Author Topic: My inquiry is sincere Pls tell me what life is like without belief in God/heaven  (Read 16342 times)

mudpuppy

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Bella,

 I specifically said no faith can be proved as a fact. My contention is with your statement that there is 'no evidence'. Simply restating that there is 'no evidence' is not responsive to my assertion that there is. It's tautalogical. I happen to see a huge abundance of evidence to support belief in God and it's the basis of my faith.

 I, and many other Christians including essentially the entire Catholic Church, happen to believe that a universe bllions of years old that sprang forth in a burst of energy and in which a series of species appeared over time is perfectly compatible with both science's discoveries (if not some of its theories) and the biblical account, so I'm at a loss as to how introducing the ID debate relates to my assertion that certain posts in this thread amounted to direspecting and misstating the basis for other people's beliefs.
  But since you brought it up, courts in the US have at various times declared certain races to be properly classified as property or that Jim Crow laws were perfectly acceptable so I do not consider court declarations as to what is fact to be definitive. In fact in the case you cite most leading ID proponents objected to and disagreed with what the school board was trying to do. The school board was attempting to force the teaching of a mixture of young earth creationism and some conventional ID alongside Darwinian evolution. No ID proponents that I know of advocate it being taught as fact. Most would just settle for Darwinism to be taught as only a theory with a considerable number of inherent problems that even many Darwinists acknowledge. Unfortunately it is Darwinsim which is usually presented as incontrovertible fact.
  But to return to my point; the basis for belief in God was ridiculed, possibly inadvertantly, as without evidence, as an emotional crutch based on feeling good and as (by implication) close mindedness. While there are no doubt a few people who have come to faith in those manners none of those statements is accurate for most people.

mud
  

Hopalong

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TT...I missed the funny bit, or it sailed over my head.

But thank you, and Lollie, for understanding me!

And TT, I want to say I envy your faith. At times (such as this, which has been one of the hardest weeks of my life) I truly miss the childhood personal trust I placed in God and Jesus. Sometimes I really do miss it.

But now...they're just not very real to me. I can't tell you the number of times when I was suffering and literally prayed the formulaic prayer people are taught (the "come into my heart" thing) and stared at the TV waiting for something to happen...never did. It's as though it just falls into an emptiness in me.

I guess the reason agnosticism, most of the time, feels like peace to me, is that I've given up arguing with the emptiness and have accepted it for what it is, or seems to be. I no longer perceive a giant "eye" looking, with interest or even detached awareness, at my life.

I pretty much feel alone, and the only thing that changes that for me is human love...
(the moment I typed that, my daughter called..)

  :)
Hops
« Last Edit: January 27, 2008, 10:08:07 AM by Hopalong »
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."

towrite

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Hi towrite,

I also fired God once.  It was right after my boys died.  Time passed.  My mind cleared a little.  I was angry at Him for allowing my boys to die in a senseless accident.  The irony is that had I not been a believer, the accident would have happened anyway, or at least one is left to assume that.  Then who would I have blamed?  It rains on the just and the unjust.  The same sunshine that hardens clay, softens butter.  And please forgive me, I don't mean to cover you up with cliches.  At some point, I  recognized that in the interim I had been very lonely for the One in whose presence I had once delighted.

In thinking through it all I began to understand that by default another (I guess I could use the word you used, administrator) had stepped into the place I once freely gave to God.  I was left to figure out who or what the 'other' was.   I guess when it was all said and done, being the hyper-relational person that I am, I just didn't want to try to have a relationship with an 'other' in which the relationship wasn't personal/.  In the almost twenty years previous, I had relished in a very personal relationship with God.  Our spirits had mingled freely.  I missed that. 

Church history, even before Constantine and the counsel of Nicea, is riddled with power mongers and posers.  But the players in those dramas don't define or dethrone God, the Devine then or now.

I just wanted you to know that I relate to your firing of God.  Our outcomes are different, I returned with an even deeper faith. 

 Philippians 2:12-13

"Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. "

I wouldn't include the scripture above except that probably having been churched, you are familiar with it already.

I hope I've not been insensitive to you. You see, I can discuss spirituality, religions, customs, and such without feeling as if either of us might leave the discussion contaminated by the other. 

tt

Edit in:  I hold to no denominational persuasion.  But I'm not a lone ranger either.  I have simply learned that religion within the church community is a given.  I try to skip over the 'religion' and learn about and worship God. 



Dear tt - no, I didn't feel you were being insensitive to me. It fills me to be able to discuss these things without one being "contaminated" by the other. The beliefs of someone whom I like and admire enrich me; it is only their demands which impoverish my spirit.

Kate
"An unexamined life is a wasted life."
                                  Socrates
Time wounds all heels.

Certain Hope

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Hi towrite,

I also fired God once.  It was right after my boys died.  Time passed.  My mind cleared a little.  I was angry at Him for allowing my boys to die in a senseless accident.  The irony is that had I not been a believer, the accident would have happened anyway, or at least one is left to assume that.  Then who would I have blamed?  It rains on the just and the unjust.  The same sunshine that hardens clay, softens butter.  And please forgive me, I don't mean to cover you up with cliches.  At some point, I  recognized that in the interim I had been very lonely for the One in whose presence I had once delighted.

In thinking through it all I began to understand that by default another (I guess I could use the word you used, administrator) had stepped into the place I once freely gave to God.  I was left to figure out who or what the 'other' was.   I guess when it was all said and done, being the hyper-relational person that I am, I just didn't want to try to have a relationship with an 'other' in which the relationship wasn't personal/.  In the almost twenty years previous, I had relished in a very personal relationship with God.  Our spirits had mingled freely.  I missed that. 

Church history, even before Constantine and the counsel of Nicea, is riddled with power mongers and posers.  But the players in those dramas don't define or dethrone God, the Devine then or now.

I just wanted you to know that I relate to your firing of God.  Our outcomes are different, I returned with an even deeper faith. 

 Philippians 2:12-13

"Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. "

I wouldn't include the scripture above except that probably having been churched, you are familiar with it already.

I hope I've not been insensitive to you. You see, I can discuss spirituality, religions, customs, and such without feeling as if either of us might leave the discussion contaminated by the other. 

tt

Edit in:  I hold to no denominational persuasion.  But I'm not a lone ranger either.  I have simply learned that religion within the church community is a given.  I try to skip over the 'religion' and learn about and worship God. 



Dear tt - no, I didn't feel you were being insensitive to me. It fills me to be able to discuss these things without one being "contaminated" by the other. The beliefs of someone whom I like and admire enrich me; it is only their demands which impoverish my spirit.

Kate

Dear tt,

Your post here is so lovely... thank you for having freely shared yourself in this way.

Dear Kate,

Your post is also lovely... and so true to me, as well -
   "The beliefs of someone whom I like and admire enrich me; it is only their demands which impoverish my spirit."

Thank you both.

With love,
Carolyn

towrite

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Thank you, Carolyn, for your love and gentleness and honesty.

Kate
"An unexamined life is a wasted life."
                                  Socrates
Time wounds all heels.

Hopalong

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What a wonderful thread.
TT, you are so spot-bang-on that it's astonishing. I love what you said about defining your own belief.
I do have one sentence that can work for me, though I normally avoid the G-word. "If god is love and only love, then I could say I believe in god." I don't very often though, because usually others instantly believe I'm talking about christianity, and I'm not. I guess theologically (in very unsophisticated terms) I can say I believe in universal salvation. I do not believe in hell, in being saved or unsaved. If god is love and only love, then all human beings (and in my brain, animals too) are in a spiritual state of grace and utterly accepted by what love is. That doesn't mean they/we all KNOW it, but that's what I believe is real. Meanwhile, we do wars and such...and craziness. But that has nothing to do with love, which I believe exists the way oxygen does. Love is the Big Beautiful Mystery to me.

Bella,
Agnosticism has liberated and empowered me too. I love the beauty and clarity of the way you describe it. And how you see faith as a different subject from belief. I feel faith too, when I tune in to love and mystery. I thank you for reminding me of this.

Carolyn,
I love you and feel loved by you. So for me, you are walking talking evidence of the goodness that can be at the heart of Christianity. You're a psalm, dear. I thank you again for being always so generous with me. I love learning from you.

love to all,
Hops
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."

Hermes

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Dear Bella:

Hope you do not mind me quoting you here, because you express exactly what I wanted, and want, to say about myself. 

""Being agnostic after being raised catholic has brought  me a few gifts. One of them is the gift of a strong sense of responsibility for my life, and for my decisions.  I used to feel that someone else else would carry me forth, and I could leave all the hard decisions to something else. It made a victim out of me, and it made me hold back from really thinking things through, and accepting the full capacity of my power over my life. The transition was scary, and took too much time. But I am grateful to have this sense, now. My life is better for it too.

Oddly, I have better relationship with faith than when i was religious. I believe in the power of faith. I'm not exactly sure how it works, but it just does. For whatever the reason, life looks out for itself. Butfaith seems to only work when I take charge, visualize, stay positve and focussed.

Being agnostic empowered me, i feel, but I would much rather have the answers. i know i am not alone in this, and so the human race will keep searching. I am glad they will, that brings me comfort too."

I really do not like much talking about the topic, because my opinion is my own, and people seem to be unable to respect it. 

Like you Bella, I was brought up Catholic, and educated in a convent boarding school, where all I/we heard morning noon and night was fundamentalist religion, imposed whether you liked it or not.  The god we heard about was a punitive individual.  The day was as follows: (the religious schedule I mean):  up at 6.30 to Mass (I learnt how to sleep while kneeling, yes!), prayers then before breakfast, more of same after breakfast, more of same before each class, back into the church around 5 p.m. and then at 9 at night more prayers (half an hour or more).   We also had three day silent retreats, with lots of preaching. 
Then there were the religious study classes, most of which was learnt off by heart.  After all, by hook or by crook, you had to pass the Diocesan exams. 

I swore after I got out of there that never again would anyone preach to me or tell me what to believe.  If they had only known that they were producing quite the contrary of their intended purpose:  it was a school for future agnostics. 

Anyhow, that is just a slice of my life I tend not to think too much about, the voicelessness of it all.  Aside from the religious barracking, you were never allowed to have an opinion on anything, or to speak up for yourself if wrongly accused, or even to laugh.   Luckily I was made of fairly stern stuff, even then, but I wonder about other pupils whose lives would have been blighted by that kind of "education".

All the best
Hermes

Hopalong

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Mud,
You too, are a Christian who inspires me. I know if we were 3D friends that I would smack into the walls of your beliefs sometimes. (Hey, we could talk politics?  :mrgreen:). But I also know that your friendship and conversation would be something I would actively seek, value, and count myself very fortunate to have. You'd be a person I'd love to sit by a woodstove with and consider the deep quiet spaces of life. Mrs. Mud too, what a radiant lady she must be. Some folks who've undergone conversion seem to gain such strength, without losing compassion, and I think you're one of those. I imagine you as sincere in prayer, nonmanipulative, and watching Fox News  :lol: very honorable. If we were in the same community and shook hands on a deal, I would not hesitate for a moment to relax and know my trust is well founded.

I really like you, Mud. Your decency is obvious and I think I imagine you as the "good brother" I always wished for.

You said something here that was helpful to me:
Quote
Isn't agnostic open mindedness open to the possibility of truth? When I was agnostic I recognized that I did not know whether there was a God or whether absolute truth existed. I didn't assume those questions were by definition unanswerable only that I didn't know the answers.

For me, and that's not to say this is a correct definition, my own agnosticism is not about the possibility of truth. It's only about the possibility or impossibility of god. I think truth is inexpressible on this planet. Facts are something we can approximate in language, but for me, absolute truth...never. So where I retreat is when people base a belief in absolute truth on a text. My agnosticism is about god. I don't worry about the bible because I don't believe it is divine. A wonderful, fascinating and inspiring book, with cruelty and love and hope and pathos and transcendence in it. Poetry and story and inspiration and sad litany. But not holiness. I never find holiness or absolute truth on paper.

I do find love everywhere. And if god is love and only love (nothing else, no other story or creed), then...etc.

Thanks for listening. You make my brain stretch.

hugs
Hops
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."

Certain Hope

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((((((((((Hops)))))))))) I've missed you... and I love you, too. Thank you for always building me up at just the right time.
You're the bestest.

xoox
Carolyn

mudpuppy

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Hops,

 Thanks for the kind words.
 
 I consider truth and God inseperable, not only because Jesus proclaimed himself to be truth incarnate but also philisophically. If there is a transcendant and infinite God who is the creator of all things then He would seem by definition to be truth. The only other possibility would be for some falsity to exist in him which would mean He is not transcendant.

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My agnosticism is about god. I don't worry about the bible because I don't believe it is divine.

I have yet to meet an agnostic who does believe the bible is divine, for obvious reasons.  :P
One doesn't come to God by first believing He inspired the bible. One responds to the unction of God and finally understands in one's heart He exists and then what is divine and what is not becomes clear.

Quote
Some folks who've undergone conversion seem to gain such strength, without losing compassion, and I think you're one of those. 


 I believe all folks who have undergone true conversion have gained both strength and compassion. Anyone who hasn't gained both through their encounter with God has not truly been converted; their heart has not been transformed and they are just in an elaborate and pointless masquerade.

 I would like to apologize to Hermes and Bella if I sounded a little defensive earlier. Most Christians are fairly use to the insinuation that we must either suspend our reason, our intellect or both to believe. I don't think either of you meant that but it can be a little tempting to read between the lines after years of hearing it blatantly stated by people who do mean it.

Quote
Being agnostic empowered me, i feel, but I would much rather have the answers.


That would seem to be the one thing no one needs to worry about. Everyone has their questions answered in the end don't they?

mud

Ami

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When I came to God, I got there 85% by reason and logic(purely intellectual processes). The LAST 15% was a leap of faith.It is still a leap of faith,now. Maybe,it sounds "bad" to say this, but since we cannot 'see" the spiritual world, we will always have to take some  of it on 'faith"
  Maybe, that is WHAT "faith" is--- the leap.
  I hope I have not offended anyone. This is how *I* see it, for now, anyway.                   Ami

 
No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.        Eleanor Roosevelt

Most of our problems come from losing contact with our instincts,with the age old wisdom stored within us.
   Carl Jung

Hopalong

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Makes sense, Mud...
Quote
a transcendant and infinite God who is the creator of all things ... would seem by definition to be truth.

I think this dialogue has helped me get more clear. I do not know if a god would be the creator of all things, I think I've departed from that concern (it's too big for this brain)... I'm just stuck with "if god is love and only love" -- that seems like the only creed for me. And for me, it's enough.

I respect and understand your beliefs, Mud, and you make them beautiful.

Hops
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."

Hopalong

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Me too, Bella.
It reminds me of my neighborhood.
But I've come to love my neighbors anyway.
Their good hearts bring them out to the street every time the ambulance has come for Mom.
And when I invited them to her 97th birthday party at the last minute, they all came.
It was lovely.

love,
Hops
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."

Overcomer

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Last night I helped serve communion.  I was holding one goblet of wine and one of grape juice.  I would say-the blood of Christ shed for you-and they would dip their wafer in one of the juices.  A man responded to what I said with a-thank you Jesus.  The tears started rolling down my face and I could not wipe them because both hands were holding a glass.  I could barely utter the words when the next person came up.  It was the first time I understood communion after being raised as a Christian.
Kelly

"The Best Way Out is Through........and try laughing at yourself"

Ami

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WOW Kelly.
 That is really, really big. I have had God in the head ,for many,many years. Only recently, have I gotten Him ,in the heart.It is a totally different experience to "feel" Him, with the heart,isn't it?              Love   Ami
No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.        Eleanor Roosevelt

Most of our problems come from losing contact with our instincts,with the age old wisdom stored within us.
   Carl Jung