to Ami and others in the fray: have you stopped to ask "why?"

[reallyME]

As I've been sitting here, reading all the posts back n forth on this same issue between Ami and Janet, I keep seeing a vision:

Ami and Janet at first are in a scuffle, then I come along and end up in the mix, finally here I am, a safe distance from the scuffle still goin on, and I'm asking myself..."why?"

Now, I am hoping Dr G will leave this post up, because I think I raise an important point.  Why is anyone still going on about this?

Ami, others, what is it that, by still going on in this, that you are trying to accomplish?

Ami, are you trying to MAKE people accept or like you or change their opinions of you?  Just like with anyone, you cannot force someone to think you are wonderful, that your words are great, that  you are an honest, likeable human being. YOu just can't...no matter how many times you post to try and get them to "see it my way" it's not going to happen.

Janet, as you try to recap other posts either by you others, are you hoping that a light goes on with Ami, to remember how it all "really happened?"  Again, nobody can make anyone "see" things.

It's just occurred to me that some people have been falling into the trap of codependency over this issue.  This isn't about going into it all again.  It's about the "why" you are bothering to even talk about it.  None of you can get the other person to see things they way you do.  Trying to, in my opinion, is a type of codependent behavior, probably being reenacted from situations when your N's didn't validate you.

Just an observation that you can comment on or take or leave.

(if this thread is closed, Dr G. I'll understand.  I really just wanted to give a new perspective on things to help maybe get people to look at the whole purpose of it all going on)



~Laura

[JanetLG]

Laura,

I gave up ages ago trying to get Ami to see things any other than 'her way'.

If people ask me a question to clarify something, I will answer them to clear it up.

Why have you started this thread? Isn't this another case of  'still going on about this'? How is this thread different, then?

I am not looking for validation. I am looking for honesty.


Janet

[reallyME]

Why have I started this thread?  I guess maybe I'm guilty of doing the same things others are doing...wanting people to see things as "I" do.

How I see them is, LET IT GO ALREADY!  Let every person own his/her behaviors, beliefs, etc.  Ami is who Ami is.  I think she has some good insights on things.  When it gets to a point that you don't agree with her, let her have the right to believe what she wants.

Janet, you are a very forthright person who doesn't play games.  I am a lot like that too.  When I couldn't seem to see things the way you were trying to tell me they were, I ultimately, dropped the situation and did not direct anything more, regarding that toward you.

Am I saying that I handled things the right way and others are not?  Yes, at this point, I think it's best to just let the whole thing DIE.  If you don't like someone else and they don't like you, all the convo in pms or even on the public board, is not going to change it.  Only prayer and time might.

Again, I will say that I follow the Bible's way of handling conflict as much as possible: 

If you have a problem with someone:

1.)  Go directly to that person, one on one
2.)  If they do not receive you, take one other person with them
3.)  If they still do not receive you and your correction, bring that person before the group
4.)  If they still are refusing to either drop it or make things right, have them depart

Maybe this sounds harsh, but it WILL stop the problems that have been seen in this group for sure.

If someone continues to go on about a topic, even after people have asked it to stop, that is called Obsession.

~Laura

[Certain Hope]

Dear Laura,

I've been wondering, too... about others... and also asking myself, when I feel a strong pull to say something that I really know is futile.

Sometimes it feels to me like baiting... like digging a pit for an enemy and trying to entice him to fall in. That sort of scenario reminds me very much of past-NPD's and causes me to shudder.

Sometimes it feels to me like simple immaturity - needing to get the last word.

Sometimes it feels to me like a single-minded obsession that's so tied into ancient personal issues it's virtually inextricable... the same old battle being re-fought ad nauseum.

Those are just my feelings about it... and I'm content to explore those further for myself rather than act them out here on the board. Content because there's no other option and I don't ever again want to engage in fruitless endeavors.

As for my thoughts...
well, I think that people are bothered by these incidents on the board to the extent that they've made an emotional investment here.
For someone who views this place as somewhere to hang out in her spare time and toss around a few ideas = no biggie...
but for one who has felt the deepest emotional connection of a lifetime here... upheavals can surely be devastating.

Because we're all/each at different places in our own individual healing processes, I see no reason to expect a uniform response to this sort of thing...
rather it all seems perfectly natural and normal to me, regardless of how distressing I may find it.

Thanks for asking.

Carolyn

[reallyME]

Carolyn,  you raised a very good point I had not truly considered:

well, I think that people are bothered by these incidents on the board to the extent that they've made an emotional investment here.

Yes, you are right, I really do not emotionally invest here.  I feel I'd be back in the same situations of my past if I allowed that much "in" again, as far as the negative words that occur on this board.  It's not worth it to me to be that vulnerable again.

Thank you for pointing that out to me about myself.

~Laura

[JanetLG]

Laura,

"If someone continues to go on about a topic, even after people have asked it to stop, that is called Obsession."

I do hope you will bear this in mind, the next time someone asks you to stop talking about your kind of religion.


Janet

[Certain Hope]

Dear Laura,

You're welcome. I'm saddened by this though... for myself, I mean... because I don't want to become so *objective* about the board and its members that I lose all sense of connectedness.

With recent events, I've been sorely reminded of how I felt to be so objectified by my parents and by my NPD ex...  after a time, I didn't even realize what I was missing... but once you've seen the light re: emotional intimacy, it's very difficult to return to the realm of hard, cold facts, I think.

The sort of vulnerability which leads to enmeshment is surely to be guarded against... there are spots within us which only God Himself can fill, I know.
And yet... I don't want to live with iron fences that have no gates. I don't want to intellectualize all this.

When some people talk about making a connection with others, I feel that they are just looking for someone who will agree with them 100%... never questioning and never holding them accountable. That's all I ever knew... and now I know it's a lie from the pit. I guess they really only want a clone of themselves, so that they'll not have to change and learn to get along in the real world. But I see that some of the most intimate connections I've made have been with people who are so very different from myself... yet they're willing to at least try to see me for who I am and respect my ways, and I theirs... and I'm thankful for that.

Sorry for the blather... feeling a bit emotional today.

Carolyn

[CB123]

It's not worth it to me to be that vulnerable again.

This would make such a great topic for conversation at this point.  (Because it's what I am in the middle of right now, in my own life????? )

The damned thing is: yes, we get hurt when we are vulnerable.  But if we don't allow ourselves to be vulnerable, we become cardboard cutouts of who we truly are.  Have we truly finished healing if being a cardboard cutout is good enough for the rest of our lives.

I don't think that, in spite of our willingness to be vulnerable in the past, that we ever truly trusted.  I think that the very forces that made us look the other way when we were abused also made us suspicious and wary of other people--and that we didnt truly trust.  I suspect that we put our neck on the guillotine, suspecting that we would get it chopped off, but doing it anyway.

For myself--I was one of those people who emotionally invested a lot in the board.  I couldnt possibly have healed to the point that I did without doing so.  Dr. G makes the point that it is knowing that there is someone in your corner, someone who believes in you (oftentimes a therapist), that gives you the emotional toehold allowing growth.  For me, this board was that toehold.

I don't remember whether or not Dr G has ever gone into what happens when the trusted therapist "betrays" us.  They all do--not because they are N's or abusive, but because they can't be everything we want them to be.  At some point, they have to cut us loose and it never feels good when they do (any therapist who doesnt is going to do more damage in the long run). 

Same thing with here.  I dont think there is any way in the world to love deeply without investing ourselves emotionally.  That doesnt mean not having good boundaries.  It means that to be deeply touched, you have to risk.  And, human beings being who they are, they are going to disappoint.  And we are going to hurt. 

So, yes, I am hurt by what has transpired on this board--both in recent times and in past times when I was the target.  But I have also been tremendously helped and my life would not be the same if I had not trusted enough to allow that. 

To anyone who is stepping back from the board because it feels unsafe: good for you.  You should step back.  It is unsafe right now.  But don't let this shut you down.  There is a whole beautiful life out there and we are going to grab it with both hands.  This is just part of the process.

Much love,
CB

[Certain Hope]

Double standards... some use their own vulnerability as a shield, all the while wielding the vulnerability/frailties of others as a weapon. That's what NPD did and it still makes me freeze.

On edit... this is because they demand absolute perfection from others while easily and continually excusing themselves for not behaving as responsible adults...
requiring the ideal mirror to reflect them, then deliberately cracking that mirror and leaving a trail of devastation in their wake. Life's mission? Make others just as miserable as they are so that they never have to grow up.

[reallyME]

CB, I loved reading your post.  Thank you.

Certain Hope:

When some people talk about making a connection with others, I feel that they are just looking for someone who will agree with them 100%... never questioning and never holding them accountable. That's all I ever knew... and now I know it's a lie from the pit. I guess they really only want a clone of themselves, so that they'll not have to change and learn to get along in the real world

I agree with statement here for sure.

As far as me saying I am not "invested" or "vulnerable" I didn't mean I don't "feel" with people.  I mean that is person A has an issue with person B, it does not control or destine my day.  I don't really think it's healthy to let anything encompass your day like that.


Years ago, computers didn't even exist, so the only way we talked was in the real world.  We never would have necessarily met each other without this computer.  That is good and bad altogether, depending how you look at it.  At any rate, as I said, the scuffles on here do not shape my day any more than a bad email would determine how I feel the rest of the week.

~Laura
~Laura

[Leah]

Dear Laura,

I truly do respect what you are saying aboout you, but, remember, we are us, and we are all unique individual people
each with a different heart and soul.

That's a big difference.

Love, Leah

[Certain Hope]

Laura,

I absolutely agree with you about not allowing someone else's dislike to encompass/ruin my day... that'd be like saying that my value as a human being is dependent on someone else's perception of me. For one thing, I don't expect to "like" everyone I encounter, so I think it'd be pretty arrogant and prideful of me to assume that everyone should think I'm fantastic... lol. That's a sort of fairy-tale thinking, because, of course... I'm not fantastic, only me... a work in progress.

But there's a big difference between a person not liking me and someone setting out to assassinate my character because I disagree with her/him.
When a person establishes a pattern of viewing any disagreement as a personal attack, I will discontinue contact with that person.
When a person repeatedly substitutes falsehoods for the truth of the matter, I will counter those falsehoods.

None of the above will ruin my day or consume my life, but... such circumstances will surely give me pause before I leap with abandon into exposing myself again.

Carolyn

[reallyME]

When a person establishes a pattern of viewing any disagreement as a personal attack, I will discontinue contact with that person.

This is the stance I take as well, and is my entire point in bringing up this topic.  "letting it go" to me, is the same as n/c even if only for a while.

[lighter]

When a person establishes a pattern of viewing any disagreement as a personal attack, I will discontinue contact with that person.

This is the stance I take as well, and is my entire point in bringing up this topic.  "letting it go" to me, is the same as n/c even if only for a while.

I guess that depends on what you're letting go?


Is it the little mousey, munching on your housey?

Is it the little old (chronically) jaywalking, Granny, down the street?

Is it your favorite pair of jeans, held together by 64 in tact threads with a crotch repair the dry cleaner has finally refused to repair ONE MORE TIME?

Or is it a penicillin resistant viral infection that will go through the population, mutate and continue unchecked, if left go?

Just food for thought.

[reallyME]

Lighter, I enjoy your whimsical sense of humor.

I'm just wondering what good it does to keep a topic going or to harbor an offense.  I mean if someone wants to, more power to em.  I just don't have the energy for it nor the desire.

~Laura

p.S.  i think the roachies munching on my housey are as irritating as the mousies. Pray we can get rid of em soon...it costs to exterminate and as I've said a few times, we lack money in my family.