How old we are perceived

[Ellie]

I noticed in the thread regarding 'N Mother's Family' that the writer was treated the same as the children in the family gathering. I think I'm on to something here. This week I wrote my sister and asked at what age she perceives me to be. I asked this because a few years ago her teen daughters visited and bossed me around in an unbearable way. If I tried to buck them, they threatened to call their mommy and tell her I wasn't acting right to them. I was still a compliant in those days.

Anyway after much deliberation, my sister finally said she thinks of me as 24 years old. That explains a lot because I am 44! Also this week I confronted my mother with some issues and she held strong until I said 'mom, I'm 44 years old' and then she hung up on me.

Do you suppose a part of the N mentality is to refuse to view us as mature adults, no matter how grown up we are? Maybe that makes it easier to treat us as kids, even though kids deserve more respect than my family gives me.

My father will not call me by my name but refers to me as 'sis' or 'girl'. My mom does use my name, but both parents were livid when I was a teen and decided to call them 'mom' and 'dad' instead of 'mommy' and 'daddy'. To this day my dad refers to my mom to me as 'mommy' and my mom refers to my dad as 'daddy'. My older sister still calls them 'mommy' and 'daddy'. My niece/sister - child that my parents stole (forced adoption from my younger sister) who is now 17 also still calls them 'mommy' and 'daddy'.

I guess they feel they can justify the degrading, belittleing, lies, lack of communication, etc if they view us as little children. My older sister is the 'golden' one and she and my mom can sit for hours discussing anything in the world. My mother will only talk about little issues with me. She says I'm not yet old enough to know all the family issues. There's 2 years between us.

I have vivid memories of my mother refusing to let me talk with the adults at family gatherings when I was a child, but she continued this behavior when I was 25 and attending family reunions. If she caught me speaking with an aunt or uncle, she pried her way in, interrupted and said I was too young to know what I was talking about - I should go join the other kids, really embarrassing!

Of course, I also have issues with my parents telling me I need to give them my children to raise because I cannot possibly do it myself - my kids are now 9, 12, 14 and I am happily married. Our kids are very happy, stable, and do not have the issues I had growing up except they cannot stand my parents.

To clarify this whole writing, I have been very successful on my own and as a wife and mother. I'm the only one in the family to complete my bachelors degree. I have a wonderful job, my husband has a wonderful job, our kids get As and Bs and participate in lots of sports and activities. We have lots of friends and are just a happy family - except for my parents.

We are not exactly failures as my parents see us. Actually they do not say I'm a failure anymore - that refelected back to the days when I would not do things the way they demanded. Now they say I think I'm to good for them. I finally responded back to that and clarified that it was they who acted like they were too good for me and my family. They stick their nose in the air and expect us to read their minds and say things in code to my older sister so I do not know what they are talking about. It's just disgusting!!!!!

Can anyone relate to the still being treated like a kid issue?

[Jaded911]

Ellie, oh dear Ellie,

Yes hun you are onto something.  N just dread the thought of aging and mortality.  If your mother and your sister thought of you as a 44 yr old woman, they would have to think of their age.  Each day of your life is precious to you.  To a N, each day of your life signified a day they gave and gave to you and you were just so ungreatful.  Each day to a N is one day older they became.

If they had to view you as a 44yr old woman who had the right to be an independent person, this would mean that they had lost control of the little girl or young lady that you used to be.

As far as your nieces are concerned, um tell them to come and stay at aunt Mindy's house.  Aunt Mindy would beat their asses or stand their snarling faces in a corner until they could agree to act like young ladies.  If they couldnt act like young ladies, then I say they can act like animals at their own house.  The fact that your sister could and would tolerate their behavior tells alot about her character.

I swear your nieces sound just like Nelly Olsen from little house on the prairie.  Remember that girl Ellie??  Damn Nelly was always pickin on half pint in that show.  GRRRRR, I say no to Nelly and a big hug for half-pint.  LOL.

Ellie, by reading your posts, I gather that you are a very caring and compasionate person.  There is no shame in being that type of person.  So your mother hung up on you??  Big flippin deal!!  The fact that a mother hung up on her 44yr old daughter just goes to show that she acts like nothing more then a flippin child herself.  Heck, I hang up on my mom all the time.  That is after I tell her to get a reality check and when she finds it to call back.

[Ellie]

Jaded,
I love to read your responses. It makes my day! You are so right that my nieces are like Nellie Olsen. (I always saw myself as half-pint, I was real tiny then, and my sister was mean Nellie always lying and tattling on me to make her look good. N parents bought it all). Their dad is a minister and they think they are perfect! Have been home schooled and say 'yes mam' and 'no mam' till it makes you want to puke! They are little machines that preach at everyone! It's all a picture of perfection, but at 22, 20, and 18, none of them have left home, none have had a date, they do not go to college - one takes on-line classes to be a teacher in a christian school. Only the oldest has ever worked.
The part that kills me is when my mom calls, I assume she wants to hear about my children - the 'other' grandchildren'. But as soon as I start telling her about their lives - it's usually months between phone calls - she interrupts to tell me how much better my nieces are, or how much worse off they are depending on the subject. I told her last week I got lasik surgery done and finally see without glasses for the first time since 4th grade. She proceeded to tell me they had watched the procedure on TV, would not let me describe my experience, then went on to say my niece has such bad eyes, etc, etc. Next subject, her daughter/grand-daughter combo created a web site at 17. I told her my 14 year old created one at 12. She never heard me, just went on and on about my neice was so good! I work in software development, so she is always trying to prove how others are so much better than me. I finally yelled to get her attention and said - but aren't you proud of your grandson? She mumbled something I couldn't understand and went on to the next subject she could use to belittle me with.
I'm starting to get the hang of standing up for myself and it's actually quite fun. I bring up topics they refuse to discuss - I'm just too young to talk like that - and they clam up. As soon as I hit a touchy point, the communication ends. But I'm not  going to wait around for months for them to decide I've been punisehd enough before they will call again. I am going to call every week now just because I know they HATE talking to me! I stood my ground recently and they are in a tail spin at the moment. Also I found the most awesome father's day card - real cold and uncaring, a Shoebox greeting card that was perfect!
I've already warned my H that my dad will probaby call him soon to tell him he needs to get a handle on his wife, cause she's being a bad little girl. He used to tell exboyfriends they need to keep me in line. That is such a good line to give a N BF from a N father. But I can happily say my H is not N and completely understands their condition.
Once a BF punched my car windshield and broke it - my N dad said to the guy "I don't like seeing you get this angry, it could have been my daughter's face you hit, but then I know how she is and she probably would deserve it!". Wow, a loving dad.....

[Yuki]

Ellie, I'm so sorry your family treats you that way. It's so disrespectful and degredating. I don't even believe that (actual!) children should be talked down to.

YES! There is something to this!

For me, I feel like it's both about being treated as if I was younger AND about having my development stopped so that I COULDN'T grow up. What you said about your nieces really resonated with me. It sounds like they have had their emotional growth stunted so badly. I'm sorry that they act so horribly, but I can't help feeling sorry for them.

I'm in my mid 20s but I feel like I'm about 14. In terms of life experience and personal development, I may as well be 14. My mother halted my growth starting when I was around 8. As soon I started to have interests that differed from hers - BAM - she put her foot down hard. She punished me and treated me like a horrible child for wanting to do the normal things that kids do to develop their own identities. Clothes, music, make-up, boys, tv, movies, friends... all bad. She squashed me. It led to me having an emotional break down at the age of 10. I never really recovered from it. Afterwards, I just gave up on everything. I didn't even allow myself to want anything anymore, because I wouldn't have gotten it anyway, and she probably would have made me feel badly about myself for it.

My therapist says that my mother was always competing with me. She felt too threatened by me to allow me to be a woman. So she kept me as a child. That way, she always won.

For an example, when I was about 16 my mom and I were shopping for a formal dress for me. There was a strapless dress, but I said that I would never wear something like that (after years of my mother telling me that I was fat -- I thought I was way too fat for that dress and would make a fool or myself for wearing it -- not to mention that she'd always freaked out at me if I showed an interest in anything sexy or grown up). She replied by saying "well, I would wear it, because I'm more daring than you!" I just started crying. I was so confused. She always told me how shy and reserved I was and I hated it -- because she'd forced me to be that way! It hadn't even been about being daring or not. It had been because I thought I'd look ridiculous in that dress because I was too fat. And I knew that what she said wasn't even true - she wouldn't have worn it either. She wasn't the least bit daring. And she really was too fat for it too.

N just dread the thought of aging and mortality. If your mother and your sister thought of you as a 44 yr old woman, they would have to think of their age.

Oh yes, this is very true too.

I finally yelled to get her attention and said - but aren't you proud of your grandson? She mumbled something I couldn't understand and went on to the next subject she could use to belittle me with.

Good for you for saying something! Sounds like classic N behavior. Of course, if you're bringing up any topic, it's only so that she can talk about herself! From listening to my mother, I think that's the only way they even know how to have a conversation. It sounds like she might be competing with you like my mother does with me.

Yuki

[flower]

Hi Ellie, Glad you started this post. It is disgusting how your family treats you!

Can anyone relate to the still being treated like a kid issue?

 
 Sure can...

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Thanks so much for your insight and support.
 It aided my healing. Too much of my heart
was in this post to let it remain here for posterity on the web.
The post served its purpose and now it is time to
edit it or gently take it down.
 
To every thing there is a season, and a time
to every purpose under the heaven:  Ecclesiates 3:1

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[Ellie]

(((Yuki)))
(((Flower)))

Cyber hugs to both, and all who read this!

Trying to convince oneself that we are mature adults, no matter how much we are downtrodden is SO HARD! But I know there is hope at least at stopping this behavior in our own children. At my last visit with my therapist, she mentioned that it was amazing how I was able to raise my own children with possitive attitudes and a normal atmosphere. She treated my daughter for 2 years for ADHD and has visited with my other 2 during those visits. So she knows how they feel about themselves and our family at least at this point in their lives.

My response was "That's the easy part. I never really thought about HOW to treat them. I've always treated them the way I wanted to be treated when I was young."

When voices in my head tell me to treat them the way I was raised, my heart tells me to do it differently, and my heart wins. It becomes a battle within myself many times, and that is what drove me to therapy. But I refuse to have my children look at me with the sad eyes I know I grew up with. I want to see joy, love and acceptance of themselves, freedom to think and dream of whatever they want to become. And I spend time asking them if things are going ok, are they getting enough space to think independently, are they feeling respected. They know we have limits and they get grounded when they break the limits. But they realize why and we talk it over, even when they think they are too angry to talk. And I've learned that when they think they can convey the most anger in the world back at us, a tickle under the chin will always bring back the smile. When they think we've really ruined their life for whatever infraction has occurred, a trip to Dairy Queen can part deep, deep rivers of anger!

I have told my parents for over 5 years now that they would not like my children because they are exactly like the me I wanted to be. My parents have not seen my children except their school pictures in over 5 years. They refuse to visit us and we refuse to go to them just to be harrassed again.

I think the funniest thing is when my children tell me I'm old - weren't all of our mothers old? I have to giggle when they say that because I know my parents think I'm a little kid.  

[Emily]

"because they are like the me I wanted to be"

thanks Ellie, for putting your thoughts down that way...when I read them, it felt like a huge cloud had lifted.
my parents have been distant and critical of my kids for more than 20 years.  I guess I'm finally realizing that grandchildren are nothing special to them and I'm trying to accept that.  It was the same for me, why would g-kids be somehow different?  I'm so glad I haven't seen these "people" in a couple of years,...life is so much smoother.

[mighty mouse]

Hi All,

This is a good question about being seen as young. My NMom treats all of us like we don't have the brains we were born with.

Just until a couple of years ago, she would say stuff like "Did you tell them Thank You"? Or act like we couldn't survive without her.

I started joking that I was "running with scissors" and other such nonesense when I would interact with her to give her an inkling that we are NOT little kids anymore. Sheesh. She's an intelligent woman but I'm not sure she got the gist.

Now I think I'll go play with a plastic bag. I hope to hell I don't inadvertantly put it over my head and cease breathing LOL.

MM

[flower]

Hi everyone,
My hard drive died and I'm at the library using the web acess. I want to say goodbye. Thought I'd let you know I'm okay and don't know when I am coming back.
Love to you all,
flower

[October]

Hiya flower ((((((Hugs)))))) hope you get back soon.

This topic is a very interesting one.  I think you can tell what age you are supposed to be from the photos of you that your parents have around - if any.  Ns love photographs which prove what a happy family they have, and they display them around, but at the point when you start to grow up, or not play the game, the photos stop growing up too.

My parents now compensate for this by having grandchildren pictures around, because they show small people, who are compliant and not judgemental.  It is a long time since my picture was on the wall!!  I made them do it once after I made my ex leave, because I had a picture taken of just me and my little girl, and I framed it and gave it to them so they had no choice.  But it didn't stay on the wall for long.  It was my way of saying, this is my family and we are ok, but I think it was not what they wanted to see.

As for age, yes my mum still whispers in corners with my aunts and goes silent when I enter the room, and they still avoid telling me any 'grown up' stories, but if you ever do find out what they are saying, it is just as well.  It is all about who is dying, who is ill, who is behaving scandalously.  Petty, small minded gossip from people who know no better.  So I don't mind being left out of that.  The day I start to enjoy it I will know that I am finally turning into my mum.  

C

[sjkravill as guest]

Another topic I can relate to.

I am living home with my parents this sumer. I haven't lived with on any kind of long term basis for several years.

My parents do tend to treat me like a child. It sort of drills the message into my head that I am uncapeable of doing anyting right on my own.  I have major issues with making mistakes! As I have been trying to reflect on my marriage, I have realized that my husband treats me like a child too.

I think with N's this behavior puts them in a "god-like" authority position.  Then they can use you to think about how benevolant they are, and how needed they are by you because you are incapeable of doing anyting by yourself.  

Living at home, I am trying to respond in a way that doesn't encourage or reward their behavior.  For the first time I am really noticing a major invasion of my boundaries, and lots of little put-downs, etc.  I also want to behave like an adult, as to keep the peace while I am here.  I hate the thought that when I am with my parents I revert to this pre-teen feeling of disgust.  If nothing else, something is coming to my consciousness that was not really there before. I understand myself a little more.  I always thought they were blamelsess.  Anyone have any ideas?

Peace, sjkravill

[Patsy]

Hello Sy..

This is a great topic it has really got me thinking too.

I returned to the family house to help my father in 1990 for a year as he had a knee replacement and needed help. (major attack of compliance!!)
This was NOT a good decision.

His N behaviour was extreme and I ended up as a puppet in order to keep the peace. I had two small children who needed me and he wanted me to ignore them in favour of his needs.
One day I thought "what have I got to lose if I say no to his demands?".
So I did...!!! Well I did it very calmly and just said No..and that my children and my own life needed me. He nearly had a fit...but it was just that a temper tantrum. He never tried to kill me as I had always believed he would and it really helped me to know that all his bluff and blunder was just that...storms to frighten a child. And I was no longer a child but an accomplished adult. Well as these things go..of course he found ways to punish me. But  I gained strengh knowing that my worst fears were unrealised and set about creating some boundaries that worked for me.

I can tell you ..once you get the flavour of NO..in your mouth said to unreasonable demands..you want to taste it again and again.

woohoo..go me!!

Maybe that may help you Syk (sorry can't remember all your username)

Another interesting thing I still note though..is that I can be behaving totally adulty for years and then return home and within two days a black cloud descends on m head and I'm fighting again for tools to survive.

It would be nice to get to a place where my adult behaviour was consistant around my father. Too much to hope for? I wonder??