N vs. Culture

[claris]

I have been wrestling with the problem of distinguishing whether the N behavior that my mother displays is partly cultural (not psychological).   (i say partly b/c lots of it can't be explained by culture i think)

When I read descriptions of Nists, my mother seems textbook.  But although I recognized many unhealthy behavior patterns before, I often explained them away by attributing it to "culture".  (she's chinese)  For example, control over children (inlcuding adult children), materialism and status-consciousness, different value system, problems of communication (also attributable to language).  These things are typical of Ns, but could also correlate culturally/linguistically.

Anyone have any thoughts on this?


p.s. Please don't flame me for being anti-chinese.  Couldn't be farther from the truth.

[Anonymous]

I don't think you're anti-Chinese. And I bet some of your mom's behavior can be attributed to cultural factors. How much of it is, is what you might want to think about.

bunny

[Tokyojim]

It is unfortunate that we have to be careful of political correctness in much of what we say.  It inhibits speaking freely in our society.

But that is another matter.

I lived in Asia for a long time, so I can recognize the aspects about which you wrote.  In order to understand your situation, please let us know a bit more.  Your mother is Chinese, but what about you?  Is your father also Chinese?  Was Chinese spoken in your home?  Do you speak it?

I think that many things that Chinese often highly value, like materialism and its relationship to status, and also how children should relate to their parents and follow their wishes, can be viewed as somewhat "N."  But much of this depends on how much you identify with the culture also.

[Anonymous]

thanks for the replies.

my mom is chinese, but i was born and raised here.  my american biological father bailed out before i remember, so i only got 'nature' from him, not 'nurture'.  my mom ruled the household, so my stepfather also didn't give me much cultural influence i think.  didn't speak chinese at home, but i do speak basic chinese learned in school and have traveled a lot and lived for a couple of years in asia.  also have a lot of asian friends.  i'd say i do appreciate very much and identify with chinese culture, but i am american primarily.

i think the issue of culture complicates the issue.  i read that Ns are materialistic, power-seeking, status-conscious - i used to think this cultural, but isn't that a bit insulting to chinese culture?  Ns expect people around them, especially their children, to obey them, to respect them, to be suitably grateful and not to complain or criticize.  my mother is like this - is this just her being chinese?

the things that make me lean toward thinking she's an N are her violent temper, tantrums, obliviousness to other people's feelings, selfishness, inability to accept any criticism, physical aggression, inability to see any one else's point of view.  her inability to sustain any healthy relationships (i can't think of even one close friend that she has - she only has more casual friendships based on my stepfather's relationships)  things that i don't associate with chinese culture.

i wonder if perhaps she, because of cultural reasons, is more prone to Nism?  if so, does that mean i should be more forgiving?  should i tolerate more?  

thanks for your thoughts on this.

claris

[Portia]

Hiya Claris, I'm sure you're going to get a few replies on this:

if so, does that mean i should be more forgiving? should i tolerate more?

She's your mother! If anyone does any forgiving and tolerating, it's, in the natural biological  order, supposed to be her, not you. I think this has nothing to do with culture and everything to do with you having a disturbed mother.

You don't have to do anything that you think you are obliged to do by society, culture or anything else. You do what feels right for you. Forget the 'shoulds'....best wishes P

[Anonymous]

i think the issue of culture complicates the issue.  i read that Ns are materialistic, power-seeking, status-conscious - i used to think this cultural, but isn't that a bit insulting to chinese culture?  Ns expect people around them, especially their children, to obey them, to respect them, to be suitably grateful and not to complain or criticize.  my mother is like this - is this just her being chinese?

I think most cultures are materialistic, power-seeking and status conscious. Your mother may be exploiting societal acceptance of cultural traits to the maximum, and she even goes over the top.

i wonder if perhaps she, because of cultural reasons, is more prone to Nism?  if so, does that mean i should be more forgiving?  should i tolerate more?

I would be honest with myself about what parts of her behavior can be attributed to cultural expectations, and what parts of her behavior are idiosyncratic.

bunny

[Tokyojim]

I do not think you need to keep being careful about political correctness.  There are many places where cultures can collide.  Despite using what some consider reason, being open, "talking it out," etc., these barriers sometimes simply cannot be overcome.  Despite what Bunny says, cultures differ VASTLY in materialism, and with status- and power-seeking.

In your case, it seems to be beyond cultural issues, but these are probably exacerbating the situation.

The one key issue is her inability to sustain healthy relationships.  If you think that culture may be an issue, then look at the relationships she has within her culture.  They do not sound healthy.

[Spirit]

hi Claris,

I have very often wonderd about this too. I am a Sri Lnkan but haved lived in three different cultural backgrounds namely Srilankan, Indian ( most of my life ) and now British.

I was brought up the Sri Lankan way perhaps but my 'running away' instict has somehow made be run away and look at culture from an outside point of view too perhaps and this has given me many insights.

To put it bluntly ( without meaning to offend any culture even if it is mine and I still consider it mine and am proud of it unconditionally ) I will have to say that our culture certainly is N friendly. The cultural dictionary teaches :

'Love' is.. to take care of others especially parents even at your own cost. The culture gives sanction to even publicise and celebrate this through films, books etc

Sacrificing your life for parents sake or for the sake of your h/w is 'martyredom' and is celebrated as being the ideal 'son' 'husband' etc

'Therapy' is something amusing which a doctor does to get money away from a 'stupid rich woman' in the western world where there is no family value. Any hey this is not the 'voices' from my dad and my abusive family, but the general consenting voices in certain if not major part of society as such

'Abuse' is a disease in the western world where people are so selfish and don't have fmaily values

It goes on and on..

I can assure you ( from experience ) that the average educational institute, doctor, won't provide any help agains't this 'cultural' wall that too it is unthinkable outside cetain big cities. There is no such thing as therapy. Culture runs society, not laws. Cultural laws are strict and have to be adhered to. Culture in other words holds ''power".

Having said that.. still I would NOT believe that culture is pathologically Narcisistic. Families and individuals somehow find their own 'loopholes' in cultural law to be themselves where culture simply LIES. It is like growing up gay in a straight world or vice versa ( again no offense meant to anyone ) It is only families which are equally abusive that take refuge in this 'culture' and make it even stronger.

I wish some of these 'culturally proud' people stop seeing post modernism as a western threat to 'our culture'. For me 'my culture' would be the way I am.  I do find myself culturally voiceless sometimes when I live in the Western world, but hey it is not pathologic or I don't feel threatened and find a need to shun out the rest of the world and concentrate on my culture alone. I have applied to go to therapy and have cut off relationship with my parents ( again socially not acceptable ) but who cares as long as I am heeling !

Does this mean I have come out of 'culture' ? cos I am doing things contrary to popular cultural view ? My answer would be no. Cos I am my culture and I am proud of it

About forgiving parents cos thier action are sanctionrd by culture ? I would strictly say NO. If you do that then you would be also validating the 'abusiv'e nature of that culture isnt it and making it even stronger ? For me fighting against it by being honest to yourself ( and being honest about your mom in your mind ) and not forgiving her selfishness would also means showing a bit of social and cultural consciousness in a way

Spirit

[Anonymous]

Hi Claris -- Many children of immigrant parents clash with their parents because the parents still observe the values of the culture they left, while the children have grown up in Western culture. So even if your mother were not an N, which I think she clearly is, you would likely have had disagreements with her. Why not try focusing on setting some basic rules for her -- she cannot insult or criticize your H, she cannot yell and scream on the phone, etc. and work on enforcing those. I see those behaviors as unacceptable no matter what her cultural background, and also see them as necessary to show your H that you respect him, which is basic to a happy marriage. What you want is for her to deal with you in a civil manner.

Wanting to control her children may have its roots in her culture, but you obviously wouldn't be happy obeying her the way she would like you to, so you're going to have to work out a different relationship. And if she is materialistic and status-conscious, you're never going to change her, so why worry about why she is that way?

Down the line you'll probably have to make decisions about her relationship with your children, but you can think about that later. First things first.

Morgan

[Tokyojim]

Yes, Spirit, I agree wholeheartedly that culture is what really holds power.  Even if a person decides to go to therapy, the way that it is looked upon and used is interpreted by culture.

It has to be incredibly difficult when a person is forced to choose between two or more cultures, but this happens often, not only between generations but also when moving to a new country.

I noticed the people who post here are constantly vigilant about not being misinterpreted as being "culturally insensitive" or seeming to be "prejudice."  Very, very American.  And probably British.  I have lived in other cultures and do not notice this constant paranoia.

Years ago, I met an Asian lady (I am a white American), and we were considering marriage.  Her father finally spoke to me in private.  He said, "I was very much against this at first.  However, I thought about my own life and realized that I went against my own parents.  They wanted me to stay nearby and marry in a certain way.  I left, went to the big city and became successful.  My daughter is the same as I am."  He definitely was NOT an N parent.  If the person has love for their children, they will understand, even if they are hurt.  If not, they can go to h...

[write]

I think there are definitely cultural bearings on narcissistic behaviour, and I don't think it's inappropriate to comment positively so long as we recognise that many people will live outside their cultural norm and not uniformly stereotype.

[Tokyojim]

Write,

Culture is more deeply ingrained than you may recognize yourself.  Spirit obviously recognizes that.  Keep in mind that because people point out certain features or characteristics that are pervasive in a culture, it does not mean that they are not recognizing differences.  Ignoring these patterns can lead to more misunderstanding than the proclivity to add a PC touch to everything.

[write]

Culture is more deeply ingrained than you may recognize yourself. Spirit obviously recognizes that. Keep in mind that because people point out certain features or characteristics that are pervasive in a culture, it does not mean that they are not recognizing differences. Ignoring these patterns can lead to more misunderstanding than the proclivity to add a PC touch to everything.

sorry, don't understand what you're saying Tokyojim?

I certainly acknowledge the cultural differences contributing to narcissism ( you only have to look at the US position on Iraq for example! )

However, aren't we just contributing to another kind of 'voicelessness' if we decide to stereotype people by race?

There's a reason ( and in my book a necessity ) for 'pc' as you call it.

[Tokyojim]

Write,

There is another type of "voicelessness" created when people become afraid to say anything that can be interpreted as stereotyping any group of people.  When I read the posts in which people are qualifying virtually anything that they say about cultural tendencies, I see a kind of voicelessness created by the societal pressures of PC.  People are afraid of saying anything that can be interpreted by the PCers as bias, prejudice, stereotyping, etc.  Scary!

[Tokyojim]

I would like to see "PC" gone and replaced by another concept that has been around for many, many generations - Manners