Author Topic: Dear Changing  (Read 7048 times)

IsabellaRose

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Dear Changing
« on: November 24, 2007, 11:50:42 AM »
We endeavor to show love and support and to share our insights and experience- this is a unique resource and I have found it to be of immeasurable help in my journey. We are all imperfect, especially me, and it is extremely easy to find fault with one's self and others, especially with one's thoughts. Everyone has surprising thoughts that may never be acted upon. It is really wonderful to have a place with loving generous wise people to share those things which cannot always be understood by people who have not had the same experiences, without fear of being misunderstood. There are many fine resources and a lot of great information available on this unique process works so well, and how we give each other support. I hope to read your story soon.

Love,

Changing
-----------------------------------------

I can understand giving support and encouraging one another.  I was directed to this board from visiting another site.  Support, validation, empathy, compassion are all important..... but so is TOUGH LOVE.  And when someone says something completely inappropriate, hostile, dangerous and is at risk of harming themselves or others, it is our duty to come together in community and point it out.

Laura mentioned several times throughout her post that her daughter was pregnant and she wanted to physcially HURT HER ....BADLY....

This is not acceptable in any circumstance would you not agree? ((Hugs)), You go girl, You're wonderful, It will get better etc. are not appropriate responses to someone wanting to beat her daughters head in.  I was waiting patiently for several days to see if someone, anyone on this board would have the courage to point out the error in thinking.  Since no one did, i stepped up to the plate.  My objective was not to critize Laura, but offer critiscm about her morbid thoughts and advise her to seek out counselling/therapy IMMEDIATELY since it is obvious she has issues managing anger.


Thank you.

Ami

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Re: Dear Changing
« Reply #1 on: November 24, 2007, 11:57:53 AM »
I want to address the point that thoughts don't mean that the person WILL do anything. Thoughts and actions are two different things.
 We can express all kinds of thoughts here.I have wanted to kill my M(and other people's M's) with my marble coffee table.
  I think that Laura expressing wanting to  hurt her D(pregnant or not) does not mean that she will.
  I think that you are confusing the difference between thoughts and actions. That is how I see it,anyway.      Ami
No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.        Eleanor Roosevelt

Most of our problems come from losing contact with our instincts,with the age old wisdom stored within us.
   Carl Jung

JanetLG

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Re: Dear Changing
« Reply #2 on: November 24, 2007, 12:37:54 PM »
Isabella Rose,

Please try to understand that most of the people on this forum have 'had the courage' in the past to point out lots of things - such as...they've been abused as children, or they've been raped, or they've got an N-crazy mother/husband/partner or whatever (to the medical profession, the police, psychological counsellors, and so on). The outcome of being that courageous has often been that they have been ridiculed, or ignored, or imprisoned, etc. It is not lack of courage now that makes people not speak out, on all kinds of threads, not just the one that you refer to. It is experience. Please don't try to suggest that you are the only courageous one here. People have all kinds of problems, and we are all working through them as best we can. We do not 'have a duty' here to do anything at all other than listen to people unburden themselves, after they have had the misfortune to be the victims of N's, and HELP IF WE CAN.

If your objective was not  to criticise Laura, but 'to offer criticism about her morbid thoughts', then you did it very badly, IMO. It didn't read like that to me.

Changing, IMO, is one of the most caring people on this forum, who is supportive of  everyone! She offered that support to you, too. Perhaps you'd like to respond to that?

As Changing and Ami say, saying something and acting on it are two extremely different things.

Have you ever seen the film 'Bambi'? At one point in it, Bambi's rabbit friend, Thumper, is very tactless, and so Thumper's mother tells him 'If you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all'.

Words of wisdom from a children's cartoon.


Janet

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Re: Dear Changing
« Reply #3 on: November 24, 2007, 12:59:41 PM »
Isabella:

I think you may have had a point, somewhere.... but you never really came through with it, did you?  



Feelings aren't right or wrong they just are.

I also don't think being pregnant gives a woman the right to treat people like crap.



That esp goes for smart assed teenagers, living under their parents roof refusing to take a word of advice.  

If she's as big a girl as she keeps saying she is.... she can get a job and move out on her own where her mama won't be tempted to offer advice.  That way she won't have to keep flinging the advice back into her mama's face, KWIM?  

Is it your intention to stick around and judge boardmember's thoughts, when they're angry and venting?  

If so... let me know how that works out for ya.






Hopalong

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Re: Dear Changing
« Reply #4 on: November 24, 2007, 01:33:22 PM »
Quote
when someone says something completely inappropriate, hostile, dangerous and is at risk of harming themselves or others, it is our duty to come together in community and point it out

Isabella, are you feeling righteous? How can we "come together" with someone we don't know?

I would like it if you would tell your OWN story. That is really the best way to begin in a forum like this.
Not coming on board unregistered, slinging judgement and condemnation. It's dramatic, but we're not blind.
We all get to know each other and learn each other's voices and make our own decisions about what's drama
and what's not.

We have different voices here and express ourselves in a lot of different ways.

Laura was feeling extremely hurt. No point judging hurt. We feel the way we feel.
So she vented aggressively. I sincerely doubt she's made for the hospital with a cleaver.

Until you have shared your own issues, it's helpful to not introduce yourself
by making a billboard of someone else's, imo.

How about taking the focus off Laura and putting it on Isabella Rose?

Hopalong
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."

BonesMS

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Re: Dear Changing
« Reply #5 on: November 24, 2007, 01:41:15 PM »
If I may offer a comment or two....

My sense is that Dr. Grossman monitors this Message Board to ensure that it is a safe place for all of us.  If anything dangerous should be posted (i.e. threats of violence toward someone else), then Dr. Grossman would have a duty to warn under Tarasoff.  I'm not licensed yet and, at the same time, I'm also bound by Tarasoff where I work.

Just my thoughts.

Bones
Back Off Bug-A-Loo!

changing

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Re: Dear Changing
« Reply #6 on: November 24, 2007, 02:18:12 PM »
Hi Isabella-

This board cannot be all things to all people. We need to keep the dialogue here at the intended level, of sincere and supportive laypersons giving support and sharing experiences that may be of help to ourselves and to others. Analysis and diagnosis is properly left to professionals in an appropriate setting, as are interventions of a more dramatic sort. We provide important service and support to each other here, though, that cannot be found anywhere else, I believe, and so we make our best effort to do what we do here in an appropriate manner. To attempt to act as professional in a clinical manner and provide any sort of analysis or diagnosis could be harmful, and seems more than a bit ridiculous to me. I am simply not trained to make a judgement about someone over the internet! What we have have here does not compete with professional care- we are mutually beneficial, like diet and exercise, both with important functions integral to health.

As I said, I am not a mental health professional, nor do I claim to be. I can offer whatever support and information that I have to give here, as well as sharing my story-sometimes it does not fit the situation, or is simply wrong, and the recipient is not compelled to nor under any obligation to answer my post or ponder my suggestions- they can simply compost what does not fit!!  This may well be true of your initial offerings as well- some may fit to some and not to others. The person seeking support may compost anyone's posts as they see fit, including and especially mine. The object here is to help each other the best that we can in the manner that is appropriate here, and it works! I cannot take the stance that I am somehow all-knowing and capable of appropriately judging my friends here and dispense criticism and judgements as to their mental state or make any sort of diagnosis- that might well indicate a pathology of my own which could not be properly addressed here, but might require ongoing professional treatment. Criticism off -the- cuff from amateurs is something that one can get in abundance anywhere, is often quite worthless, and may be exceedingly harmful in its intent and effect. So whatever posts you may make could never be taken as professional prescriptions, but could be composted at will, without malice by its intended recipient. And you are free to do the same of course to any posts that you find inappropriate(especially with my posts!)

As per the post from me that you refer to, I asked about your story and your experiences, that might well give another point of view. As we are not psychiatrists here, and could not properly provide analysis and medication, etc., in this setting, our role is by definition limited. Yet this role is uniquely important to many of us who find the freedom to express our own feelings, support and kindness here invaluable. Please share your own feelings about your personal experiences, if you are ready, and remember that we are not here to judge and correct you- that is someone else's job! So feel free to share your own unique life experience- you need not take the burden of diagnosis and intervention upon yourself, and in fact, that is best left to professionals. And compost this post if it does not fit!!!! We will all do the same on this board!!!! Your sharing is the key- it is in this that we distinguish ourselves, and provide a unique and loving service.

As for any diagnosing or prognosticating on any significant level- that is for Dr. Grossman and his peers to provide! So you can relax and focus your energies on areas of your own life that could benefit from support and sharing- there is no pressing need to correct each other here (you can read about how the Board functions as well as other helpful information elsewhere on this site- we do not replace professional counseling).Please share your story and experiences if you wish. And please compost this post if it doesn't fit!!

Love,

Changing
« Last Edit: November 24, 2007, 02:26:09 PM by changing »

IsabellaRose

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Re: Dear Changing
« Reply #7 on: November 24, 2007, 05:12:50 PM »
You would like to know my story?  Here it is:

I am the oldest daughter of 3.  My N mother has had 2 miserable marriages. I have only ADMITTED that my mother is a N this last 3 years . Previously I just thought I was a bad daughter and this was NORMAL mother/daughter angst! She was/is manipulative, controlling, hot-tempered, vain...a classic narcissist...My parents divorced when I was 8. My N-mom remarried when I was 12.  The entire time they dated, they constantly fought. When she got engaged, my sister and I begged her not to marry him. But my grandmother told me to shut my mouth b/c I would leave home in a few years and " do you really want to leave your mother all alone?"...you know what's coming....the next yrs of my life were a living hell until i finally had enough money saved to move out!

From the time i was 12-20, every Saturday was spent cleaning my mother's castle from top to bottom. Now that i think about it, i cannot remember WHERE she was during these times..,.but it certainly wasn't with her sleeves rolled up scrubbing away with us.

Noooooooooooo....not the queen dame. In the beginning, she was always PERCHED above us, coming up behind us with her white glove makign sure we dusted and cleaned to her "satisfaction". By the time I was 15, her methods had been drilled into me, such that she happily left to get her hair and nails done.

Whats worse, is that both she and my stepfather took a sick twisted pleasure in not only assigning chores, but making them as UNPLEASANT as possible. Floors had to be washed - but NO MOPS....hands and knees only. Dishes had to be washed....but NO DISHWASHER. Everything had to be washed by hand. So the dishwasher was brand spanking NEW 10 yrs after it was purchased. When i left home, i caught Nmom using the DW and putting pots in it... and she smirked when i commented as to WHY i could not use it all those years. NO RUBBER GLOVES - my mother insisted these were VAIN. Only "queens" and "princesses" used them and so my skin was constantly dry and itching from the dishwater and harsh chemicals.  Then she would scold me for having excema (only "dirty people" had excema).


My father was not really involved in my life after the divorce.  My sister and I really didn't want to visit him.  My mother would force us to visit him and say "you must see him. he is your father"...then just before she would drop us off she would say "make sure he doesn't molest you" in this whiney sing-song voice.  He never did or would lay a hand on us (i know this now) but as a child I was always terrified of him whenever he would give me a hug or kiss.  My mother claims it was all out of "concern" for us and now she even denies saying any of it and tells me that her greatest regret was "encouraging" our relationship with him...rofl

She has a knack for taking ANY situation and twisting it around so  you are at fault and you end up apoligizing for making HER feel bad. She has NEVER ONCE apologized for anything to anyone ever. If she does say sorry, its in the most slimey most ingenious, "i'm sorry, you feel like that...i'm sorry you forced me to do x"...puke!  

My entire life i have never felt worthy enough or that she really loved me....  The crazy thing was, when I was in my mother's good graces, she made me feel like a million dollars. But if I ever did anything to make her lose face in public (always so consumed with how things LOOKED) - watch out! Her wrath was swift and severe. She could harbor a grudge for months and years on end.  

I was so enmeshed with my Nmother that I was the one who sat around that table with her....for years. It wasn't so much (for me) to talk about other family members negatively, it seemed more like self-preservation. I always thought she was trying to figure out LIFE...and it took me a lonnnngggg time to come to grips with her venom and not wishing others well. It was like 'connecting the dots' for me. Evil words, evil wishes, pidgeon-holing,.....catching the patterns over time. There was a lot of what I call 'Christian Voodoo' in it....(referring to all the right words and morality and Scripture etc thrown in as 'cover') This enmeshment with her started so early, I can't sort how it came to be. I ALWAYS felt the need to 'confess', 'report', be accountable for everything and everyone in the family. Ugh. I never felt like I had a 'wicked heart' (though accused of it when I, too, would rage out of proportion at times. It always mystified me, too!) I NEVER wished anyone ill, I just wanted to 'understand' and because of her isolating me from LIFE (religion, politics, parochial schools, no friends, no music, censored books), she was my only source of 'information'. Ugh....I feel horrible in participating in this Evil before God opened my eyes. (Little did she know that all she 'taught' me...the RightThings for the WrongReasons....ultimately worked against her. The God I came to know and love was not the same one she tooted her horn about.)

If anyone critized my mother my job was to immediately came to her defence! The few times I stepped out of line and stood up to her I was immediately shot down and told to "shut your big fat mouth...when you open your mouth your brains fall out...you don't have a heart...you are killing me...you will be sorry...you have your father's bad genes....you are so stupid, selfish, negative...." the list went on and on as I was stripped naked. So I rarely stepped out of line.  I always sympathized with her "pain", being alone, wondering out loud with her why every relationship she ever had ended in conflict.

When I got married the only thing I asked from my mother was for her to sing on my wedding day (she used to be a professional singer).  She said she would and practised 3 months.  At the reception, my mother never sang...she told me it was because "your f*n MIL told me there wasn't enough time for the song and she canceled me". I was so upset at my MIL!  My MIL denyed it and said it was my mother who changed her mind at the last minute and cancelled the song.  Then mother switched her tune and said, she couldn't sing b/c the DJ didn't que up her music properly....a few yrs later she admitted that she didn't want to sing....but did she EVER aplogize to my MIL?  NOoooooooooooooooooooooo!
                                                                    
The next few years were peaceful as both my mother and father could be in the same room for family functions. It was the only time my sister and I ever felt "normal" like our husband's families.  Then my father did the UNFORGIVABLE SIN....he retired early and started giving me and my sister money, gifts etc. My mother was furious and said he was bribing us for his love and we had to choose either him or her (another classic N - pathological ENVY)!  WHen we refused she did it for us...she told me i was no longer her mother and she was sorry she ever had children and wasted her life on us!  

Then she went on her pity-party about how all she ever did was sacrifice, take us to our piano lessons, clean up our shitty diapers...and this is how we repay her???  She DEMANDS RESPECT...and if we won't give it to her, then she's sick and tired of do-do-doing for everyone and getting nothing in return (She only does things with strings attached you see..... she'll scratch my back.... then i must massage her from head to toe)

I finally had enough and I told her what I really though of her brand of "mothering". I cited example after example of how she hurt and used us our entire lives, how she wasn't there for me or my children when I needed her the most.  Enraged, she flew off (on her broomstick) and refused to speak to me...for speaking to her in a "tone" and not being respectful enough (i guess the TRUTH is not respectful ...only her lies and fantasies).  After that she stopped speaking to me for several months.

During this time I found myself pregnant again. I was so tormented because my mother held onto her grudge even after i apologized for "stepping out of line" over and over and over again. She refused to see me at Christmas, any of my children's birthdays, snubbed me at my own baby shower (b/c my MIL was hosting and my N mother would not step foot inside her home), refused to call me when my baby was born (b/c she was not the FIRST to know), .

Then when my baby was only 3 wks old, I needed surgery.I was so terrified I tried to make peace with my mother before surgery. She was still cold/indifferent so i didn't even bother telling her i was going to have an operation.

3 days later of not eating, not sleeping, i called my mother up and begged her to forgive me.  She told me that I would be fine after the operation. Then in the car my mother said it was too bad that it took something like this for me to see how much i needed a mother - how much i needed HER!  "Now you see what the natural order of things is" she told me "the only thing I must revere MORE than her is....GOD...." (wow! That's the pedestal she thinks she deserves to be on).  I couldn't believe it. My husband was somewhere low on the list . So were my children.  She confessed that the operation was an answer to her prayers (sick!) Then my mother told me that i brought everything upon myself with my negative thinking and from being so stressed from not having her in my life. (She really does think highly of herself, no????)


After my operation, when i called my mother,  to tell her i would make a full recovery, she said, "That's nice"..."now you are probably going to go back to your old ways". Click.  She refused to spend Christmas with us. Ignores her grandchildren. Returns all letters. Refuses to answer phone calls.

Lately, i found out she has been spreading venomous lies about me and my husband to distant relatives (ones i only see every 5-10 yrs). When she was confronted about her gossip, she snapped that it was all TRUE.... when pressed further she claimed that yes, she did exaggerate, but that we deserved it and her actions were fully justified.  Now she is denying ever having spread such hate in the first place (which i don't believe since she keeps her mental rolladex updated on every thing anyone has ever told her).

Ami

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Re: Dear Changing
« Reply #8 on: November 24, 2007, 05:28:05 PM »
Dear Isabella,
  I want to say that I am not involved in your issues with Laura. I am not "taking sides in any way" I simply feel very profoundly for how you have suffered..  My heart aches for you-----so much pain. I am speechless. I am so,very sorry.         Love   Ami

((((((((((Isabella)))))))))))))
No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.        Eleanor Roosevelt

Most of our problems come from losing contact with our instincts,with the age old wisdom stored within us.
   Carl Jung

reallyME

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Re: to Ami, to isabella
« Reply #9 on: November 24, 2007, 05:44:08 PM »
 Ami,

I'm not sure why you do this, but this is the 2nd time it's happened.  On one hand you seem to be coming to my defense and validating me, and then, you read what my attacker posts about her own life, and suddenly you jump and say that you are not "involved" in their issues with me...you did this before with jodi and dove too, remember?  I'm not sure what the deal is here, but why would you defend me and then in the next breath, in order to sympathize with isabella, reassure her that you are not involved in the issues with her and me.  please explain if you will. 
Quote


I want to address the point that thoughts don't mean that the person WILL do anything. Thoughts and actions are two different things.
 We can express all kinds of thoughts here.I have wanted to kill my M(and other people's M's) with my marble coffee table.
  I think that Laura expressing wanting to  hurt her D(pregnant or not) does not mean that she will.
  I think that you are confusing the difference between thoughts and actions. That is how I see it,anyway.      Ami
Dear Isabella,
  I want to say that I am not involved in your issues with Laura. I am not "taking sides in any way" I simply feel very profoundly for how you have suffered..  My heart aches for you-----so much pain. I am speechless. I am so,very sorry.         Love   Ami

((((((((((Isabella)))))))))))))

Isabella, my post to you follows.

Laura


changing

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Re: Dear Changing
« Reply #10 on: November 24, 2007, 05:49:54 PM »
Hi Isabella-

It is a shame that your parents, blessed with children who only want to love and be loved, have thrown such a precious opportuniy away- and hurt their innocent daughter in the process. Adding to that a stepfather who may have made a positive difference, instead causing more pain to defenseles youngsters. They all deserve to be clapped in irons and made to scrub your floors for fifty years to life on their knees- it is not the chores,  so much as the intentional way that they were used to hurt you that is the real crime here.

Almost equally terrible is the pain inflicted upon you as an adult. It has been hard for me to see that this dynamic in my life is the shame of my N parents, and not mine. I would never even tell anyone about my fractured family, and I guess that I seemed normal enough that no one asked. But I still felt the shame and pain, and did not learn how to think differently about myself and my own rights as an individual. When I opened up here, I was met with acceptance and support, and it truly changed my life and thought patterns.

Now I am in the process of undoing so much that I did wrong, especially an abusive marriage that I thought that I could fix by dint of sheer will. I am so much happier now, and feel that I have just started living again, and am excited about my future. I love what you said about telling the truth to your mother, and her flying off on her broomstick!!! :lol: It worked just like a magic spell!

When I spoke truth to my family and husband, they disappeared as well- its's a good thing to know for self- preservation- they require that the family secret be kept at all costs, including and especially your life and sanity!If you want them to skulk away, simply speak the truth out loud! What a wonderful thing!

You sound as if you have come a long way all on your own,and I hope that you find support and help here that will make the journey easier!!!How cool is it that you have lsweet ittle ones to lavish your love and wisdom on, and do not have to waste yourself on a fruitless pursuit to make your mother OK. You can concentrate on having a happy and healthy home and in pursuing your purpose in life!!! Maybe experience the mothering that was cruelly withheld from you in your own caring love for your babies!Thank you for sharing and best wishes to you and your loved ones. (((((Isabella)))))

Love,

Changing




reallyME

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Re: Dear Changing
« Reply #11 on: November 24, 2007, 06:27:23 PM »
Isabella,

It appears that you and I have very similar backgrounds, although with different names and faces involved.  My heart breaks for you, as I too, have walked in similar shoes.  You have been through so much that a child never should have had to endure.  I am sorry that you had such callous, evil, manipulative, controllers who called themselves "parents" raise you.

I'd like to share with you the similar things that I've been through, but I do not want you to feel that I am minimizing your situation in any way, shape or form, nor am I wanting to turn things back on to "me."  I want you to know that i understand a lot of what you have shared with us because I actually lived it.

Isabella,

I'm the oldest daughter of 3 as well.  My mother was married twice...the first time to a man who refused to work because he was busy trying to become the next Elvis (grandiose).  The second was OCD, OCPD and eventually paranoid/schizophrenic. My mother divorced when I was 3, but dad had visiting rights in which he possibly molested me and/or brother.  Remarried when I was 7 and I determined that this man was NOT going to replace my "dream daddy." (first dad who spoiled me rotten to make up for the divorce).

I was abused from the time I was about 10 by my step-dad.  my nose was finally broken when he flung me into the wall after I tried to defend myself from his fists.  i went to live with my grandma at age 16.

I could reallllllllllllly relate to the whole "white glove" thing, as my step father used white gloves and white lint-free rags to test our dusting of the windowsills (where the sun shone in and always would remain dusty).  I spent my childhood literally having to SNEAK food and sneak out of the house to play when my step-dad was not around.  

I had a grandfather and step-father standing over me when I'd do dishes, saying "oh quit complaining.  you waste more time complaining than if you just did them."  of course, once again, like in your situation, WE hAD A DISHWASHER THAT I WAS NOT ALLOWED TO USE!

Along with these chores, my brother and I had to pick up step-father's cigarette butts and chestnuts that stained our skin and we could not miss 1 of them or we had to go back out and do it over again.  same with raking leaves, sweeping driveway, etc.  i learned to HATE WORK WITH A PASSION!  I still struggle with it today.

I was not forced to see my father after the divorces, but I was the one in the family who was a Christian and wanted to walk in love with people, so I stuck by both of them.  unfortunately it was paranoid/schiz, ocd, ocpd step dad who tried to get me to LIE to my mother about him being in her neighborhood (she had an order of protection that said he was not to be in the area cause he was a threat to her and my siblings)...the last time I had with stepdad, was when he was supposed to pick up my daughters and me and take us out to eat stacks of hamburgers with him...I got angry and said "how COULD you insist that I lie to mom."  he said "it's not really lying.  you just don't TELL her."  I told him "I will NEVER lie for you or anyone else.  Goodbye!"  the next time I saw him was in a casket.

Quote
She has a knack for taking ANY situation and twisting it around so  you are at fault and you end up apoligizing for making HER feel bad. She has NEVER ONCE apologized for anything to anyone ever. If she does say sorry, its in the most slimey most ingenious, "i'm sorry, you feel like that...i'm sorry you forced me to do x"...puke!  


here, you described my daughter that i've been telling about.  ANy time she is nasty she will say "well, if you would have done what I told you to, I wouldn't HAVE to yell at you."  (as though SHE is the parent and I am her child)

As a child, i was doted on pretty much, because I was the one who was mentally 'slow" and had temper tantrums and did poorly in school and socially.  i was fed food, crooned to, and i soon learned how to get what i wanted from my mother and grandmother.  At tHAT time, I was very very manipulative.

The words i despise even to this day are "YOU SHOULD BE ASHAMED OF YOURSELF"  or "I'm gonna KILL YOU!"  My mother raised me with those threats and accusations.  I have since learned that I will NOT say anything to my child that i am not prepared to carry out.  there is a story in the bible about a guy who made a vow to kill the first thing that crossed his path if God would turn things in his favor...he ended up murdering his own daughter.  words are POWERFUL.  Let's not say anything we wouldn't DO.

I ran into awful stuff at my wedding too, between my controlling foster mother, mother and husband.  It was quite a fiasco, so I can relate to that as well!
                                                                    
My mother would say 'DAMN YOU" frequently when she'd get upset at things my brother and I did.  I do NOT tell my children that I wish they were never born!  EVER.


Quote
Then she went on her pity-party about how all she ever did was sacrifice, take us to our piano lessons, clean up our shitty diapers...

I am guilty of replicating this behavior.  My own mother played the 'after all I did for you" card with us.  Unfortunately that is a hard thing to combat.  As a parent, one really feels that her children "owe" her at least a semblance of respect, because INDEED, a mother does a lot for her children.

I do not do things with strings attached, although i've been accused of it by ND.

When my ND told me how she felt about past things where I screwed up, i attentively listened and considered her feelings. I did not DENY, MAKE EXCUSES FOR, BLAME when she shared with me.  It was her openness that caused me to really work on me.

i have 4 daughters...first one lived a life of promiscuity that I didn't find out the extent of till recently, since I spent a lot of time dealing with psychological junk in myself with counselors, etc.  18 yr old, pregnant and you know her situation, 13 year old is doing fine but struggles socially a bit, 8 year old tries to be the joker of the family and keep everyone's attention on her.

My mother hasn't been with me for ANY type of surgeries.  She lives far away in another state.  she has often gone to visit my half-sister who lives not far from me, but NEVEr come here because we are poor and don't live the way she is accustomed to...she's a lawyer and my husband is too much like her 2nd husband...ocd

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3 days later of not eating, not sleeping, i called my mother up and begged her to forgive me.  She told me that I would be fine after the operation. Then in the car my mother said it was too bad that it took something like this for me to see how much i needed a mother - how much i needed HER!  "Now you see what the natural order of things is" she told me "the only thing I must revere MORE than her is....GOD...." (wow! That's the pedestal she thinks she deserves to be on).  I couldn't believe it. My husband was somewhere low on the list . So were my children.  She confessed that the operation was an answer to her prayers (sick!) Then my mother told me that i brought everything upon myself with my negative thinking and from being so stressed from not having her in my life. (She really does think highly of herself, no????)


Ok, Isabella, this is just WRONG WRONG WRONG!  I have not done this to my children at all, except in jest when we were all playing around saying how 'wonderful" we are to each other.  As far as telling ANY of my daughters that I was glad they got sick or wounded and that they deserved it, HOW HORRID!  I am the person who rushes them to the hospital with serious illnesses when their father says "oh, they'll be fine.  the doctor's just gonna tell you it's _________" (he tries to diagnose people himself based on something he read or heard or saw on tv).  i almost DIED when he told me "oh you'll be fine" and I turned out to be severely dehydrated with mastitis that was going into a staph infection.  I'm not the one who treats my children badly, especially when they are ill or hurt.  No way.

I will NOT refuse to spend time with my children unless there are abuses going on toward me when i'm with them.  For instance, if I visit my daughter's future mother in law and she verbally abuses me, I will distance myself and then I will choose to possibly opt OUT of a future invitation...that is called setting boundaries and it's healthy.


I do NOT lie.  My ND has lied since she could talk, and then, even when a room full of people HEAR what she just said, she will vehemently swear that we are all nuts, she never said that, she didn't mean it, or she was just joking.

Maybe now you will see that my background is similar to yours and that I understand WHY you'd be appalled at someone for thinking mean thoughts and possibly carrying them out.  The thing is, those were only feelings that i did NOT express to her nor did I ACT upon them.  i do my best to have peace in my household.  It is her moodswings and undealt with issues that make life hard.  I am already dealing with mine and have been for years.

Again, i'm so sorry you had that sort of past and/or present.  I forgive you for misunderstanding my situation and maybe being triggered by it.  i applaud you for standing up to me as you probaby want to do with N mother, but I again will assure you that, although i have problems which i admitted readily here, I am not your Nmother nor am I AN N mother in any way, shape or form.

Blessya, Isabella
All God's best to you,
~Laura
 

Ami

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Re: Dear Changing
« Reply #12 on: November 24, 2007, 08:14:23 PM »
Dear Laura,
  Your heart goes out to Isabella --right? Why did you think that I was "betraying' you when my heart did,also.?    Ami
No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.        Eleanor Roosevelt

Most of our problems come from losing contact with our instincts,with the age old wisdom stored within us.
   Carl Jung

Overcomer

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Re: Dear Changing
« Reply #13 on: November 24, 2007, 08:35:19 PM »
When I read Isabella's story, I again felt as if I was her.  Her mom is very similar to mine and it invokes great fury in me FOR HER.  This is not a "take sides" situation.  I can understand why Isabella felt strong emotions at Laura's post.  I can also understand why Laura was appalled at the reprimand.  Ami, you are within your rights to empathize with Isabella AND love and honor Laura.  A lof of us have horrible nmoms.  Sometimes it even makes Izzie uncomfortable when we bash our moms because she has issues with her daughter.  And now that Laura has issues with her daughter we can unfortunately look at her as another "bad" mom because we have dealt with bad moms our whole life.  It is almost like triangulation only with more than three people playing the game.........

We all have been wounded.  We all have our issues.  Some of us have more than one N.  Probably because if we have an N mom we attract N type people.  But just like the Autism Spectrum Disorder, I will call this Narcissism Spectrum Disorder.  Different levels of N.  Different categories.  Different strengths.  Different weaknesses.  Different genders.  Different places on our family tree or friendships.....
Kelly

"The Best Way Out is Through........and try laughing at yourself"

Ami

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Re: Dear Changing
« Reply #14 on: November 24, 2007, 09:05:23 PM »
Thank you ,Kelly. I thought long and hard before I posted ,but I saw it the way that you do. I was not "dissing' Laura (in my mind) at all by having empathy for Isabella.
  I know that we can be sensitive(I put myself top on this list). So, I can see how Laura  might  have felt snubbed,but I did not mean to "disrespect' her in any way.
  I hope that she sees it like that. I really do.      Love Ami
No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.        Eleanor Roosevelt

Most of our problems come from losing contact with our instincts,with the age old wisdom stored within us.
   Carl Jung