The Next Course of Action?

[Dawning]

HI Folks,

I have been living back in the states for about a month now. 

Unfortunately, the person who helped me move and I have reached an impasse that is just beyond my ability to put succinctly into words.  I wrote a long post (over 4,000 words - 2,000 over the limit ) about not listening to my intuition with this guy but, basically, what my intuition is telling me NOW is that he has a knack for finding and exploiting situations where people need help, to his advantage.  And what is even worse, is that I thought we were building a positive relationship.  The annoying parts of it were manageable or so I thought. 

Here is the deal:  he unequivocally stated that he would NOT live with me.  Fair enough.  However, he has correctly sensed the help I need getting settled in and my current lack of a community or network of local people, having just moved here and he has taken it upon himself to provide me with a temporary vehicle, for which I have repeatedly expressed gratitude.  When he is not in helping mode, he stays here at my place, reading a large book about human evolution, only stopping to cook, sleep or go visit his friends at a moment's notice without telling me.  Any discomfort I express is met with his large voice preaching my flaws at me or telling me to "scoot, shorty."  Last night, he yelled so loudly that I had to leave the room for fear he would wake up my neighbors with whom I am trying to build a good relationship as I pay my rent to them.  He often tells me that I live in a poor man's house or a Mexican migrant workers' shed and he spends some deal of time ingratiating himself into my landlords' good terms.  I am the one who signed the lease stating that only one person would reside here. 

Nevertheless, he continues to come and go as he pleases, because I need "some help."  This morning, he left with no notification (he sleeps in the living room on a sleeping bag) and when I called him, he told me that I was breaking up and that I needed to "go work on my phone issues."  When I expressed discomfort yesterday with his lack of physical affection, he said that my weight gain was a big part of it and, if I had listened to his displeasure about my weight gain a year ago, I would have done something about it by now but, because I don't listen or care, I have brought this on myself.

I have no idea about what to do.  Not even info on a crisis hotline or how it would be handled here.  I don't want the police/agency of some sort coming up here in this remote location, causing grief for my new neighbors when I am trying to put my best foot foreward but his coming and going as he pleases is wreaking havoc on my trying to build a life for myself here. 

I just don't know how I am going to get him out of here amicably, perhaps remaining friends.  If he doesn't get his way, I fear he will lash out verbally and god knows in what other ways.  If I put all his stuff outside and lock the door, I wouldn't put it past him to start a commotion that will upset the peace and quiet that the landlady insisted upon when I signed the lease.

In any case, he is not here now and I've no idea when he will come back.  It is almost like I want to be out of here when he does come back.  But, me being me, I want to be here to try and work things out amicably even though our relationship is quite clearly on the rocks and I, at least, need a break from his constant indifference at one end and verbal lashings at the other. 

What would someone do in this circumstance? 

Dawning

[Hops guest]

I would go talk to the landlady and tell her, there may be a brief disruption because I just have to put out this man who is imposing on me. I know you don't want him here and I don't, either. I just want to prepare you that when I put out his things, he may raise a ruckus. But once he's out, there'll be peace and quiet again.

Then I would call the police and ask if you can have an intimidating unwelcome guest who is not on your lease and who refuses to leave to be escorted off the property?

Neither of those bits of advice some from any practical experience though, so heave it over for any wisdom from someone who does know what works.

I'm very sorry you're going through all this. THAT kind of affection you don't need, Dawning.

love to you,
Hops

[Ami]

Dear Dawning,
  It sounds BAD to me. It may have  the potential for underlying violence . He may be threatening you in a subtle way, already.
   How to get rid of him is the question. This would call for a big muscular relative or friend.
  You are alone there,which is a problem.
  First of all, I would face(squarely) that he is a bad dude. How bad--you don't know. Your plan has to be to get rid of him as painlessly as possible. Maybe, you could use reverse psychology and act like you want to marry him or you can't live without him and you could drive him away with this. The best way to get rid of s/one(psychologically speaking) would be to hang on them like a leach.
  If this does not apply,I guess that you are forced to use the police. I hope that he is not the type to get back at you for this.
  With the first way, you could get him to leave on his own.
  Maybe there are some other scenarios that you could cook up to get him to leave on his own. If these don't work, the police would be your only answer.
   I wish you very good luck. Hopefully ,he is only an annoying person and not dangerous. Whatever he is,it sounds like he HAS to go.
   Sorry, Dawning. It sounds like a terrible situation to extricate yourself from. My heart goes out to you, Friend.   Love   Ami

((((((((((((((((((((((Dawning)))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))0

[reallyME]

Dawning,

I read your entire post and the part that alerted me and concerned me, was where you typed this:

In any case, he is not here now and I've no idea when he will come back.  It is almost like I want to be out of here when he does come back.  But, me being me, I want to be here to try and work things out amicably

Ok first, HE IS NOT HERE NOW...good time to make plans for an escape or to do research on his background/criminal history, etc. 

Next, NO IDEA WHEN HE WILL COME BACK...he comes and goes as he pleases.  NOT GOOD AT ALL.  You have someone who is operating from a sense of keeping you guessing and on edge...one of the main traits of most abusers and psychopathic types of people.

IT IS ALMOST LIKE I WANT TO BE OUT OF HERE WHEN HE DOES COME BACK...........that is called FEAR...when I teach my children about stranger danger, I teach them to listen to the "alarm" inside their head that goes off and to OBEY IT WITHOUT QUESTION!  I suggest you do likewise.  There is a reASON you are feeling uneasy. LISTEN TO YOUR THOUGHTS, FEARS, CONCERNS AND TAKE HEALTHY ACTION TO GET TO A PLACE OF SAFETY!

the last thing you said about wanting to stay and work on things, etc...................NO NO AND NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!  First, it is NOT YOUR JOB TO FIX THIS MAN OR THIS RELATIONSHIP.  Secondly, you can't fix something when your mind is telling you it's best to get OUT of the situation.

All I can say is I felt RED FLAGS THROUGH THE ENTIRE POST FROM YOU.  Please, protect yourself, be safe and make wise choices in this.  You do not have to stay with this man, you do not have to try and make things better, you do not have to figure this out.  Just listen to your thoughts andhttp://TAKE ACTION...QUICKLY, Please.

I try not to be bossy but in this case, I feel I need to be urgent with you for some reason.

I care

~Laura

[Dawning]

HI and thanks for those replies and for caring.

Very briefly before bedtime here...
ReallyMe, that link in your post doesn't seem to work. 
All your comments are really valuable. 

I like the idea of creating a scenario that will do the job, which is what I did.  His friend will stop by for lunch on Saturday and they've agreed that he'll go and stay with this friend when the lunch is over.  He won't be able to back out because he'll lose face with his friend around and, one thing I've noticed is that he immediately becomes nice and cooperative when a man - any man - is around.

Then, I told him that we simply have to get along somehow for the next three days.  We haven't talked much but that is better than what it has been.

Three more days I can handle.  It is nothing to the last 2 months.

Thank you all again.
Love always,
Dawning.

[Bella_French]

Dear Dawning, I can only say this based on Hindsight, but if it were me in your situation I would do what it takes to get the guy out of my life. I don't think he would necessarily get violent with you , but because of your isolation I expect that his verbal (and other emotional ) abuse will get much worse. If you remain exposed to it, it will erode your self confidence at a time when you need it badly, in order to make a new life for yourself.

Have you  considered relocating or at least making plans to do so?

[reallyME]

Dawning,

Again, what I read from you, upset me greatly.  YOU didn't upset me, but your way of reasoning things that need not be reasoned in a positive light (my view), did upset me.  I will explain WHY below.  This is only MY OPINION and MY REACTION, so take or leave whatever applies...just please consider what I'm saying here.

Since you said my comments were valuable, I'm going to share some more of them with you, but I'm going to share by showing you your comments and asking you to read what we have been reading from you and then to really think about some things.

Ok, as a lady that I mentor often says, these things DO NOT COMPUTE...and, the Bible, which is my main Guidebook, says, "Do not become friends quickly with an angry man."

Ok, sooooooooooooooooooooooooo...The first thing you said was that you thought you were trying to build some sort of positive relationship with this man.

And what is even worse, is that I thought we were building a positive relationship. 

And then you seem to start wanting to EXCUSE HIS BAD BEHAVIORS:

The annoying parts of it were manageable or so I thought. 

Ok, next, this is where the water eventually becomes muddy for me as the thread continues... You are seeing annoying things in this relationship, trying to tolerate them, realizing you made some bad choices.........that part makes sense...

When I expressed discomfort yesterday with his lack of physical affection, he said that my weight gain was a big part of it and, if I had listened to his displeasure about my weight gain a year ago, I would have done something about it by now but, because I don't listen or care, I have brought this on myself.

Now you tell us that his coming and going is complicating  your goals, as though you don't want the guy there

but his coming and going as he pleases is wreaking havoc on my trying to build a life for myself here

Here you are wanting to get him out yet remain FRIENDS?  (Which seems pleasant, until I read the next parts of what you write.)

I just don't know how I am going to get him out of here amicably, perhaps remaining friends.

This man is going to react in ANGER when you tell him your boundaries...never a good thing! RED FLAG

him to start a commotion that will upset the peace and quiet that the landlady insisted upon when I signed the lease.

Now I detect a hint of downright FEAR from you

It is almost like I want to be out of here when he does come back.

And yet some part of you seems to believe that you need to make peace with this frightening, violating man, who, from the following statement, is subjecting you to either feeling INVISIBLE or VERBAL ABUSE

But, me being me, I want to be here to try and work things out amicably even though our relationship is quite clearly on the rocks and I, at least, need a break from his constant indifference at one end and verbal lashings at the other. 

WHAT THE )(*^#(_@&%_(#@&$#@+_&%_#@&_%@?  How do you go from stating:

1.) The relationship isn't working
2.) I feel afraid and want to be out of here
3.) This man is violating my goals and not going to respect my boundary of privacy

to THIS:

Then, I told him that we simply have to get along somehow for the next three days.

I suppose this brings me some comfort to know you haven't really had much contact, but how do you fear someone that much and still have ANY CONTACT???

We haven't talked much but that is better than what it has been.

Why do you feel you need to HANDLE any time with this person?  Is he your husband?  A relative? Someone that gives something positive into your life?

Three more days I can handle.  It is nothing to the last 2 months.

Dawning, I'm concerned for you...that you mght not really be hearing your own self-talk.  You really need to listen to your red flags and OBEY THEM.  Please stop trying to justify having this man in your life.  Why do you even WANT a relationship with someone that, moments before this, you were terrified about him coming back to your house?  None of this is adding up, so please start asking yourself some tough questions and make a decision of SELF-CARE here, before you lose your identity, your boundaries are dessecrated, and you find yourself in a mess you can't get out of easily or at all.

[Ami]

Dear Dawning,
  I agree with Laura. The guy sounds bad all around.I would take the situation seriously about getting rid of him.  So sorry that it turned out so badly, Sunny.                      Love  Ami

PS   I am waiting to hear what happens .((((((((((((((((((((((Dawning))))))))))))))))))

[reallyME]

Well, Dawning, I don't want you to feel like I'm saying i don't trust your judgement...it is more that I feel YOU are not listening to your own judgement of the situation.  God created us with very useful brains and consciences...it would really benefit us if we learned to listen the first time we hear "DANGER"...and get OUT then, rather than trying to make things work out or change the other person.

In this case, I'm speaking from experience of a situation in the past, where, the first time X told her husband "GET HER OUT OF HERE, IT IS NOT WORKING OUT" (regarding me staying at their house), it would have been a GREAT IDEA for me to have told them I overheard it, asked them to take me to the airport or somehow for me to have gotten "outta dodge" with my dignity intact.

Instead, nooooooooooo, I sat there thinking "We are best friends, right?  We'll be able to reason through the problem whatever it is.  We are both ministers, Christians...we should be able to find the root of this thing and come to some sort of compromise or understanding." Guess what, I ended up after many weeks, losing ME, because I stayed and believed we could work it out.  Dysfunctional families have NOT LEARNED THE SKILL OF NEGOTIATION, COMPROMISE, COOPERATION and, in most cases, COMMUNICATION.  Let us STOP TRYING TO INSIST THAT DYSFUNCTIONAL AND TOXIC PEOPLE are able to associate with us like HEALTHY, BALANCED, NORMAL-MINDED people, all for the sake of wanting to be able to tell others that we "worked things out."

As someone once told me, "wake up and smell the cherry PITS"

Am praying you will listen and maybe even HEED my words here, cause I wouldn't wish what I just came out of, on ANYONE!
~Laura

[Hopalong]

Dawning,
Once he's out, I think maybe a fruitful area to study is why you yearn for affection from this person, given how he behaves.

I think that's where the disconnect is, for me.

Stay safe, usher him out of there, and I hope you'll let go of your tend-a-friendship fantasies about him.

He sounds destructive, toxic and incredibly unhealthy for you.

(Nice men aren't against the rules for you. Really.)

(((((Dawning))))

hugs
Hops

[towrite]

Hey Dawning - welcome back to the States. Sorry it has to start on such a negative note. I had first-hand experience with having to oust someone from my house. A friend was a police officer and she told me what to do. I ordered the woman to pack up and leave (she had not paid rent in 3 mos.), then, with my police friend on the line, I called the police on another line . My friend told me the exact phrase to use when the police officer got there - sorry I can't remember the words right now, but the gist of it was she was under a legal, verbal warning never to come on my property again. It worked. Do you have someone you can ask about that? I think forewarning your landlady is a good idea 'cuz it will beat him to it.

Good luck.

towrite

[Dawning]

Hopalong, thank you as always for your comments, which really reasonated in the last post.  "Usher" is the perfect word...he won't even know what hit him and, even if he gets a whiff of it, he'll be surprised at the least with the grace of being ushered out as opposed to the grotesque ways he says others have treated him.   

As for the caring comments received since last night, I'll take those into serious consideration if has figured out a way to try and prolong his stay here after Saturday.  I doubt he will, though, since my flabby self is apparently getting on his nerves as much as he is getting on mine.  And, with his friend full-well knowing the plan and in attendance on Saturday, it is a kind of insurance for me.  I am 99% sure he will NOT let his male friend down.  And I am 99% sure that he wants to be in a new environment.   

Either way, I'll let you know.

If we can keep the conversation to a minimum and talk only about nature and the chirping of bird sounds, the next three days might be the best we ever had - ironically.    <rolling eyes>

The problem will likely be later on down the road if he wants back *in.*  Maybe I can just stay at my current weight to prevent that.     But right now, I can see only as far as mid-January and joining some kind of 12 step program (they didn't have those in the country where I used to live).

Thank you to everyone who cares for me and is concerned for me/all of us on this board.
Though I have may never meet you face-to-face, you are all in my thoughts when I lay my head down to sleep and I am always feeling/wishing/praying for our happiness and safety.

((((((((((Hugs)))))))))

Dawning

[Hopalong]

That's great you'll have your male friend there as a buffer and backup, Dawning...

Just heading you off at the pass, but as to this problem:

The problem will likely be later on down the road if he wants back *in.*

The answer would be uncomplicated, if you haven't maintained a relationship with him and you are clear on how to set and hold boundaries with someone you don't want in your life. The answer:

"No."

If that seems imponderable, how about signing up for an assertiveness training workshop? They really are awesome, positive experiences. A nice place to make new friends, too.

xo
Hops

[reallyME]

Forgive me if I'm not "getting" this at all, Dawning, but again, I think I read that you were almost relieved that this man seems to be moving on and wanting to attach in some way to this male friend of his...sooooooooooooooooooo, I start breathing a sigh of relief, thinking that you are at last making the BREAK from this toxic dude...but nope, then again, I read this:

If we can keep the conversation to a minimum and talk only about nature and the chirping of bird sounds, the next three days might be the best we ever had - ironically.    <rolling eyes>

Which IS it, Dawning?  Are you ditching the dude or still trying to make "nice" with him.  You really seem confused to me and it might be a good idea for you to talk to someone in person who is trained in matters of codependency and relationship imbalances.

I have to agree with the person on this list who suggested that you figure out why you tend to want to be with these toxic types of people.  My guess is that it has something to do with your past...maybe trauma or family issues...I don't know, but you seriously would benefit from seeking some advice from a person who is trained in these things.

Again, my opinion, but I still see way too much back n forth going on with you and this man.  Either he is OUT or he is IN...unless he suddenly became safe from the last time we all gave you advice to LET HIM GOOOOOOOOOOO!  you are not married to him, he is a verbal abuser.  WHY ARE YOU STILL TALKING TO HIM EVEN ABOUT THE WEATHER, BIRDS, ANYTHING?

Please someone, if I'm off course in what I'm saying or sensing here, LET ME KNOW...I just am getting a bit frustrated at the whole thing, the more I read, so I guess I better not offer more advice.

~Laura

[Dawning]

Dear reallyMe,

I have my own way of doing things.  I assume you have your own way as well.  I sense and appreciate your concern for my life.  Let me say more directly what has happened since my first post albeit it in a perhaps abrupt manner but I am not good w/message boards as a predominantly social tool (as opposed to tools and aid for specific concerns and support):

1.  He left early in the morning yesterday with no note.  That was the breaking point for me and, with the benefit of this board, was able to write it all down, a method I have used since a young age to get clear on things.  What I wrote totaled a whopping 4,000 words...way over what could be posted here but just writing it helped.  My first post on this thread ended up as less of a history than a summation of where I was *at* right then and there.

2.  An hour or so after posting, he returned.  I told him (not ASKED HIM) when he was planning on leaving.  He said sometime this weekend.  I said, "good...when (our mutual friend) comes for lunch on Saturday, you can leave with him and everybody's happy.  In the meantime, we are going to have to get along because not doing so is wreaking havoc on my life.  I also want a financial contribution from you in order for your to stay." 

3.  As of last night, we kept our distance from each other but we made pleasant conversation this morning.  I felt like I had removed an enormous pressure from my life.  He handed over a sufficient amount of cash this morning.  We ate lunch together.   I went shopping and he went somewhere.

4.  If he tries to weasal out of the plan and does not leave with his friend, I'll take it to the next level - getting more people involved to force him out if need be.

This is MY way of doing things.  Again, I appreciate your concern.  I don't deny and have never denied that I have codependeny issues.   I am trying to gain access to a 12 step group right now as we speak.  I do not deny that I have experienced trauma and a serious lack of affection/attention or concern from my family members and that this familiarity is what drives me towards people with hidden agendas who are manipulative or indifferent and don't have the courage to say what they are truly feeling or thinking.   All of this would be, as hops said, fruitful for me to explore - on my own without him.

I'm opting to usher him out gracefully over a period of several days as opposed to kicking him out in a fury with the police involved AT THIS POINT.  As I said, I will touch base with this thread after Saturday with a follow-up,  and reread some of the harsher options presented if necessary.  For all options and comments, I remain truly grateful.


Take care,
Dawning.