Changing Others

[teartracks]

Hi everyone,

Question:  Reduced to its simplest form, is trying to change others just a strong armed version of projection?

tt

[mudpuppy]

If a decent person trying to change the behavior of an evil one is projection, it's a type I can live with.
A better term for such an attempt might be brotherly love, mightn't it?

mud

[teartracks]

Thanks for your take bean. 

Mud, my next question was going to be, what is the best approach to changing the person with evil intentions toward us?  I know you've had some experience with this using the authority of the law, but outside of the law, how does one proceed effectively or should we go outside the law at all?

tt

[mudpuppy]

Don't think there is usually a way to change the person with evil intentions; only ways to change their overt behavior.
I don't think Ns are wholly irrational. If contact with a person results in more pain or loss of control than they can endure they will go away. The objective is to become a lump of kryptonite to these idiots who think they are Supermen. They'll go away unchanged internally but what does the kryptonite care as long as they go away? Whether this occurs through legal channels or social ones doesn't much matter I don't think.

mud

[Lupita]

Nobody can change nother person. A person can change unless is seeking the aproval of the other person for any reason.

[teartracks]

bean and Lupita,

I tend to agree that unless someone really wants to change and asks, it is useless to offer what we think may be good advice.   They have to be motivated to accept it and the one offering the advice must be aware that their advice may be worthless or  not be welcomed even when it was asked for.  On the other hand, my experience is that these same people will allow enabling on every hand especially if it is enablment in the way of material things or giving them enough affirmation that they think the balance scales tilt in their favor.   

I think Mud is saying that there are times when the only way to deal with N's is to get in their face and give them what for.  I've probably done that far too few times in my life.  I guess that makes me a wimp. 

Generally with people I know, I think I have offered advice too many times when it wasn't asked for and I think that makes me  a waster of personal time.  I think I've stumbled on my New Year's resolution.  Don't offer advice until it is asked for!

Mud,

Having not seen Superman for a few decades, I had to look up the meaning of kryptonite.  The Urban Dictionary had this definition.   

It says, Kryptonite is a rock that superman cant get close 2 cause it will start to take away his powers and slowly kill him.

Sounds a lot like NC with an insufferable N doesn't it?

tt

[Lupita]

It is called bhavior modification, andthere has to be an inner motivation, a reward to change the beharior. Fro wahles in Sea World, it is hunger, they keep the animals hungry and they give them fish to make them perform.
Woman use sex to get their man to do something they wnat to do, assumning they want that sex, or, grades if students care anough ofr grades, or fear of punishment etc. Otheriwse you cannot change any behavior other than yours.

[teartracks]

Lupita,

I'm hearing you!

tt

[Gaining Strength]

OK - some of you will find this off the wall but there is a theory that I am inclined to believe but which i have not had personal experience with yet.  The theory is that if I change my expectations of or attitude towards another then that person will change.

The first person I read who espoused this theory was Norman Vincent Peale. 

I really want to try this with my mother.  She took me and my brother's family to dinner last night and I caught myself being caustic and resentful and judgemental of her.  I made an effort to change my attitude with the belief that if I begin to treat her the way I want to be treated then i will begin to see a change. 

That's a theory anyway.

My father on the other hand I chose to stay away from.  He is definitely in the catagory of "Not worth the effort."

[teartracks]

Hi GS,

OK - some of you will find this off the wall but there is a theory that I am inclined to believe but which i have not had personal experience with yet.  The theory is that if I change my expectations of or attitude towards another then that person will change.

I wholeheartedly agree with you GS.  And as you expressed, it can be well worth the effort if there is anything worth salvaging in a relationship and good parent child relationships are so important.  I hope your effort with your mom is very rewarding and positive.

tt

[Lupita]

Hi TT. Just finished reading Nasty People by Carter. It says that you can change the behavior of others by your responses. For example, durg dealers sell drug because someone buys it. If they knew that nobody is going to buy it, they would not do it. Same way. If we give them the response that they are looking for, they will come for more. For example, those who like drama and we feed the drama, they will reapeat the behavior. If when they do a behavior we do not respond, they will eventually stop. He gives several examples. Many. Like the husband telling the woman "your college or our marriage" She is supposed to say, I wont choose, now what? But if she gets so scared and does not want to lose her marriage, she will say, no my king, you of course. But at the end she will have no husband and no college.

[reallyME]

Question:  Reduced to its simplest form, is trying to change others just a strong armed version of projection?

I personally don't think it is the same.

Projection is when the other person begins blaming you for faults that are not your faults, but actually theirs.  They punish you in some way for doing awful things that you never did, but that they did.  The begin treating you as though you were a sort of evil person that you never were, but that they actually are, deep within.

Basically, during projection, you feel like screaming out "noooooo, you're wrong...I don't LIE...That is YOU who LIES, not me!"

"No"  I'm not the one who treats people wrongly, YOU are."

(all the while realizing that it really is THEM who is doing the bad behaviors, NOT YOU, and yet, you gradually begin asking yourself "could she be right?  do I have a problem with lying?  What about that one time when I said I wasn't home cause I didn't want to be bothered...that was a lie, and the other time when I ____ ____          ________...wow, she's RIGHT, I AM A LIAR!)   Abusers have a way of making you really DOUBT yourself to a point that YOU DO NOT EVEN LIKE YOU.


Now, controlling means something a bit different.  Controlling someone means that you are forcing them to do what you want.  You have a way that you decide is THE WAY, and if the other person does not do it, you find ways to punish, guilt-trip, interrogate them.

Projection-  putting bad behavior onto someone (that isn't actually there, but instead is in yourself)
Control-  forcing someone to do/be what you want.  (generally because you feel out of control yourself)

[teartracks]

RM,

Makes sense.  Thanks for helping me reconcile these terms by pointing out clear distinctions between projection and controlling. 

So what is it when a person goes about trying to change others?.  To impose their way on others. 

tt

[changing]

Hi Teartracks-

It often seems that those who are the most miserable spend the most time trying to change others into versions of themselves- perhaps as a diversion from their own depression or to punish others who have found freedom and happiness...Some use politics or religion as proxies, and this can be the worst sort of all. This is the origin of the horrors of the Inquisition, the Pogroms, etc. Freedom of thought is essential to truth and justice in a person, family and society- the other way leads to a New Dark Ages.

If one wants to help another learn and achieve, that can be different, of course- giving a person a scholarship or an apprenticeship, a safe home to live in, etc- the change here is one of fulfilling a talent or dream- the idea is empowerment of the other, rather than enslavement . I like this kind of assistance to change very much! As a society and a world, we would reap so many benefits by providing educational opportunities for all children, and security for all people.

Love,

Changing

[reallyME]

Teartracks: So what is it when a person goes about trying to change others?.  To impose their way on others. 

That is what is known as "Laura having the upcoming fight of her life as she learns to conquer her issues, for this New Year's Resolution.


Yes, that is called control and it happens because of several reasons:

1.)  we do what we get "payback" from
2.)  we do what makes us feel an illusion of being powerful
3.)  we do what is habitual and learned and comfortable
4.)  we do what makes us feel more at ease with the other person

There are some people I can't stand being around, not because they are narcissists, but because they have very annoying tendencies that I feel unsettled around...people who burp in public, interrupt others, are downright rude, laugh constantly at things that aren't funny, make sick jokes, talk about getting drunk, smoke, etc...those are the people, whom, this year, I, Laura, am asking God to help me not want to CHANGE.  Will I ask Him to help me accept them?  uhhhhhh I'm not quite that far yet, but "tolerate" might be a more accurate term, or at least, the t-shirt my husband gave me, sums it up

Tee Shirt says:  "Lord, keep Your arm around my shoulder and Your hand over my mouth."

~Laura