It is just a thought that I formulated.                  Ami

[Bella_French]

Thats a good question Ami. I've read that NPD can be cured, but the circumstances have to be where there is no more Narcissistic Supply and the NPD sufferer hits rock bottom. Perhaps its best, then,  to look at it like an addiction (to NS)?

Maybe the real problem is that `hitting rock bottom' (which is known to be the time when many substance abusers become willing to change) is highly improbable, since the prevalence of NS is so high. It can take so many forms, and Narcissists tend to adapt to what they can get.

So maybe they are just addicts who haven't hit rock bottom (and are unlikely to)?

[Ami]

Let me pose this ( for discussion b/c I don't have a definite answer).An N would be different than an alcoholic or drug addict who could have empathy ,kindness, caring etc  but use a substance to numb pain. An addiction is not a "character disorder".IOW, an alcoholic does not have "certain" defined personality traits such as lack of empathy etc. They just used a substance to numb pain. The substance could be food, shopping, reading, (any escape)
  So, an N would have to be different than an 'addict"---it seems to me . What do you think?          Ami

[reallyME]

The thing I think that resembles early N'ism is Reactive Attachment Disorder

[changing]

My parents were both mega-Ns. My soon to be xNH is an N+. None of these folks have ever exhibited any hint that they are aware of their Nness, except for a cryptic phone message from my NF a few months before he died saying that he just wanted to say that was thinking that he was "out of bounds" with me. He never elaborated, and continued his same methodof mistreating me until the end.

Love,

Changing