Choosen and Unchoosen

[reallyME]

CB, what it would look like is control to most people.

As soon as the authorities or whomever found that child acting strange as a result of the abuse or from the proof of abuse in the home, cameras would be set up in that home on a day the family did not have knowledge of.  If abuse was seen at that point, the child would be taken from that parent, the parent would be evaluated, diagnosed and put on meds if needed.  The child would not be replaced in that home until the parent showed VISIBLE signs of stability, and those cameras would REMAIN in the home for the rest of the child's time there.  Everyone would be WATCHED if it were up to me...sounds creepy, but N's don't generally get away with things when they realize they are SEEN doing them by someone in authority that has power to really RUIN them in some way...be it loss of job, loss of drivers' license, or loss of children to abuse and forbiddance by law of having any other pregnancies or adoptions as well...it would involve a blacklist of the Narcissists, just like a form that shows child molestors in the area.

Sounds brutal, but in Laura's ideal world, it would go like that.

Lupita, i understand.  The lady I've been counseling has been in the same situation, of feeling guilty if she doesn't honor her parents or punished by God if she doesnt, so she keeps ending up right back with the dysfunctional family and back in her "lost child" role there.  I don't have any easy answers for that, other than to tell you that if you keep going back you will keep "going back wards"

~Laura

[sunblue]

Hi all:

Normally I wouldn't comment on something like this but after reading some of the posts on the board, I feel compelled to offer my two cents about a topic I feel strongly about.

In addition to being an adult child of an N family, I am clinically depressed.  I was diagnosed a while back but in truth, I was depressed from the time I was a young child (it's just that in an N family, nobody noticed or cared to get me any help).  Since my diagnosis, I have been in therapy with a number of different doctors.  I have been on more meds than I can count.  Currently, I am on meds.  The meds don't really help me with my mood or depression, but it helps a little with my energy level so that I no longer have to sleep for 16 or 18 hours like I used to.  I am well-read on the subject (both NPD and depression), having read countless books, articles and research papers.  I have been in both individual and group therapy.  In short, I have tried everything..

My point is this.  It is very frustrating to hear from others who don't experience the same kind of debilitating depression to just "get help". Between the media, TV commercials and the general culture of our society, the prevailing wisdom says that depression (or related anxiety disorders) is highly treatable.  All you need to do is go to therapy and get on meds and you'll get better.  In many cases, this is true.  Many people recover or greatly improved with meds and therapy.  But NOT all.  It is a proven fact that more than 20 percent of those diagnosed fall in the "treatment resistant" category and are not helped by meds and therapy.  It is not for lack of trying on the patient's part.  Yet, time and gain, they hear from others to just "go and get help" or get over it.  

I know because this is the attitude I encounter over and over again.  In our culture, people believe all you have to do is pop the right pill.  It's just not true in every case.  Wouldn't it be great if it were?  No one wishes to live a life of pain.  But sometimes it is beyond their control.

I get extremely frustrated with the attitude that I don't try hard enough or that therapy/meds will fix everything.  I have a "health" brother who is not capable of offering empathy.  He is one of those who believes you just keep trying meds and therapy.  He doesn't want to hear about your feelings or pain or what caused you to be in the place you are.  He simply doesn't want to hear it.  Lots of people are like that.  LOTS.  I've come to believe that part of the reason for this is because people don't know how to deal with problems or issues that are beyond their control or which they can't solve easily.  People like neat and tidy answers and solutions to problems.  Something they can check off their to-do list.

Speaking for myself, as a serious and long-term depressive and adult child of an N family, the one thing that would help the most is a caring person who listens and cares enough to empathize.  It doesn't matter that they can't solve what's wrong.  A little empathy and sympathy goes a long way.  Yes, that might mean listening to the same painful stories over and over again.  Yet, it might mean there's not much progress in therapy.  If someone were diagnosed with cancer, you wouldn't just give up on them because their cancer wasn't getting better.  People have so much empathy for those with visible illnesses like cancer or diabetes, but none for those with mental illnesses.  

If ever there were people who don't need others to give up on them, it's those with mental illness or those like us on the board who are victims of Ns.  

What I've found is that this attitude from people is more about "them" than the person suffering.  They feel frustrated or angry that people don't take their advice or that situations don't improve on their schedule.  In my case, I've felt rejected and betrayed because people refuse to understand what I go through.  They just want it solved.  They don't want to hear about the person's pain or anxiety or hurt.    If they give someone advice and they don't take it, they just give up, quickly justifying their actions of turning away from the person by saying, "Well, I tried.  She/he just wouldn't listen."  How frustrating is that!

I will end my little rant by saying one thing.  Before you judge, before you walk away from someone, before you throw your hands up in disgust, put yourself in that person's shoes.  Really, really try to imagine what it would be like to live your life filled with sadness and depression and despair with no treatment helping.  

As the saying goes, walk a mile in my shoes.

Sorry for the vent.  Just something I felt strongly about.

[CB123]

Sounds brutal, but in Laura's ideal world, it would go like that.

Laura,

It is brutal.  And very, very familiar. 

You arent asking for any concern from me, I realize that.  But your response concerns me.  Several of your responses concern me. 

I don't think I have anything else to offer you at this point.  You seem firmly entrenched in your positions and you have every right to hold them.  But I think I am very clear now about where you are coming from, and I just plain don't have anything else to offer.

CB

[alone48]

Sunblue,

I empathize with you, I had worked in Mental health for over 16 years and only in the last five years have felt severe depression. My friends are not use to it and it makes them uncomfortable. When I cry then first thing they will say "are you on your med?" That was when I was having an honest emotion and this was from Mental Health professionals.I do take them and for the most part they were working, but since the fiasco with N I've had to switch several times. I do relate to what you are saying and I hope no one has to walk in our shoes, there are enough of us wounded as it is.

[reallyME]

No problem CB.

I merely answered a question. 

As far as the dear poster who meds and counseling did not work for, I want you to know that I have heard the people who came to me, I have cried with them, prayed with them, and am still walking with some of them through their pain.

I was telling how it affects me, not demeaning someone who truly CANNOT help it that they are that way. 

You are right that some of us want tidy answers at times, but it's not always cause we just want to be done with you, it's because it is painful to see someone spin wheels for years and years and never get anywhere.  Who would want that for anyone?

I'm sorry you were abused by N's.  I am GLAD you have read about it and at least learned why they were that way.  I have no answers other than what I feel and believe and for you, that is not feasible or doable and it's totally understandable.

Keep on doing the best you can do.  You will be in my prayers along with others who are "treatment resistant"...I can't even imagine.

~Laura

[Lupita]

lollie, I hear you. I lived in the Soviet Union for one year. I rememeber I was told that depression was only for idle people. My grand mother (rest in peace) used to tell me, go wash clothe, clean your house, look for something too do. You have too muhc time in your hands.
I am still depressed. I have heard that I should go volunteer. I work three jobs, play the piano, take dnace lessons. Still I am depressed. Sad and empty.  I do not have time to go volunteer.

[Lupita]

rest my case. the "volunteer" thing has nothing to do with it.

[Leah]

Leah, if you're reading this:
I hope you are able to find what you want. You are a kind soul and you deserve to find happiness on your own terms. If that's a new relationship with a healthy (and let's throw in rich, too!) man, great. If it's just kind of hanging out for a while while you decide what you want, I think that's great, too. I would bet that after all your experience, growth, and understanding, you could probably see an N coming from a mile away. Am I right?

Dear Lollie,

Thank you so much for your kind, encouraging thoughts, and words.  And yes, you are right, I really do believe, now, that I could probably see an N coming from a mile away.

Can't thank you enough really, for the validation, of me, as a person.

Truly appreciated.

Just lately, I have wondered what it would be like to meet someone, a genuinely good nice kind man.  There, I have bravely said it out loud!!

Every good wish and blessing to you,

Love, Leah